Holds: How common are they?

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sixpacker

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Sixpacker
The discussion on setting up custom holds in the G1000 got me thinking: Just how common are holds these days? I fly quite a bit commercially and it seems that at least in the airline world that your flight is more likely to be delayed or slowed down instead of holding at the destination. In GA I've personally never had a hold, now granted my hours are much lower than many of you but I am flying 250 hours per year and at least in the last six years I've never had to fly a hold not associated with an IAP (besides training). I've been delayed, vectored, or voluntarily diverted myself after being told about issues up ahead, but no holds for me yet.

So in the last few years, let's say (I'm not interested in the situation 15 years ago or 50 years ago), how many holds have you had and can you describe what the situation was?
 
Around DFW on a real bad weather day the busy airports can easily get into holds. You only have four arrival corridors with the NE and NW being the busiest, it's easy to get a traffic jam. To your point, knowing the above, if I am arriving from the East on the NE corridor and I am told to expect a hold, I can switch arrivals down to the SE and get in without a hold as long as aircraft are landing consistently.

When it goes below mins, with a static weather system, I divert. Paying a cab fare is cheaper than screwing around turning the hobbs.
 
In my experience; places where ATC isn't able or authorized to use radar vectors for sequencing holds are not uncommon.
 
I think I've only had one "for real" hold, flying in to KAPC.
 
They happen, particularily if something unexpected happened. Usually weather is a common cause of holds. Generally controllers will try to adjust speeds and vector as a substitute for assigning holds.

In GA, I've seen them when the guy in front of me forgot to cancel IFR after landing, so I got to hold at the FAF.

I've also forced another pilot into a hold when I lost my alternator in IMC and declared an emergency to get down on the ground first.

Emergencies are common causes of holds. Generally because in an emergency the controller gets busy and its easier to park folks in a hold until things get sorted out.

In the airlines holding means $$. With modern flow control the waiting can be done on the ground. Airliners just don't get holds very often unless unexpected weather, emergency, etc., messes things up.
 
I've never held (well, outside of training anyway) while flying a GA airplane, but I also don't fly much IFR either.

In the commercial world, I usually hold once or twice a month, especially in the winter. I think a lot of it is dependent on where you are. In the northeast - specifically when the weather gets crappy - holding isn't uncommon.
 
My experience reflects what BradZ said. Also, since my home 'drome is a "1-in/1-out" airport, it's not at all uncommon when the weather is down to get held until the preceding plane(s) are on the ground or at least cancels. All in all, flying about 400 hours a year, I probably get an ATC-directed hold about once a month.
 
Got a hold ,when I was a new IFR pilot,@ksby. Not crazy about them.
 
Twice in the last two years, both going into a 1 in/1 out airport.
 
Only times I had to hold was a bad weather day and when 3 other planes were doing the same approach. Both times they had us stacked up at the same fix. Pretty much agree with everything BradZ said.
 
They are good for practice. Virtually every missed approach ends in a hold. Do a few to keep currency.
 
Depends where you are and what kind of weather you operate in. In light, non convective, IFR layers, it's rare. In 3 years in California where I used IFR, I never got one. In busy airspace at push times with a lot of convective activity, yeah, they happen and you better be ready to deal with it.
 
When I was training for the instrument rating, one afternoon while doing approaches in actual, I asked my CFII how often he gets holds in real life. He said that with 24/7 ATC services and excellent radar coverage around here, holds just don't happen.

Not 10 minutes later, we got a five-minute hold. It was actually pretty cool, as it was unexpected and in actual on a clearance. Great training value and a reminder that it's like Richard Collins said in a video: What you get is what you get, not what you think you're gonna get.
 
I've had exactly one-going into PHX in an Arrow. I was IFR and it was CAVU.
 
They are common enough you should be able to do one without the G1000.

Within the last couple months, as a full time IFR pilot I've done a few

I've gone into the hold for a lap or two due to ATCs capabilities, they'll drop me into the approach WAY high, instead of dive bombing onto the approach I'll decend in the hold.

I've had weather change on me and went into the hold while I check other options out.

I've only gone into the hold after a missed during training, as we can't shoot a approach if the weather is below mins.
 
James331 said:
They are common enough you should be able to do one without the G1000.

Within the last couple months, as a full time IFR pilot I've done a few

I've gone into the hold for a lap or two due to ATCs capabilities, they'll drop me into the approach WAY high, instead of dive bombing onto the approach I'll decend in the hold.

I've had weather change on me and went into the hold while I check other options out.

I've only gone into the hold after a missed during training, as we can't shoot a approach if the weather is below mins.
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So for those two holds, did you request them?
 
