Holding Altitude during Cross Country

darthnomster

darthnomster

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Tiffany and I took our longest cross country to date over the weekend. We flew from Butler County KHAO to Gatlinburg KGKT, had lunch then flew back. I flew down, she flew back. We're each approaching 100 hrs total time.

It was a safe/fun/successful flight, and we're both gaining confidence as we expand our envelopes. We continue to get more experience using flight following and getting our phraseology correct. We diverted to an airport enroute for a bathroom break, and were able to get all of the relevant info arrival info (runways, atis, ctaf) from the 430 without having to refer to the tablet or sectional. These kinds of small victories are fun.

One thing we continue to work on is holding altitude. In calm air, we're both pretty proficient at getting to cruise altitude, selecting the proper RPM power setting and leaning the airplane, and relieve the control pressures with elevator trim (she's better at this than I am) and it will stay there .

Where I feel like I'm constantly fiddling is when we hit thermals or fly over hills/mountains. I feel like I spend too much time looking at the altimeter, and not enough time with other parts of the scan. If I get my head out the window to look for traffic too long, I find myself glancing back to the altimeter to find I've climbed or descended 100 feet or more. I want to get better at this. We're on flight following, and as a courtesy to the controller, and in preparation for future IFR training, I want to be able to hold a damned altitude. Is this something where I need to talk to an instructor and get some tips/dual, or does this just get easier with experience?:dunno:
 
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+- 100 ft is common in turbulence/mountains even under IFR.

Click on the autopilot...? :)
 
darthnomster said:
Tiffany and I took our longest cross country to date over the weekend. We flew from Butler County KHAO to Gatlinburg KGKT, had lunch then flew back. I flew down, she flew back. We're both approaching 100 hrs total time.

It was a safe/fun/successful flight, and we're both gaining confidence as we expand our envelopes. We continue to get more experience using flight following and getting our phraseology correct. We diverted to an airport enroute for a bathroom break, and were able to get all of the relevant info arrival info (runways, atis, ctaf) from the 430 without having to refer to the tablet or sectional. These kinds of small victories are fun.

One thing we continue to work on is holding altitude. In calm air, we're both pretty proficient at getting to cruise altitude, selecting the proper RPM power setting and leaning the airplane, and relieve the control pressures with elevator trim (she's better at this than I am) and it will stay there .

Where I feel like I'm constantly fiddling is when we hit thermals or fly over hills/mountains. I feel like I spend too much time looking at the altimeter, and not enough time with other parts of the scan. If I get my head out the window to look for traffic too long, I find myself glancing back to the altimeter to find I've climbed or descended 100 feet or more. I want to get better at this. We're on flight following, and as a courtesy to the controller, and in preparation for future IFR training, I want to be able to hold a damned altitude. Is this something where I need to talk to an instructor and get some tips/dual, or does this just get easier with experience?:dunno:
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This might be your problem. Remember you are VFR. 90% of your flying is done by outside references. Pick a point outside and keep that point right on the nose, on top of your instruments, or wherever your reference line is. You can get just as much information by looking outside as you can with your instruments. Try covering the altimeter. You'd be surprised how accurate you can fly without it.
 
If you are getting up/downdrafts you will notice that to hold the altitude constant you'll need to vary airspeed, which means your trim setting will change.
 
dans2992 said:
If you are getting up/downdrafts you will notice that to hold the altitude constant you'll need to vary airspeed, which means your trim setting will change.
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Thank you. This is what I'm doing. Nudge a little push or pull as required, adjust the trim wheel, repeat again in 2 minutes. If this is what flying without a two axis AP is about, that's fine. I ENJOY the flying. I just wanted to query the group and find out if there is something I could be doing better. The earlier post about holding altitude by reference to the outside sight picture is frankly something I've never tried. I'll be sure to do so in the future.
 
darthnomster said:
One thing we continue to work on is holding altitude.
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My advice would be don't sweat it. In most common light airplanes (such as e.g. Cessna 172) you cruise far enough at the front of the power curve that you can easily give up airspeed if you start sinking. So, eventually you'll just learn to pull on the yoke a bit, get closer to Vy, and the airplane starts climbing. Now if you get into an updraft, you have to do the opposite and you start speeding. For a wet renter that means you have to pull back on the throttle a bit, to keep the engine short of the red line.

