Hold at PDZ?

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
Ok, so I was going into Chino today (great fuel prices) and there was a delay. I was flying the ILS 26R. The controller told me to "hold as published as Paradise VOR"

Looking at the low enroute and approach plate, I could not see where the hold was "published". I queried the controller who basically said "It's there, I will read it to you.... Hold east on 095 radial... Blah blah. "

So, what did I miss? Where is it published.

The controller was a bit "on edge" because preceding traffic was trying to fly the ILS, but he was giving so many "corrections", it sounded like a PAR.... :)

This was one of the very very few "actual" holds I've ever been assigned. By the time he read me the hold, I was about 0.5 miles from PDZ and did not have time to get it setup.

If it's really not published, maybe I should file an ASRS to get someone to look into it.
 
I agree with you and don't see any published hold on any of the other approach charts or STARs or Low altitude enroute chart. I would contact the TRACON quality person and discuss it with him or her. An ASRS is not a bad idea.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, so I was going into Chino today (great fuel prices) and there was a delay. I was flying the ILS 26R. The controller told me to "hold as published as Paradise VOR"

Looking at the low enroute and approach plate, I could not see where the hold was "published". I queried the controller who basically said "It's there, I will read it to you.... Hold east on 095 radial... Blah blah. "

So, what did I miss? Where is it published.

The controller was a bit "on edge" because preceding traffic was trying to fly the ILS, but he was giving so many "corrections", it sounded like a PAR.... :)

This was one of the very very few "actual" holds I've ever been assigned. By the time he read me the hold, I was about 0.5 miles from PDZ and did not have time to get it setup.

If it's really not published, maybe I should file an ASRS to get someone to look into it.
Click to expand...

Linked is the source document for all holding patterns at PDZ. Note that none of them are on the 095 radial. I would be giving their quality assurance staff in San Diego a phone call.

http://terps.com/pdz/pdz.pdf
 
Maybe the procedure changed lately and the controller missed the briefing. ASRS is probably a good idea. The controller probably looked at the approach plate when he wasn't so busy and realized he was incorrect.
 
Good idea to file the report,also not a bad idea to discuss it with the tracon.
 
OK Chino ILS 26R. Looking at the approach plate there is a procedure turn off the PDZ VOR 052 radial. Which also puts you at an IAF. Looks to me like a hold in lieu of a procedure turn instruction. Which would make sense so you could come in directly out of the hold.

Is that what was happening?

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/05599IL26R.PDF
 
Alexb2000 said:
OK Chino ILS 26R. Looking at the approach plate there is a procedure turn off the PDZ VOR 052 radial. Which also puts you at an IAF. Looks to me like a hold in lieu of a procedure turn instruction. Which would make sense so you could come in directly out of the hold.

Is that what was happening?

http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1407/05599IL26R.PDF
Click to expand...

No, it wasn't that. It was a hold directly over PDZ.
 
aterpster said:
Linked is the source document for all holding patterns at PDZ. Note that none of them are on the 095 radial. I would be giving their quality assurance staff in San Diego a phone call.

http://terps.com/pdz/pdz.pdf
Click to expand...

It may have been the 089 radial, not 095. That one is on your list, but where is it "published"?
 
dans2992 said:
It may have been the 089 radial, not 095. That one is on your list, but where is it "published"?
Click to expand...

It isn't for purposes of arriving at KCNO.

The only place I find it published (with a casual look-through) is for the KRAL VOR Rwy 9 and VOR-A missed approaches. That would not be "published" for purposes of your handling.

That is Pattern 4 on the form, which is certainly a pattern the controller could use, but only if he described it to you completely as part of his holding clearance. (AIM 4-4-3-e)
 
This happens from time to time -- there is a hold associated with some procedure at a fix, but it isn't on all procedures using that fix. If there is a published hold at that fix associated with any procedure, it will be depicted on the controller's scope at that fix, but it will not display which procedures it is/is not part of. Controllers often don't know (or at least, don't remember) which procedures it is part of and which it isn't, and sometimes they inadvertently assign "as published" a hold associated with one procedure to an aircraft flying another procedure which uses the same fix but which doesn't have the hold depicted. All the pilot can do then is inform the controller that the fix isn't depicted on the assigned procedure so a full holding clearance is required.

Controllers should respect the pilot enough to then issue the full holding clearance without arguing with the pilot about the issue, but sometimes they don't give pilots proper credit for knowing their job and their charts. All you can do if that happens is be persistent enough soon enough that the controller issues the full holding clearance in time for you to draw it and determine how to enter it before you reach the fix. If the controller isn't cooperative, then do as suggested above and phone the facility shift supervisor or QA shop when you land.
 
Ron Levy said:
This happens from time to time -- there is a hold associated with some procedure at a fix, but it isn't on all procedures using that fix. If there is a published hold at that fix associated with any procedure, it will be depicted on the controller's scope at that fix, but it will not display which procedures it is/is not part of. Controllers often don't know (or at least, don't remember) which procedures it is part of and which it isn't, and sometimes they inadvertently assign "as published" a hold associated with one procedure to an aircraft flying another procedure which uses the same fix but which doesn't have the hold depicted. All the pilot can do then is inform the controller that the fix isn't depicted on the assigned procedure so a full holding clearance is required.

