Holy Ego Check... DME Arcs and VOR Holds

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Last week I did all the GPS approaches and it was like taking candy from a baby. easy peasy

Today it was VOR only which worked okay until we went missed and had to go into the hold.
The difference between 100kts in the Grumman and 150kts (Cirrus Slow Flight) in the Cirrus was humbling.

She let me get it all goofed up by flying way too fast and I messed everything up. By the time I got back to the radial for the hold, I was miles past the fix and without any screens to look at, I basically said " I have zero clue where I am right now"

First time I have been over my head in a plane in a long time.

We did a DME arc which I messed up badly but by the end, I totally got it and I could probably do it just fine now that I understand it.

I am taking the written (for a second time :( ) in January and I plan to fly IR to rough river in April.

Being a student again is really hard. I came home and slept for 2 hours.

At any rate I thought I was a good pilot. today I kept apologizing to my CFI for being the worst pilot ever.
 
Hey man, you aren't the only one that's gone through that sort of thing during instrument training.
We've all had those types of days. It's mentally demanding, exhausting, and when it all comes together - as it will - truly satisfying.
 
I’ve been training with a G1000 which has made those tasks relatively easy, but I will probably feel the same as you down the road AFTER gaining my instrument rating. Either GPS will be down or I’ll be in a less technically advanced plane, or perhaps both. Good on you and your instructor for working on it now.
 
DME arcs are hard when you do them purely with the VOR. Of course, legally, you can fly with with the VOR tuned and then use the GPS for primary. Also, they aren't supposed to be tested anymore. They are great practice though and you will get it.
 
Both the VOR missed/hold and the DME arc using nothing but a VOR/DME are not difficult. The key is using the proper technique which is easily briefed on the ground. Hang in there.
 
I’ve had my PPL for a little over 2 months. Just starting IFR ground training. It makes me dizzy just studying it. I can only imagine
 
My CFII in an accelerated course said you will have a day where you suck. First several days were cake, getting close to checkride, had a day where it all sucked, and really sucked. After that it all settled in and was good from then on.

I know exactly what you mean about not sleeping well.
 
It happens.

turns out the best IFR tip I ever gave may be "slow down." It was to a pilot transitioning from a PA28 to an A36. A month later he contacted me to say he got flummoxed on an approach in actual, could hear me whisper in his ear, "why don't you slow down?" and he caught up.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
It happens.

turns out the best IFR tip I ever gave may be "slow down."...
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth!

I did my IR, CFII and ATP before GPS was really a thing. Flew the VOR with a KNS80 which was the best thing in the world since I could "remotely place" a VOR at another location.

DME arc? yep. DME holds, yep. NDB approach? That too (push the head, pull the tail.)

Flying at cruise speed versus approach speed is a lot different. Even 120kts versus 90 makes a difference!
 
N1120A said:
DME arcs are hard when you do them purely with the VOR. Of course, legally, you can fly with with the VOR tuned and then use the GPS for primary. Also, they aren't supposed to be tested anymore. They are great practice though and you will get it.
Click to expand...

Common misunderstanding. The applicant is expected to be able to fly them, and they're still tested. They must be charted and available, so if there are none in the area in which the checkride is taking place, they will not be demonstrated.
 
k9medic said:
DME arc? yep. DME holds, yep. NDB approach? That too (push the head, pull the tail.)
Click to expand...

Sounds like my CFII checkride from many moons ago. NDB holds (published missed from an NDB approach) and single receiver intersection holds were the order of the day. That didn't seem particularly challenging at the time; it was just how we flew. That said, I don't miss it. Very happy with GPS.
 
This is one of those posts that has just a few words but contains TONS of insight...

1) Slow down...
2)You will hear your CFII and the tidbits for ever in the cockpit. I still hear my CFI (same guy I did my instruments with as well) on every approach...aim point...airspeed...aim point...airspeed...
3) Slow down


midlifeflyer said:
It happens.

turns out the best IFR tip I ever gave may be "slow down." It was to a pilot transitioning from a PA28 to an A36. A month later he contacted me to see he got flummoxed on an approach in actual, could hear me whisper in his ear, "why don't you slow down?" and he caught up.
Click to expand...
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Last week I did all the GPS approaches and it was like taking candy from a baby. easy peasy

Today it was VOR only which worked okay until we went missed and had to go into the hold.
The difference between 100kts in the Grumman and 150kts (Cirrus Slow Flight) in the Cirrus was humbling.

She let me get it all goofed up by flying way too fast and I messed everything up. By the time I got back to the radial for the hold, I was miles past the fix and without any screens to look at, I basically said " I have zero clue where I am right now"

First time I have been over my head in a plane in a long time.

We did a DME arc which I messed up badly but by the end, I totally got it and I could probably do it just fine now that I understand it.

I am taking the written (for a second time :( ) in January and I plan to fly IR to rough river in April.

Being a student again is really hard. I came home and slept for 2 hours.