While you're doing that, you're obviously out of the trimmed AoA, and therefore there's a bit of force you have to exert. Resist the temptation to re-trim for the temporary conditions, because as soon as you're out of the downdraft, you have to return to your neutral cruise settings, so it's pointless.

You get used to it. Basically fly around as much as your budget allows, have fun, and soon you'll learn what airplane is trying to do in the updrafts and downdrafts.

BTW, don't fight for every foot of altitude. It's a great way to get tired like a dog. Let it wanter +/- 100 ft, it's no big deal, as long as you're aware and in control.
 
darthnomster said:
Thank you. This is what I'm doing. Nudge a little push or pull as required, adjust the trim wheel, repeat again in 2 minutes. If this is what flying without a two axis AP is about, that's fine. I ENJOY the flying. I just wanted to query the group and find out if there is something I could be doing better. The earlier post about holding altitude by reference to the outside sight picture is frankly something I've never tried. I'll be sure to do so in the future.
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One thing - when it gets really rough you may be better off just holding attitude and letting the altitude vary. Minimizing the pitch changes can make the ride a bit more bearable.
 
paflyer said:
That's great flying over a desert; try it in the Northeast Corridor on FF...
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No thanks ... I'll stick with the southwest.

Last year had a thermal last nearly 10 minutes (nose down, altitiude constant, speed increasing) .... wheeee:goofy:
 
steingar said:
You're VFR. Why do you care?
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In case you're not kidding, I mentioned in the original post that I'm trying to fly as consistent an altitude as possible since I'm on FF, and I'd like the controller to have some confidence that I am where I said I'd be. Also, we're under the CVG bravo shelf, so flying south takes us into the bravo. When that guy tells me to fly 4500 or whatever, I'd like to be as close to that as possible.
 
The altitude indicator tells you what has happened. The rate of climb indicator tells you what is happening.
 
darthnomster said:
In case you're not kidding, I mentioned in the original post that I'm trying to fly as consistent an altitude as possible since I'm on FF, and I'd like the controller to have some confidence that I am where I said I'd be. Also, we're under the CVG bravo shelf, so flying south takes us into the bravo. When that guy tells me to fly 4500 or whatever, I'd like to be as close to that as possible.
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If the FF is giving you worries, dump it. To be honest, I don't use it on many flights because I like to chat with my pax and not have to listen for my tail number on the radio. I have eyes, and so do my pax.

Sorry, flown under lots of Bravos including CVG. CVG is a little trying because of all the damn terrain, but if you give yourself some room it really isn't all that big a deal. For me flying is supposed to be fun, and if there's something that stars killing the fun factor (like worrying about staying precisely on altitude) I'll dump it fast. Let the IFR guys worry about that.

Apologies if that's not what you're looking for, but them's my thoughts.
 
When over mountains if you get pushed up your'e probably going to get sucked down a little further on. You can fight them all day but most of the time just ride with it.
 
The best advice I can give, and what took me a long to figure out is: resist the urge to fiddle with things. Set the power per the book and trim for level flight (or climb/descent as needed). It might take a couple tries to get the trim right if it's really bumpy, but once it's right just leave it alone. Make altitude corrections as needed with the yoke and remember to follow through...if you are 100 feet high and push forward to descend 100 feet, you will gain airspeed. You need to slowly release the nose down pressure as the speed bleeds off or you're going to climb again.
 