Indeed, I did tell ATC I would be doing a lap or two.

As for being put into the hold, it's been quite a while.


So what type of flying are you doing where you're logging 250hrs a year?
 
James331 said:
Indeed, I did tell ATC I would be doing a lap or two.

As for being put into the hold, it's been quite a while.


So what type of flying are you doing where you're logging 250hrs a year?
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I fly for personal enjoyment but also use my plane every opportunity to fly myself on business trips. We also have a beach property we like to fly to often. And then I do silly things just for the excuse to fly like this weekend my wife and daughter have an event at a city a couple of hundred miles away so I will drop them off on Friday then come visit them on Saturday and Sunday :D (well someone has to look after the dogs right? ;)). And take detours on the way there and back. That will be a good 10 hours right there. :lol: I get the shakes if I don't fly every week.
 
sixpacker said:
I fly for personal enjoyment but also use my plane every opportunity to fly myself on business trips. We also have a beach property we like to fly to often. And then I do silly things just for the excuse to fly like this weekend my wife and daughter have an event at a city a couple of hundred miles away so I will drop them off on Friday then come visit them on Saturday and Sunday :D (well someone has to look after the dogs right? ;)). And take detours on the way there and back. That will be a good 10 hours right there. :lol: I get the shakes if I don't fly every week.
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That sounds like fun right there!
 
sixpacker said:
So in the last few years, let's say (I'm not interested in the situation 15 years ago or 50 years ago), how many holds have you had and can you describe what the situation was?
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One time for me. I was going into a small airport for a fuel stop on cross country. That fuel stop just happened to have the cheapest fuel in the state. I was held for about a lap. The guy ahead of me was also just going in for fuel.
 
I was told to expect one a couple of years ago, but then whatever was going to cause it changed and they cleared me direct.

About a month ago I was going into a 1 in 1 out airport right at the mins with a plane just ahead of me on the approach. I figured I was was going to get a hold then, but I got a vector a little away from the airport, and a few minutes later I was cleared for the approach.

I did hear the controller give the guys in front of me a telephone number to cancel on, and that there was a plane right behind them. I assumed they must have called as soon as they touched down. I also called as soon as I got on the ground. It is always a little odd when the same controller you were just talking to on the radio answers the phone.

Other than those I have never had an actual hold. I fly quite a bit for work, and I file everywhere. But then again, most of the time I get a visual approach.
 
And a follow up, anybody ever gotten a hold that was not a direct entry? Procedure turns don't count.
 
Nearly got a hold from N90 (NY TRACON)...everyone ahead of me was getting them. I listened to their holding instructions, visualized the hold, worked out the hold entry...I was READY! This was the big moment....I was not going to mess it up and besmirch the GA community.

"fly hdg 090"

"oh...heading 090."

"fly hdg 180"

"*sniffle* heading 180."

"fly hdg 270"

"heading 270, is there a reason you didn't put me in the hold?"

"yeah, we don't issue holds to the little guys."

Zero confidence in GA aircraft at N90. I'm guessing it's based on their past experience.
 
coma24 said:
Nearly got a hold from N90 (NY TRACON)...everyone ahead of me was getting them. I listened to their holding instructions, visualized the hold, worked out the hold entry...I was READY! This was the big moment....I was not going to mess it up and besmirch the GA community.

"fly hdg 090"

"oh...heading 090."

"fly hdg 180"

"*sniffle* heading 180."

"fly hdg 270"

"heading 270, is there a reason you didn't put me in the hold?"

"yeah, we don't issue holds to the little guys."

Zero confidence in GA aircraft at N90. I'm guessing it's based on their past experience.
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I have never had this happen quite so obviously, but I have definitely suspected that some of the vectors off my course have been to move me out of the way instead of issuing a hold.
 
Reedster said:
About a month ago I was going into a 1 in 1 out airport right at the mins with a plane just ahead of me on the approach. I figured I was was going to get a hold then, but I got a vector a little away from the airport, and a few minutes later I was cleared for the approach.
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When I hear another plane getting vectored and then cleared for an approach I usually slow down (if I have no speed restriction), or sometimes if they have an RNAV approach I will ask for the IAF on one of the ends of the T's if they have one to buy myself more time. It usually seems to work out for me. No point in hurrying up to wait.

I also just realized that I HAVE had holds before: VFR holds in Aspen. :D When they're busy and the wind favors 33 the tower will sometimes park you off over the golf course to the south east of the field and have you do a few circuits until whatever jet traffic is coming or going is out of the way. Not really a hold. :lol: But as close as I've have got to one.
 
coma24 said:
Nearly got a hold from N90 (NY TRACON)...everyone ahead of me was getting them. I listened to their holding instructions, visualized the hold, worked out the hold entry...I was READY! This was the big moment....I was not going to mess it up and besmirch the GA community.



