Hold in lieu of procedure turn

[steviedeviant]

POA,

I know this question has come up before and I am looking for direction to reference AIM or FAR.

I seem to get mixed answers to the questions "if a hold is on the approach plate, do I have to fly the complete circuit once or can I just do and entry and then get lined up?".

You all know the circumstances...let's say I am needing to turn and I use the tear drop entry to the hold in lieu of procedure turn, once I am lined back up, do I have to actually fly one lap around or can I then come straight in?

Some are telling me don't fly the circuit an others say do one lap. Can someone point me to the official answer and explain of I the only one confused or why this just such a confusing topic.

Thanks
SD

 

[MauleSkinner]

From the Instrument Procedures Handbook...”The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry.”

Cross the fix twice, not three times.

 

[midlifeflyer]

From the Instrument Procedures Handbook...”The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry.”

Cross the fix twice, not three times.

Of course. Same language in the AIM with the same result.

@steviedeviant, the confusion is mostly because folks try to parse language instead of taking a step back a moment and thinking about a procedure. It is a "hold in lieu of a procedure turn." A racetrack pattern instead of a barbed PT. The purpose is the same - a course reversal. Once you accomplish the course reversal, you are done.

 

[luvflyin]

From the Instrument Procedures Handbook...”The holding pattern maneuver is completed when the aircraft is established on the inbound course after executing the appropriate entry.”

Cross the fix twice, not three times.

@steviedeviant , this is also in AIM 5-4-9 a. 5. The quote, not the cross fix twice thing, which is a good description of it

 

[steviedeviant]

Thanks for the help. So, basically, if you are coming from the opposite direction and use a tear drop, or parallel approach to line up, no need to do the addition circuit. If you are coming direct, pretty good chance there is nopt anyway. So is the only time you would fly the hold is either atc asking or you need to lose altitude so you ask for one lap?

 

[bobmrg]

Yes. Ask permission before doing anything more than the minimum required.

Bob Gardner

 

[dtuuri]

Can someone point me to the official answer and explain ... why this just such a confusing topic.

This part of your question is probably answered by this part of Chap. 5 in the AIM:

"For a hold-in-lieu-of-PT, the holding pattern direction must be flown as depicted and the specified leg length/timing must not be exceeded."
​

In addition, a procedure turn gives the pilot plenty of time to become established on the inbound leg, meaning finding a stable wind correction angle, whereas a simple entry to a hold does not and in the case of a parallel entry not at all because you may head directly toward the fix on any random course but the one charted. Of course, a dogleg change in course at the fix sort of cancels any benefit from "becoming established". Whatever, ATC assumes you will cross the fix only twice, so whether or not that language is published anywhere is moot, tell them if you want to run the full pattern for any reason.

 

[benyflyguy]

I would strongly advise perusing http://www.avclicks.com/lessons.html brought to you by @dtuuri I spent quite some time reviewing these to really understand these more in depth. They helped me understand HiLPT as well as PT in general such as those finicky VOR-A PT’s that are barbed.

 

[John Collins]

Yes. Ask permission before doing anything more than the minimum required.

Bob Gardner

Bob,

I would reword your advice to be, if you have a question regarding the use of the HILPT, ask the controller for clarification. The rules are clear, if the HILPT is charted, it must be flown. There are 4 exception to this rule, you don't fly the hold if: 1) You are vectored to final; 2) the segment or leg specifies NoPT; 3) You are cleared "Straight In"; or 4) timed approaches from a holding fix are in use. If one of the exceptions apply or you wish to remain in holding beyond a single entry and inbound, permission from ATC is required.

 

[steviedeviant]

Bob,

I would reword your advice to be, if you have a question regarding the use of the HILPT, ask the controller for clarification. The rules are clear, if the HILPT is charted, it must be flown. There are 4 exception to this rule, you don't fly the hold if: 1) You are vectored to final; 2) the segment or leg specifies NoPT; 3) You are cleared "Straight In"; or 4) timed approaches from a holding fix are in use. If one of the exceptions apply or you wish to remain in holding beyond a single entry and inbound, permission from ATC is required.

So based on real world GA flying, I would think the feedback from most is that nearly every time you would have one of the four happen. This may be why when I ask someone about this that has been flying a long time they wonder why I am even asking because they have never had to fly the entire hold. I guess flying the entire hold is the exception and just doesn’t happen that often.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Bob,

I would reword your advice to be, if you have a question regarding the use of the HILPT, ask the controller for clarification. The rules are clear, if the HILPT is charted, it must be flown. There are 4 exception to this rule, you don't fly the hold if: 1) You are vectored to final; 2) the segment or leg specifies NoPT; 3) You are cleared "Straight In"; or 4) timed approaches from a holding fix are in use. If one of the exceptions apply or you wish to remain in holding beyond a single entry and inbound, permission from ATC is required.

I agree with Bob. Inform ATC you want/need the extra turn around the holding pattern.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So based on real world GA flying, I would think the feedback from most is that nearly every time you would have one of the four happen. This may be why when I ask someone about this that has been flying a long time they wonder why I am even asking because they have never had to fly the entire hold. I guess flying the entire hold is the exception and just doesn’t happen that often.

But it does happen.

I was doing the IFR cross country with a student. We were coming to our first airport and ATC cleared him to an IAF for the Approach. The controller laughed, "sorry, you are below radar identification."

Less and less with RNAV where they can just give you a fix at the end of the common T configuration, but it can still happen.

 

[John Collins]

So based on real world GA flying, I would think the feedback from most is that nearly every time you would have one of the four happen. This may be why when I ask someone about this that has been flying a long time they wonder why I am even asking because they have never had to fly the entire hold. I guess flying the entire hold is the exception and just doesn’t happen that often.

If you fly to the major radar locations where ILS is the norm, holds will be extremely rare. But if you fly to the airports with RNAV approaches as the norm, holds for a course reversal are encountered more often.

 

[John Collins]

I agree with Bob. Inform ATC you want/need the extra turn around the holding pattern.

I agree with Bob on that aspect. What I did not think was complete was the inference that you always have to ask, rather than understand the rule.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I agree with Bob on that aspect. What I did not think was complete was the inference that you always have to ask, rather than understand the rule.

I didn't get that inference from Bob's post, but if one does, I definitely agree.

 

[DoubleD]

Holding is part of the requirement for instrument currency. This is likely the most common reason for flying the HILPT. Almost every time I do it, I have to ask for it.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Based on my real world flying experience lately, if you're in radar coverage, you're getting vectors to final. You have to ask for the full approach if you want it.