Disregard all the naysayers about "eh , its vfr, who cares". You care. That's all that matters.
Now is the time to get to know your vsi.
Coming from 50+ years of practical experience, I was never trained in the pitch control authority of the VSI, but I have learned the absolute authority of pitch control that I get from the VSI that I will attempt to pass it on via internet.
The VSI needle will show an up/down movement exactly the same time as the altimeter - except that the VSI needle will show a larger movement than the altimeter needle.
When your altimeter needle shows a 50' change, your vsi was already broadcasting that change seconds before the altimeter needle moved.t
I look at the VSI needle as being on zero as nose level.
Practice yoke pressures to keep the vsi needle squarely in the center of the zero on the vsi .
Practice in smooth air at keeping the needle in the center of the zero, and applying back/forward pressures to make the needle go up/ down to the top/ bottom of the zero.
Yes, you can do this. Like small delicate elevator movements to fly the attitude indicator - a bar width above or below the horizon line. Which works in smooth air, but in thermals, not so...
So...the VSI actually senses altitude change more effectively than any other instrument.

The altimeter tells me the hard altitude I want to be at, the vsi tells me how much to push/pull the yoke to get/ stay there .
 
Keep in mind that it's all fun and games until the controller asks "uh, N12345, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?". We heard that while flying this weekend.
 
I flew from Camarillo to Dagget last week. As soon as I hit Palmdale I was in and out of up and down drafts. FF did ask if I was planning to stay at 5500, I said I am doing what I can, being pushed all over. Their reply was "do what you can, we understand", never said another thing about my altitude.
 
I'm low-time as well, just over 100 hours. Like Jordan mentioned, the sight picture is what VFR flying is all about. I find that it's helpful to keep the seat height consistent as well. Line yourself up a reference point that is 20-30 miles away and track that. In addition, use your ears. You should be able to hear the engine spooling up or fading away from your cruise rpm, and that can also alert you to altitude deviation.
 
woodchucker said:
I'm low-time as well, just over 100 hours. Like Jordan mentioned, the sight picture is what VFR flying is all about. I find that it's helpful to keep the seat height consistent as well. Line yourself up a reference point that is 20-30 miles away and track that. In addition, use your ears. You should be able to hear the engine spooling up or fading away from your cruise rpm, and that can also alert you to altitude deviation.
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That won't work so well with rising or sinking air, but it's good advice for fixed pitch in general.

you can climb at high speed in rising air. And a CS prop will not change sound much with airspeed.

My advice would be to try an instrument scan. Not like in IMC, but once through the rectangle, then outside. You probably can skip the AI as you have a real horizon. But the other 5 instruments, CDI and tach/MP all have information.
 
Somewhere back in the thread someone said to minimize re-trimming... I think that's a strategy you should try.

If I'm moving along, fairly hands-off at 9500 and 165kts and I start getting some bump I'll hold the pressure manually for a while. Most times it's a minute or two and I can relax and she'll settle back in to the previous trim.

If you want to "try it" in calm air... when you're trimmed out and riding along, push or pull for a couple seconds to +/- 200ft and watch the plane find it's way back to where you started.

CFI's told me I over control and this exercise helped.
 
darthnomster said:
Tiffany and I took our longest cross country to date over the weekend. We flew from Butler County KHAO to Gatlinburg KGKT, had lunch then flew back. I flew down, she flew back. We're each approaching 100 hrs total time.

It was a safe/fun/successful flight, and we're both gaining confidence as we expand our envelopes. We continue to get more experience using flight following and getting our phraseology correct. We diverted to an airport enroute for a bathroom break, and were able to get all of the relevant info arrival info (runways, atis, ctaf) from the 430 without having to refer to the tablet or sectional. These kinds of small victories are fun.

One thing we continue to work on is holding altitude. In calm air, we're both pretty proficient at getting to cruise altitude, selecting the proper RPM power setting and leaning the airplane, and relieve the control pressures with elevator trim (she's better at this than I am) and it will stay there .

Where I feel like I'm constantly fiddling is when we hit thermals or fly over hills/mountains. I feel like I spend too much time looking at the altimeter, and not enough time with other parts of the scan. If I get my head out the window to look for traffic too long, I find myself glancing back to the altimeter to find I've climbed or descended 100 feet or more. I want to get better at this. We're on flight following, and as a courtesy to the controller, and in preparation for future IFR training, I want to be able to hold a damned altitude. Is this something where I need to talk to an instructor and get some tips/dual, or does this just get easier with experience?:dunno:
Click to expand...


