High Time Cessna 310, Good Buy?

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oldandstupid

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oldandstupid
Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to purchase a late 70's Cessna 310R with over 10,000 hours on the airframe, mid time engines, upgraded avionics (430W, 55X autopilot, etc.). No damage history.

My biggest concern is the high airframe time, mx costs, parts availability, I'm pretty unfamiliar with the 310's reputation but I'm in the market for a twin and this opportunity presented itself right in my budget.

Thoughts?
 
I have seen little difference between a 15,000hr and a 5,000hr 172 from a "what breaks?" Standpoint
 
You must hire a specialized twin-Cessna shop to conduct a pre-buy on such an airplane. Having watched this exact story play out numerous times over the past 10 years, the financial risks are simply too great to do otherwise.

If you're close to Wichita this weekend, stop by the twin Cessna convention. Some of the experts from the good shops are there and can provide you with all the details you need in order to conduct a pre-buy.

oldandstupid said:
Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to purchase a late 70's Cessna 310R with over 10,000 hours on the airframe, mid time engines, upgraded avionics (430W, 55X autopilot, etc.). No damage history.

My biggest concern is the high airframe time, mx costs, parts availability, I'm pretty unfamiliar with the 310's reputation but I'm in the market for a twin and this opportunity presented itself right in my budget.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
 
oldandstupid said:
Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to purchase a late 70's Cessna 310R with over 10,000 hours on the airframe, mid time engines, upgraded avionics (430W, 55X autopilot, etc.). No damage history.

My biggest concern is the high airframe time, mx costs, parts availability, I'm pretty unfamiliar with the 310's reputation but I'm in the market for a twin and this opportunity presented itself right in my budget.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Fast, roomy and of all the 310's… the sexiest

I had a 1978 C–340, which is very similar (with the added pressurization)

No problems with parts availability.

Maintenance was pretty expensive in the beginning to get it to my standards. My 1st annual was $15,000.

Aside from the airplane costs, insurance is another big factor to consider… depending on your time and ratings.
 
wabower said:
You must hire a specialized twin-Cessna shop to conduct a pre-buy on such an airplane. Having watched this exact story play out numerous times over the past 10 years, the financial risks are simply too great to do otherwise.

If you're close to Wichita this weekend, stop by the twin Cessna convention. Some of the experts from the good shops are there and can provide you with all the details you need in order to conduct a pre-buy.
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Just saw Wayne's post and agree 100%.

There are “little things” that can add up to big money in a hurry.

Torque tubes on the mains for instance, can run something like $6000, and there are a lot of twin Cessnas out there with torque tube issues.

Or at least there used to be
 
Sounds like a great way to spend a ton of cash.
If you have a hard on for a personal twin, how about a twin comanchie?
 
A guy two T hangars down from me has his 310R for sale... it is one NICE plane for sure.... N363RM....
 
oldandstupid said:
Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to purchase a late 70's Cessna 310R with over 10,000 hours on the airframe, mid time engines, upgraded avionics (430W, 55X autopilot, etc.). No damage history.

My biggest concern is the high airframe time, mx costs, parts availability, I'm pretty unfamiliar with the 310's reputation but I'm in the market for a twin and this opportunity presented itself right in my budget.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...


.. Oh yeah...First post...Welcome to POA...:cheers:
 
I was talking to Tony of TAS Aviation, Inc in Ohio (they specialize working on 300-400 series Cessna twins), tonight at the 310 Convention. He said he had a guy come in with a good deal purchase and was very angry when the discrepancies on the first annual totaled $50k.
 
Our 310 is a high time airframe. It's over 8,000 hours now, and still going strong.

As far as "what breaks," it's not much different different. We have had some age issues like smoking rivets that have needed to be fixed, but really nothing that was a big deal. There are some trim items that show the age, like there are more scratches on the throttle quadrant than I've seen on most other Twin Cessnas that have half the time on them. Easy fix, though - I'll pull it and repaint it one day. The door still seals tightly, everything is still strong on it. My wife flew an old 310Q with close to 20,000 hours on it. Parts availability and all of that are no problem. You should absolutely join The Twin Cessna Flyer (www.twincessna.org) if you buy one. It's a very valuable resource.