At any rate I thought I was a good pilot. today I kept apologizing to my CFI for being the worst pilot ever.
Click to expand...

BTDT. You’ll be fine.
 
I couldn’t do any kind of approach at 150 knots. Thank goodness I fly a Mooney, which will happily fly at 90 knots. Makes those things way easier.
 
The field where my checkride was had a VOR-A approach with associated VOR hold on the missed. Only a few miles off the field. We spent countless lessons over that damn VOR.
Brief brief brief. Talk it out. Verbalize the next few steps.
If you are sitting around waiting you are behind. So easy to be waiting for the next step then get caught with pants down after you pass that step.
Go back out and hit it again and again.
 
benyflyguy said:
The field where my checkride was had a VOR-A approach with associated VOR hold on the missed. Only a few miles off the field. We spent countless lessons over that damn VOR.
Brief brief brief. Talk it out. Verbalize the next few steps.
If you are sitting around waiting you are behind. So easy to be waiting for the next step then get caught with pants down after you pass that step.
Go back out and hit it again and again.
Click to expand...

Same...

It was this one: https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1912/pdf/00389VA.PDF
 
There are navigation simulator web pages available where you can "fly" using different navaids. I'd recommend using them to practice your VOR--map-less--navigation and procedures.

I used them with both primary and instrument students when I was teaching back in 2009/10 and they worked very well and are free! This is the one I used back then. There might be others as well.

http://www.luizmonteiro.com/learning_vor_sim.aspx
 
Rgbeard said:
Why are you in such a hurry on an instrument approach, and calling 150kts Slow Flight?

I see you using words, but do you know what they mean?
Click to expand...
If you ain’t clackin’, you’re slackin’;)
 
You are discovering the benefits to learning without a screen. The ability to quickly discern where your butt is in space without a screen is fundamental to being a safe instrument pilot. Even on the jet I currently fly with a 6 panel glass cockpit there are times when it’s degraded to no map on the working screens.
Rock on buddy.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah, you get there pretty quick. Go play with the VOR/DME RWY 35 at Durant DUA.
Click to expand...
Ugh. Never saw that before. Hold right over the field?!? That will get pretty quick. Why is runway NOTAMed closed? What they doing ?
This is the one i had to do. Like others said slowing down was key as well as flying longer procedure turn legs. 2D614EA6-EF5E-404E-933D-72464002764B.png
 
DME arcs were weird for me. Reading about them I was all WTF are these books trying to say. Then I did them in the plane and they were strangely simple. All the literature made it sound like you had to do all this stuff when you can just literally watch the dme and when it goes .1 out turn back in.

The instrument rating is way harder than actually operating in the system. You'll be glad to have it though. Takes stress off traveling cause you can get around most wx.
 
There was no GPS when I did all my instrument training and teaching as a CFII. I flew it all with a six pack, two OBS and a fixed card ADF.

Eventually I was lucky enough to fly some nicer airplanes with HSI, RNAV (VOR/DME) and a LORAN system. It was disorienting at first and the most important skill to develop is to visualize your position in space relative to all those fixes...

I never had trouble with DME arcs because I could visualize my position on the arc regardless of my heading.

Much later, when I transitioned into glass cockpits, the moving map (course up, of course!) and the flight director made it all trivial and my scan went from zig zagging all over the cockpit to covering a tiny area the size of a playing card. Visualizing your location in space is still critical to staying ahead of the flow of events!

In a short time you will look back at these days and be amazed at how much easier it is!
 
Rgbeard said:
Why are you in such a hurry on an instrument approach, and calling 150kts Slow Flight?

I see you using words, but do you know what they mean?
Click to expand...
Um... do you realize he is an aviation satirist? He knows words and uses them quite well.

Slow down ;) It helps recognize the tongue-in-cheek part of comments,
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Standard for airports with an on-field VOR (or NDB). Not that difficult.
Click to expand...
Yep. Used to be VERY common with on-field VOR or NDB. Way back, that is how they did their instrument "let downs" based on an A/N range!

I took my instrument checkride in 1985 in a C-310E. Avionics were two VORs, one ADF, and NO DME. I hadn't even flown an airplane with DME at that point. I did do LDA and SDF approaches. At least it made it simple (though I didn't know it at the time) since there wasn't anything else they could test me on!

Now it's mostly ILSs with an occasional RNP or GLS thrown in... Which is all just fine with me!
 
Larry in TN said:
Yep. Used to be VERY common with on-field VOR or NDB. Way back, that is how they did their instrument "let downs" based on an A/N range!

I took my instrument checkride in 1985 in a C-310E. Avionics were two VORs, one ADF, and NO DME. I hadn't even flown an airplane with DME at that point.
Click to expand...
Me too (n a 172) and it was 7 years later.
 
steingar said:
I couldn’t do any kind of approach at 150 knots. Thank goodness I fly a Mooney, which will happily fly at 90 knots. Makes those things way easier.
Click to expand...

Sure you can. Do everything in time rather than distance.
 
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