You've gotten plenty of good answers, so I won't add to that. I WOULD, however, like to ask you a question about KGKT.

I have an Army buddy that lives in Sevierville. I am a Texas flatlander pilot. I've probably never flown over a peak that was more than six or eight hundred feet higher than the surrounding area.

In September I am flying to the middle of Tennessee and want to go on over to Sevierville and pick up my Army buddy. In studying the Gatlinburgh airport, (it drives my buddy wild they call it the Gatlinburgh airport because the airport is ACTUALLY in Sevierville) and I am trying to determine If I need to consider it mountain flying. With zero mountain flying experience and not much more than zero mountain flying knowledge, it concerns me.

Having been into that airport as a low time pilot, what say you?
 
First, thermals in the summer are a fact of life, especially at low altitudes.

I remember flying an underpowered, draggy biplane from AZ to TN. Much of the flight was seeing myself sinking and needing full power and Vy to claw my way back up the 100' or so to altitude. Immediately followed by an updraft where even throttled back I had to watch the airspeed to keep it out if the yellow as I screamed back down riding the thermal. Exhausting.

I like flying kinda low in my Sky Arrow - 1,000' to 1,500' or so, but in the summertime it's often too much of a battle with thermals to do so. Best bet then is to get on top of the line defined by the top of the haze layer - wind permitting that's often where things calm down.

As far as "mountain flying", I'm relatively new at it. I think the main skill one needs to develop is visualizing the wind and terrain's effect on it. IOW, being able to "see" the effect a ridge will have on the wind spilling over it. I'm back and forth to Knoxville a fair bit, and that higher terrain SE of it has to be considered, especially with an easterly or southerly wind.

17036581069_ca962a0b49.jpg
 
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MBDiagMan said:
You've gotten plenty of good answers, so I won't add to that. I WOULD, however, like to ask you a question about KGKT.

I have an Army buddy that lives in Sevierville. I am a Texas flatlander pilot. I've probably never flown over a peak that was more than six or eight hundred feet higher than the surrounding area.

In September I am flying to the middle of Tennessee and want to go on over to Sevierville and pick up my Army buddy. In studying the Gatlinburgh airport, (it drives my buddy wild they call it the Gatlinburgh airport because the airport is ACTUALLY in Sevierville) and I am trying to determine If I need to consider it mountain flying. With zero mountain flying experience and not much more than zero mountain flying knowledge, it concerns me.

Having been into that airport as a low time pilot, what say you?
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I've also flown in there quite a bit and its not bad. Unless you are flying from the south/eastern side of gkt you won't even get significantly near the mtns


Coming from the southwest/ west you can avoid the mtns by flying over ktys. GKT also has a helicopter school and theres usually a few out and about.

Unless you are flying an underpowered death trap hot and heavy I wouldn't be bothered flying over the smokey mtns.
 
rolivi said:
Somewhere back in the thread someone said to minimize re-trimming... I think that's a strategy you should try.



If I'm moving along, fairly hands-off at 9500 and 165kts and I start getting some bump I'll hold the pressure manually for a while. Most times it's a minute or two and I can relax and she'll settle back in to the previous trim.



If you want to "try it" in calm air... when you're trimmed out and riding along, push or pull for a couple seconds to +/- 200ft and watch the plane find it's way back to where you started.



CFI's told me I over control and this exercise helped.
Click to expand...


Exactly. He should also think "pitch for airspeed, power for altitude." Excessive pitching changes airspeed, which changes altitude, creating a vicious cycle. Adjust power very slightly, and the aircraft will find the right altitude for that power setting.

Finally, he should have his flying partner or CFI note whether he is accidentally making pitch movements just by having a couple of fingers on the yoke. I had to be broken of that habit.
 
MBDiagMan said:
You've gotten plenty of good answers, so I won't add to that. I WOULD, however, like to ask you a question about KGKT.

I have an Army buddy that lives in Sevierville. I am a Texas flatlander pilot. I've probably never flown over a peak that was more than six or eight hundred feet higher than the surrounding area.