As with any plane of this sort, you are best off getting someone who knows these planes to look at it before you buy it. Given the age of these aircraft and the number of things that can be broken on them, not to mention corrosion issues and other things that can plague them, you're best off looking for them now.

That said, a lot of people will try to talk you out of it on the surface because "They're all bad." Well, the Aztec was a 10,000 hour twin and now the 310 is an 8,000+ hour twin, and they ain't all bad. Prebuy on both consisted of "She'll do, where do I sign?"
 
You don't give the asking price.310s burn a lot of gas and are maintainence intensive if they where not well cared for.a thorough per buy from a mechanic familiar with 310 is the minimum before purchase.
 
frfly172 said:
You don't give the asking price.310s burn a lot of gas and are maintainence intensive if they where not well cared for.a thorough per buy from a mechanic familiar with 310 is the minimum before purchase.
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Depends on how you run them. We get 177 KTAS on 23 GPH combined at 187 KTAS on 27 GPH combined. That's really not bad for a 6-seater twin with de-ice.

As far as maintenance costs, depends on the condition when you buy it and how you choose to maintain it. I've seen a lot of people who've chosen to spend a lot of money on maintenance. Their aircraft have no better dispatch reliability (often worse) than the 310 I fly and manage that has carefully chosen maintenance.
 
oldandstupid said:
Hi Everyone,

I have an opportunity to purchase a late 70's Cessna 310R with over 10,000 hours on the airframe, mid time engines, upgraded avionics (430W, 55X autopilot, etc.). No damage history.

My biggest concern is the high airframe time, mx costs, parts availability, I'm pretty unfamiliar with the 310's reputation but I'm in the market for a twin and this opportunity presented itself right in my budget.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

How would anyone know if its a good buy? You didn't even provide an asking price.
 
They will eat you alive for maintainence.

Start by inspecting the spar just over the exhaust slipjoints. abour 40% of the fleet has neglected slipjoints, meaning....well you get it.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

OTOH, there are only (?) 180 T310Rs in service and if yours is a Turbo, they really haul. They are just not for the bargain hunter.
 
bbchien said:
They will eat you alive for maintainence.

Start by inspecting the spar just over the exhaust slipjoints. abour 40% of the fleet has neglected slipjoints, meaning....well you get it.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

OTOH, there are only (?) 180 T310Rs in service and if yours is a Turbo, they really haul. They are just not for the bargain hunter.
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I've been sitting on the ground for too long…

I forgot about the spar and exhaust problems on the 310s
 
JimG. said:
I've been sitting on the ground for too long…

I forgot about the spar and exhaust problems on the 310s
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Thing is, it's either a problem or it isn't. So to say all planes have the issue and you should stay away is an inaccurate claim, but many make it anyway.

And we haven't found the "eat you alive" maintenance claims to be true, either. Sure, maintenance isn't free. It's a twin.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Thing is, it's either a problem or it isn't. So to say all planes have the issue and you should stay away is an inaccurate claim, but many make it anyway.

And we haven't found the "eat you alive" maintenance claims to be true, either. Sure, maintenance isn't free. It's a twin.
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I owned a 1972 310Q for ten years. No corrosion problems and no outrageous maintenance items either.
 
Cloud Nine's 310N was built in 1967, spent the past 25 years in central New Jersey (midwest before that). Was always hangared and received its regular anti-corrosion treatment.
 
flyingmoose said:
Just go for it....Its only money, and heck, money is replaceable. :)
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"And by the way, we accept cash, check, airplanes, and first born children as payment at Buckeye Aviation, LLC." :D
 
The Cessna twins of that vintage are showing significantly more corrosion problems than in the past. Nose tunnel, tail, nacelle tank compartment and engine mounts are among the most likely culprits.