Controllers should respect the pilot enough to then issue the full holding clearance without arguing with the pilot about the issue, but sometimes they don't give pilots proper credit for knowing their job and their charts. All you can do if that happens is be persistent enough soon enough that the controller issues the full holding clearance in time for you to draw it and determine how to enter it before you reach the fix. If the controller isn't cooperative, then do as suggested above and phone the facility shift supervisor or QA shop when you land.
Click to expand...

The QA folks need to hear about it because it sounds like the guy is just hanging on and with an attitude.

The only place that Pattern 4 appears to be used is for a missed approach at a different airport.
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, so I was going into Chino today (great fuel prices) and there was a delay. I was flying the ILS 26R. The controller told me to "hold as published as Paradise VOR"

Looking at the low enroute and approach plate, I could not see where the hold was "published". I queried the controller who basically said "It's there, I will read it to you.... Hold east on 095 radial... Blah blah. "

So, what did I miss? Where is it published.

The controller was a bit "on edge" because preceding traffic was trying to fly the ILS, but he was giving so many "corrections", it sounded like a PAR.... :)

This was one of the very very few "actual" holds I've ever been assigned. By the time he read me the hold, I was about 0.5 miles from PDZ and did not have time to get it setup.

If it's really not published, maybe I should file an ASRS to get someone to look into it.
Click to expand...

Were you in IMC? If not, just drop the IFR and fly in under VFR.
 
CTLSi said:
Were you in IMC? If not, just drop the IFR and fly in under VFR.
Click to expand...


I was on top. Needed the ILS to get in.

The controller was having a bad day. There were 2 other planes on the approach ahead of me. The first guy was a having problems intercepting the localizer. The controller kept asking him "where are you going.. Are you established?.... No, I cannot clear you for a visual if you're in IMC..." I was only hearing one side of the conversation. The pilot must have been a bit rusty (or something). Consequently the frequency was jammed.

He told me he wanted me at "slowest practical speed" and to "expect the hold at PDZ". (I remember it wasn't completely standard phraseology, perhaps "published" was muffled.) In any case, I went through the charts to find the details and could not see a hold published. There was a break in the frequency and I was about to key the mic and ask, but then about 1nm from PDZ he said "hold as published". Saying it was not published and getting the details took up the next 0.5nm, so by the time I have an understandable clearance I was 0.5nm out.


Now, when I did reach the hold, I ended up turning the wrong way, but it sort of slipped by because the controller started vectoring me right then anyway. So, really I think both of us screwed up.

I don't want to stir up a hornets nest (I screwed up too), so maybe I'll just file an ASRS and leave it at that.
 
One thing an instructor told me that I remember is "if you get to a hold and don't know which way to turn, turn to the cardinal direction that defines the hold" (so if it is hold east, turn to the east, duh). It works!

You know it's strange how that is actually hard to do up there, single pilot, in IMC. But remember the other half of your brain is flying the airplane.
 
coloradobluesky said:
One thing an instructor told me that I remember is "if you get to a hold and don't know which way to turn, turn to the cardinal direction that defines the hold" (so if it is hold east, turn to the east, duh). It works!

You know it's strange how that is actually hard to do up there, single pilot, in IMC. But remember the other half of your brain is flying the airplane.
Click to expand...


I know what you mean! I was hand flying at the time. Maybe in retrospect I should have clicked on the AP to free up some brainpower!

I did turn to the cardinal heading, I just made a left turn instead of a right turn.... Looking at it now, it all seems so simple, like "how could I screw that up!?"
 
What time of day was it? We might be able to get the recording and give it a listen.
 
Would have been around 9:45-10am on July 20th.
 
Nice intel -- this would've busted me. All of the holds I've gotten over PDZ have been hold E on the 078, and I'd have probably flown that one out of habit. There are a few approaches in the area with that hold (AJO and RAL come to mind. I think ONT has one too)

I thought they had a little hold oval depicted on the Area chart at one point, but I'm looking now on skyvector and nada... so I may have hallucinated that. :)

Thanks to this post I'll be asking for explicit holds next time I get the newb on 125.5. heh.

$0.02

- Mike
 
schmookeeg said:
Nice intel -- this would've busted me. All of the holds I've gotten over PDZ have been hold E on the 078, and I'd have probably flown that one out of habit. There are a few approaches in the area with that hold (AJO and RAL come to mind. I think ONT has one too)

I thought they had a little hold oval depicted on the Area chart at one point, but I'm looking now on skyvector and nada... so I may have hallucinated that. :)

Thanks to this post I'll be asking for explicit holds next time I get the newb on 125.5. heh.

$0.02

- Mike
Click to expand...

All seven patterns are in Post #3.
 
No, I was 80P. This is only capturing bits and pieces. You can hear me question the "published" hold at 16:17.
 
dans2992 said:
No, I was 80P. This is only capturing bits and pieces. You can hear me question the "published" hold at 16:17.
Click to expand...

Also, apparently he assigned me a 080 radial (which he said was the published hold. That one is not even on the list (but maybe he was just "rounding off" 078. :)
 
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