In September I am flying to the middle of Tennessee and want to go on over to Sevierville and pick up my Army buddy. In studying the Gatlinburgh airport, (it drives my buddy wild they call it the Gatlinburgh airport because the airport is ACTUALLY in Sevierville) and I am trying to determine If I need to consider it mountain flying. With zero mountain flying experience and not much more than zero mountain flying knowledge, it concerns me.

Having been into that airport as a low time pilot, what say you?
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We flew down from the north, so we didn't cross any of the higher ridges (7000ft) that would be crossed if coming from the south or southeast. I think if you're coming in from the west, you'll be in the same situation we were. The highest Max Elevation Figure that you'll encounter coming from the west looks like 34 until you get to the quad directly west of KGKT. In THAT quad, all of the 6-7000ft elevation looks to be in the southern half. We cruised into the area at 7500 and were talking to Atlanta Center then Knoxville approach. Both were friendly to this bugsmasher. As mentioned by another commenter, there was a fair amount of sightseeing helicopter traffic in the area. The immediate area around the field is pretty flat. I never felt like I had to be any more cautious than normal about pattern entry or departure. We had no trouble climbing at a comfortable rate in our 160hp 172 to get above terrain on departure.

My only negative impression from the whole trip was that the ground guy at KGKT was kind of a curmudgeon. He was trying to marshal us to an unmarked parking place using non-standard hand signals, then acted offended when I couldn't figure out what the hell he was trying to get me to do. Other than that, it was a good experience. The full service gas was almost .90 cheaper than home, and they FBO had a crew car that they let us use for an hour to get lunch.
 
Thanks for the replies to this flatlander worried about the hills.

Do the helicopters stay low? When my Mom was sick, I was frequently going to Grand Prairie Municipal in the Dallas area. Most of the TV/Radio helicopters base there, but my CFI at the time, the founder of the Dallas PD Helicopter Division told me that the helicopters almost always stayed around 1,200 feet so if I stayed above that and obeyed the Grand Prairie tower there were no worries.

The helicopters around Sevierville OTOH have a different mission than monitoring traffic and there is no tower on the field. Is the area every man for himself, or do those helicopters stay on Flight Following.

The comments are making me feel a little more comfortable about going into Sevierville, but I will be doing lots of study between now and then.
 
I'm a flatlander pilot as well and I've flown into Gatlinburg, or whatever the hell airport it is. Total non event as I recall. The thing about the cumulogranite in that part of the world is it shouldn't give your aircraft any pause (unless you're flying a kite) but the rocks make lots of lots of weather, so you really need to be on your planning game. Lots of water, and the rocks bunch it up into oodles of interesting forms.
 
Don't know your aircraft type but if you're hanging from the wings ie; Skyhawk, use the wingtip vs horizon to manage your pitch... keep them parallel and you will maintain your altitude...
 
The key is trim speed. Trim speed is the indicated airspeed that the plane will return to, hands off, if disturbed from level flight. Once you have the airplane at the desired altitude and airspeed, trim the stick pressure off and then leave the trim alone. Get rid of the idea that you are somehow doing the controller a favor...if you even mention the word "altitude" when talking to a controller under VFR you will hear "altitude your discretion."

If you change anything from the trimmed state, like the power or flap setting, the trim speed you had set is not longer valid and you must establish a new trim speed for the new conditions.

The title of your post took me back to my first couple of east-to-west transcontinental flights when I was a relative newbie. I tried to maintain a constant altitude but the darned ground kept rising, and instead of being 6500 feet above the ground I was suddenly 3000 feet above the ground. Altimeter fixation is not a good thing for a VFR pilot.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Get rid of the idea that you are somehow doing the controller a favor...if you even mention the word "altitude" when talking to a controller under VFR you will hear "altitude your discretion."
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That may well be true under FF away from B or C airports but I often get VFR altitude restrictions out of the local class C. Just yesterday I was told "continue on course at or below 6500", while opposing VFR traffic was told "at or above 7000'".

They will also have be cross midfield at or above 6500 when coming from the west.
 
Someone to hold altitude? Thats called a co-pilot.
 
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