Holding? Rules of thumb?

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sacbluesman

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sacbluesman
So I'm a couple weeks into my IR training and about to get into holding patterns this weekend. After looking at it on paper for a min or so, I can figure out which hold pattern would be appropriate however thats as far as it goes. I'm having a difficult time translating this while flying.

There has to be an easier way of determing hold entries than to draw it, then lay my pencil out on the paper or on the heading indicator to figure which side of the "line" i'm on.

Is there any words of wisdom or tricks that you guys could share that will help me out? I will be discussing this with my CFI however I'm just looking to get a little more understanding before we actually start.
 
You start doing it that way (drawing the pattern), and you do it over and over. Eventually, you'll realize you know the right answer before you start drawing, and then you can stop doing the drawings.

For those studying for the FOI written, that's called the Law of Exercise.
 
Turn the shortest direction for the outbound leg. Time a minute, or a minute and a half. During that time, decide which way to turn back to the inbound leg, then do that.

Draw the hold on the chart. If you already know where you are, what hold entry you need should be obvious.

The 70 degree rule is ridiculous. It's also not official. See what's the easiest way to enter, based on your direction from the fix, and do that.
 
One rule of thumb, however, is when in doubt between two entry methods, turn to the windward side of the holding course.
 
I like what Machado says, whatever you do to enter makes sure you turn so as to stay within the protected airspace.
 
DouglasBader said:
The 70 degree rule is ridiculous. It's also not official. See what's the easiest way to enter, based on your direction from the fix, and do that.
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What's complicated about figuring out if your present heading is within 70 degrees left or right of the holding inbound course heading?

The second the student pilot is able to visualize the quadrant he's coming to the holding fix from, the second the cosmic nature of holding entry disappears. It's a simple exercise in figuring out reciprocal headings. Drawing the hold is nothing more than doing this without having it displayed in a GPS overlay. I teach my students to pay attention to the heading on the bottom of their compass/DG/HSI/EHSI/whatever. Once they figure out their incoming quadrant, much of this confusion goes away, as most students actually do find the decision making matrix on entry type rather intuitive.

Most people simply have trouble figuring out what direction they're coming to the fix from, hence the prevalence of the cartoon drawing thing. I attribute it to the "track up" culture. Watch a student draw his/her hold cartoon. 99% of the time they'll draw it north up. Their brains have been conditioned to think 000deg UP. But their aircraft heading and their Mk-I eyeballs is always oriented "track up". So they lock up, and spend an inordinate amount of time securing a solution to that positional awareness piece. If their brain was given raw north up information, they would have the solution shacked instantaneously. Since the world is being observed "track up" they need to re-cage the information to accommodate the north up format. That's where having a mechanical flow for figuring out reciprocal headings makes the world of difference. Eventually they become so proficient at "flipping the world north up" they don't even need to draw it, as Ron alluded to.
 
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One thing my CFII taught me was:

N ose
I n
T eardrop

N ose
O ut
Parallel

Anyone else use that?
 
Thanks for the responses! I will give these a go.

hindsight2020 said:
Most people simply have trouble figuring out what direction they're coming to the fix from, hence the prevalence of the cartoon drawing thing. I attribute it to the "track up" culture. Watch a student draw his/her hold cartoon. 99% of the time they'll draw it north up. Their brains have been conditioned to think 000deg UP. But their aircraft heading and their Mk-I eyeballs is always oriented "track up". So they lock up, and spend an inordinate amount of time securing a solution to that positional awareness piece. If their brain was given raw north up information, they would have the solution shacked instantaneously. Since the world is being observed "track up" they need to re-cage the information to accommodate the north up format. That's where having a mechanical flow for figuring out reciprocal headings makes the world of difference. Eventually they become so proficient at "flipping the world north up" they don't even need to draw it, as Ron alluded to.
Click to expand...

This is exactly my issue...
 