"fly hdg 090"



"oh...heading 090."



"fly hdg 180"



"*sniffle* heading 180."



"fly hdg 270"



"heading 270, is there a reason you didn't put me in the hold?"



"yeah, we don't issue holds to the little guys."



Zero confidence in GA aircraft at N90. I'm guessing it's based on their past experience.
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Could it be that smaller planes' lower speeds give them enough spacing that vectors work just as well as holds?
 
I see some of the lack of controller confidence in GA. I fly an arrival with a crossing restriction. It is always the same at the same fix. I get it dialed up into VNAV way in advance and just wait for the instruction. They give me the instruction and I confirm. So I keep cruising along waiting for my 500FPM top of descent point. About 50% of the time they question why I haven't started down, or confirm I've got the instruction, or they just have me descend.

Sad lack of confidence and irritating to have VNAV and not be able to use it.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I see some of the lack of controller confidence in GA. I fly an arrival with a crossing restriction. It is always the same at the same fix. I get it dialed up into VNAV way in advance and just wait for the instruction. They give me the instruction and I confirm. So I keep cruising along waiting for my 500FPM top of descent point. About 50% of the time they question why I haven't started down, or confirm I've got the instruction, or they just have me descend.

Sad lack of confidence and irritating to have VNAV and not be able to use it.
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Out of curiosity, so I can learn from it, what arrival?
 
sixpacker said:
When I hear another plane getting vectored and then cleared for an approach I usually slow down (if I have no speed restriction), or sometimes if they have an RNAV approach I will ask for the IAF on one of the ends of the T's if they have one to buy myself more time. It usually seems to work out for me. No point in hurrying up to wait.
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Slowing down is a good idea. I remember on this approach, I was coming in from the West. The wind and the ceiling favored the west runway. I heard the plane in front of me get the full approach, so I was actually probably going a little faster than I needed, I was already flying out of my way plus the tail wind, and of course being right at the mins plays a bit too, it had been dropping all night.

It worked out, but trying to hurry the approach could easily have been counter productive.
 
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Alexb2000 said:
I see some of the lack of controller confidence in GA. I fly an arrival with a crossing restriction. It is always the same at the same fix. I get it dialed up into VNAV way in advance and just wait for the instruction. They give me the instruction and I confirm. So I keep cruising along waiting for my 500FPM top of descent point. About 50% of the time they question why I haven't started down, or confirm I've got the instruction, or they just have me descend.

Sad lack of confidence and irritating to have VNAV and not be able to use it.
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I used to get this quite a bit from Chicago Approach. Cross 20 miles south east of the JOT VOR at 4,000. Pilots's discretion. I would do the same thing figure out a nice 500 ft min and invariably they would issue a descend and maintain or an expedite descent. I always wanted to say you did say it was at my discretion, but figured I would lose that battle.

I started programming the VNAV for 1,000 ft per minute which seems to make them happy.
 
ateamer said:
Could it be that smaller planes' lower speeds give them enough spacing that vectors work just as well as holds?
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Probably. I have been told to slow down 20 or 30 knots for sequencing.

What always cracks me up is when they mention there is some big iron behind me and to keep the speed up.
 
sixpacker said:
I fly for personal enjoyment but also use my plane every opportunity to fly myself on business trips. We also have a beach property we like to fly to often. And then I do silly things just for the excuse to fly like this weekend my wife and daughter have an event at a city a couple of hundred miles away so I will drop them off on Friday then come visit them on Saturday and Sunday :D (well someone has to look after the dogs right? ;)). And take detours on the way there and back. That will be a good 10 hours right there. :lol: I get the shakes if I don't fly every week.
Click to expand...

We have a lot in common, I'm a hair trigger to get those wheels in the wells! :yes:
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Out of curiosity, so I can learn from it, what arrival?
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Coming back from NM going into KADS I get the sps.gregs7 arrival. Basically I go direct Witchita Falls (SPS). About SPS I am told cross GREGS at 7. Gregs is also the handoff point between Ft. Worth Center and Approach, so the restriction is part of the transition agreement between them. That may be why they worry, they don't want to hand me off to approach outside of the agreement parameters. In the descent I will switch to approach, they will always just descend me further on the first contact.

Another point is that I am usually at least 11K sometimes 21K. Bowie (UKW) is the arrival point for jets going into DFW. They cross there at 11K, so they always want to make sure I am well below the DFW inbounds.

Here is the arrival.

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1501/00106GREGS.PDF
 
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