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Ron Levy said:
You start doing it that way (drawing the pattern), and you do it over and over. Eventually, you'll realize you know the right answer before you start drawing, and then you can stop doing the drawings.
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Like Ron, I'm a firm believer in drawing the pattern and your position in relation to it. After teaching the process on the ground before doing any holds in an aircraft a few times, I'm convinced that the appropriate form of entry becomes completely obvious even if you never heard of the FAA's recommended methodology.
 
What's complicated about figuring out if your present heading is within 70 degrees left or right of the holding inbound course heading?
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The math. It's unnecessary.

Look at what's needed, then do it. Very simple.

Some are given to think that if the intercept is 71 degrees, a different entry must be used. Ridiculous.

Look at the shortest way to enter the hold and do that, then figure out which way to turn on the inbound. Done.
 
I used all those rules of thumb......then my instructor said just use the plate you are working off of......

You have the plate in your hands. All the plates are configured north up so use your thumb to simulate the direction you are approaching from. Ok, I am on a south heading so I am approaching from the north and will cross the VOR with the best entry being a teardrop. I note my direction of travel/entry by the red line on the approach plate on the right.


The teardrop entry seems pretty easy with the outbound radial of 234* I enter at 204 say 200*. I start the timer as I pass the VOR holding 200* and at one minute I start a standard rate turn to the right to the inbound course of 54 say 55*. I clear and reset the timer and I am inbound for 1 minute which almost falls dead on as I right turn back out on the 234* radial. Holding airspeed at 90 kts and altitude along with heading and timing was a bit busy at first but after once or twice around the hold I settled in.
 
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EppyGA said:
Geez Ron you want me to quote the whole section of the book for you. :rofl::rofl:
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Whatever -- I just find the statement "make sure you turn so as to stay within the protected airspace" to be of very little practical value. I was hoping Rod had more to offer than that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whatever -- I just find the statement "make sure you turn so as to stay within the protected airspace" to be of very little practical value. I was hoping Rod had more to offer than that.
Click to expand...

Obviously he did and I'll not make the mistake of trying to paraphrase anything here again. :rolleyes:
 
sacbluesman said:
Is there any words of wisdom or tricks that you guys could share that will help me out? I will be discussing this with my CFI however I'm just looking to get a little more understanding before we actually start.
Click to expand...

Holding is a rare event while flying IFR. I have only had to hold once in actual conditions and in that case, I didn't draw it out, I just entered the hold in the most appropriate manner. I couldn't tell you what type of entry it was and off the top of my head I couldn't name all of the entry types. However, when I do practice holds every 6 months, I draw it out and enter in the most logical way so as to stay inside the protected area.

Ryan
 
Ron Levy said:
I hardly think that's obvious from what you posted originally.

At least do Rod the courtesy of not quoting him if you're not going to quote him accurately and with appropriate completeness.
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Oh for God's sake, Ron. I'm sure anyone reading the rule of thumb knows Rod sells books and knows how to find them.
 
I have the plane booked for Saturday and Sunday. I will know for sure tomorrow evening. I'm trying to get an extra body in the plane...preferably of the female variety. Otherwise, I will have to have John entertain me.
 
sacbluesman said:
I have the plane booked for Saturday and Sunday. I will know for sure tomorrow evening. I'm trying to get an extra body in the plane...preferably of the female variety. Otherwise, I will have to have John entertain me.
Click to expand...

The John we met? Or a different one? Anyways good to hear you might join us. I love that we are building a sort of POA west coast list of pilots, and young ones too!
 
When I was getting my IR, an old airline pilot showed me a simple rule of thumb. Actually he called it right thumb, right hand pattern, left thumb left hand pattern. His method was to use your thumbs. I will describe the method for a RH pattern, but the LH pattern is the same, just a mirror image using your left thumb.

1) Determine the OB heading of the holding pattern.
2) Place your right thumb on your DG at the RH side at the 90 degree point so it covers up about 20 degrees towards the top of DG.
3) Mentally draw a line on the DG from the tip of your thumb, thru the center of the DG to the other side.
4) Locate the OB heading of the holding pattern on your DG.
5) If the OB heading falls between the top of your thumb and the top of the DG, the entry is a teardrop entry.
6) If the OB heading falls between the top of the DG and the line you drew mentally thru the center of the DG on the LH side, it is a parallel entry.
7) Otherwise it is a direct entry.
 
GMascelli said:
I used all those rules of thumb......then my instructor said just use the plate you are working off of......

You have the plate in your hands. All the plates are configured north up so use your thumb to simulate the direction you are approaching from. Ok, I am on a south heading so I am approaching from the north and will cross the VOR with the best entry being a teardrop. I note my direction of travel/entry by the red line on the approach plate on the right.


The teardrop entry seems pretty easy.
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Looking at the plate makes it easy. So does GPS prompting you which way or when to turn. But in both cases, the drawing that a few of us mentioned has already taken place, and with GPS, you don't even have to locate yourself!. - mostly because you don't have to do the drawing. But much of the training in this area is using unpublished holds at VORs with the holding area defined off a non-airway radial in order for the student to lean situtional awareness. And the best way I've see to do that is what the charts and GPS make so easy with published holds - having them drawn out.
 
Holding is a rare event while flying IFR.
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That really depends where and when you fly.

I've been put in holds on final approach into Chicago, while on an arrival into Amsterdam of New York, outside Lewiston, Idaho, over Kabul, Afghanistan, and almost any other place you care to name.

One could opine that we spend a lot more time flying cross country than holding, and one would hope that's true. It doesn't make holding "rare," however, and many procedures, and most all charts, have holding patterns depicted as part of the procedure. Holds are integral to instrument flight.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Looking at the plate makes it easy. So does GPS prompting you which way or when to turn. But in both cases, the drawing that a few of us mentioned has already taken place, and with GPS, you don't even have to locate yourself!. - mostly because you don't have to do the drawing. But much of the training in this area is using unpublished holds at VORs with the holding area defined off a non-airway radial in order for the student to lean situtional awareness. And the best way I've see to do that is what the charts and GPS make so easy with published holds - having them drawn out.
Click to expand...


I'm in agreement with your post. Lacking a GPS or it being failed, the chart or in my case the iPad is your friend for plotting it out. I think it gets easier to "see" the entry after flying IFR long enough but I do remember in the beginning of the rating having to draw everything out.

In the mid-atlantic it's more often than not a published hold, at least in my few years experience. Now my CFII I fly with loves to torture and he will pick a random fix and role play atc. He always keeps it interesting.

I should add here how much I do enjoy having the 530 in the panel....
 
Holding may be a rare event in many IFR flights, but holding pattern entries are becoming more and more common as the FAA seems to be increasing the use of a holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn in new instrument approaches.
 
DouglasBader said:
That really depends where and when you fly.

I've been put in holds on final approach into Chicago, while on an arrival into Amsterdam of New York, outside Lewiston, Idaho, over Kabul, Afghanistan, and almost any other place you care to name.

One could opine that we spend a lot more time flying cross country than holding, and one would hope that's true. It doesn't make holding "rare," however, and many procedures, and most all charts, have holding patterns depicted as part of the procedure. Holds are integral to instrument flight.
Click to expand...

Point taken. I should have said holding has been a rare event for the type of IFR flying that I do.
 
Ron Levy said:
Holding may be a rare event in many IFR flights, but holding pattern entries are becoming more and more common as the FAA seems to be increasing the use of a holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn in new instrument approaches.
Click to expand...

I like the 80/260 to reverse course. Nobody uses it so it gets uniqueness points plus it has to be the quickest way to turn around time wise. (maybe some sort of hammerhead manuver would be quicker)

Back to the point: I was unaware the FAA was replacing the barb with HPILPTs. Is that just your observation or is there some document they put out?
 
Captain said:
Back to the point: I was unaware the FAA was replacing the barb with HPILPTs. Is that just your observation or is there some document they put out?
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It is a written requirement for any RNAV approach that requires a course reversal.

Conventional or tear drop procedure turns may still be used for ground-based nav approaches.
 
GMascelli said:
Lacking a GPS or it being failed, the chart or in my case the iPad is your friend for plotting it out. I think it gets easier to "see" the entry after flying IFR long enough but I do remember in the beginning of the rating having to draw everything out.
Click to expand...
Now there's an iPad feature that would beat all the synthetic vision stuff - being able to write on the charts.
 
Captain said:
I like the 80/260 to reverse course.
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That's great if you arrive on an opposite course, but not so good with many other arrival angles.

Back to the point: I was unaware the FAA was replacing the barb with HPILPTs. Is that just your observation or is there some document they put out?
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Just my observation. When I started flying IFR 40 years ago, barb PTs were the order of the day, and HPILPT's were unusual. Today, if I want to find a barb PT for my trainee to fly, it can be a real hunt for one nearby, but HPILPT's are a dime a dozen. I've had a few cases where the only "real" barb PT they flew before their IR practical test was in the sim (which I can put anywhere in the country), and there were no barb PT's around to be flown on the test. My guess on the "why" is the FAA has discovered that in crowded airspace where obstructions aren't an issue (thus, no necessity to start high and dive down into a hole) they can make the protected airspace a lot smaller with a HPILPT than with a "standard" barb PT -- something like 3 miles shorter, if I recall my TERPS correctly.
 
In the mid-atlantic it's more often than not a published hold, at least in my few years experience.
Click to expand...

I've crossed the Atlantic many times, but have yet to see a holding pattern, depicted or otherwise.

It's really contrary to the rules.
 
John Collins said:
When I was getting my IR, an old airline pilot showed me a simple rule of thumb. Actually he called it right thumb, right hand pattern, left thumb left hand pattern. His method was to use your thumbs. I will describe the method for a RH pattern, but the LH pattern is the same, just a mirror image using your left thumb.

1) Determine the OB heading of the holding pattern.
2) Place your right thumb on your DG at the RH side at the 90 degree point so it covers up about 20 degrees towards the top of DG.
3) Mentally draw a line on the DG from the tip of your thumb, thru the center of the DG to the other side.
4) Locate the OB heading of the holding pattern on your DG.
5) If the OB heading falls between the top of your thumb and the top of the DG, the entry is a teardrop entry.
6) If the OB heading falls between the top of the DG and the line you drew mentally thru the center of the DG on the LH side, it is a parallel entry.
7) Otherwise it is a direct entry.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I illustrate in THE COMPLETE ADVANCED PILOT. A thumb rule that uses a thumb....

Bob Gardner
 
Here is what I was taught:

If the inbound course to the fix is ahead and to your left, parallel.
If the inbound course to the fix is ahead and to your right, teardrop.
If the inbound course to the fix is behind, direct.

I know how to do this and think I have typed it correctly. That's what I use. It is simple, doesn't require a lot of math or figuring, and keeps you in the protected airspace.
 
When I was learning instrument flying I tried a few tricks for determining the "proper" entry (the pencil on the DG, the thumb, drawing it out, etc) and while any one of them seemed to work well for choosing between direct, teardrop, and parallel in the air I often found that even when I knew which entry agreed with the AIM recommendations I had trouble actually flying the entry (e.g. should I turn left or right when I cross the fix, then which way?).

Eventually I figured out how to mentally place a racetrack on the DG face and from that point on it became fairly obvious how to enter the hold and even made it possible to factor the wind in the entry decision. Now that I've got a few moving maps depicting the hold pattern to look at it's even easier:D.
 
bobmrg said:
That's exactly what I illustrate in THE COMPLETE ADVANCED PILOT. A thumb rule that uses a thumb....

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...


I just draw it on paper.

Draw the fix (especially if an intersection)
Draw the radial and the inbound Arrow (so you don't get turned around)
Draw the racetrack and label the leg. (1 minute, 10 NM, whatever)
....

Course, if it is as published, you don't need to do this...

Then mark your position and it is pretty apparent what needs to happen.
 
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