At least four of the top mechanics are attending the Twin Cessna convention this week (and FWIW I will attend today's session) and all of them will happily explain (and show hundreds of pictures if desired) of the structural and corrosion problems that prospective owners should understand, in addition to the potential engine issues that can de-rail any potential acquisition. Lifter and cam spalling are high on the list of expensive engine problems.

RotorAndWing said:
Bought it 1998 and sold it 2008. Spent the majority of it's life in the midwest, was in Phoenix when I bought it. Had about 4,500 hours on the airframe.
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wabower said:
The Cessna twins of that vintage are showing significantly more corrosion problems than in the past. Nose tunnel, tail, nacelle tank compartment and engine mounts are among the most likely culprits.

At least four of the top mechanics are attending the Twin Cessna convention this week (and FWIW I will attend today's session) and all of them will happily explain (and show hundreds of pictures if desired) of the structural and corrosion problems that prospective owners should understand, in addition to the potential engine issues that can de-rail any potential acquisition. Lifter and cam spalling are high on the list of expensive engine problems.
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Mine was corrosion free and regularly treated for corrosion. There are some good airplanes out there, just takes some due diligence to find them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
"And by the way, we accept cash, check, airplanes, and first born children as payment at Buckeye Aviation, LLC." :D
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:D Yup! One of the old timers at the airport told me that last night. "I don't need all this money, Might as well spend it!" :rolleyes:

Sorry I didn't meet up with you yesterday, I didn't know where I was going and I had some appointments to catch up on. I still might need that Blacklight.
 
The problem is that prospective buyers typically don't know the difference in quality and are suckered in by the "good deal" on the price. Ka-ching.

RotorAndWing said:
Mine was corrosion free and regularly treated for corrosion. There are some good airplanes out there, just takes some due diligence to find them.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
The problem is that prospective buyers typically don't know the difference in quality and are suckered in by the "good deal" on the price. Ka-ching.
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Yep. Buyer beware. The smart buyer won't necessarily just walk away, but will take a closer look. I wouldn't recommend my "She'll do" prebuy method, but it made sense in my case.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Our 310 is a high time airframe. It's over 8,000 hours now, and still going strong.
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you're not even getting started. When i went to work for privett in 1990 his lowest time 310 or aztec had over 14K hours. The highest time was at least 22K. Some of those planes are still flying.
 
JHW said:
you're not even getting started. When i went to work for privett in 1990 his lowest time 310 or aztec had over 14K hours. The highest time was at least 22K. Some of those planes are still flying.
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And that fairly well wraps it up, when taken care of the TT is of much lesser concern than many others. The plane may or may not be a good deal regardless of the time on it.
 
Skylane81E said:
And that fairly well wraps it up, when taken care of the TT is of much lesser concern than many others. The plane may or may not be a good deal regardless of the time on it.
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generally agree but not universally so. For example, on a O-300 powered C-170/172 you're spot on. For a lycoming powered 172 I would put value on low hours. The cessna airframe seems to suffer disproportionately from the 4-banger vibration in terms of loose rivets, worn hinges, etc.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Thing is, it's either a problem or it isn't. So to say all planes have the issue and you should stay away is an inaccurate claim, but many make it anyway.

And we haven't found the "eat you alive" maintenance claims to be true, either. Sure, maintenance isn't free. It's a twin.
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I wasn't saying to stay away… just confirming what Dr. Bruce stated about potential problems, and confirming what Wayne said about pre-buys.

I loved my 340, and you see what everybody here says about them:goofy:

My 1st annual was $15,000.

My last annual was $10,000.

My 1st years insurance premium was $15,000… the last year was half that.

The joy I had flying it, and the memories I still have… priceless
 
JHW said:
you're not even getting started. When i went to work for privett in 1990 his lowest time 310 or aztec had over 14K hours. The highest time was at least 22K. Some of those planes are still flying.
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That's more or less our plan. These engines should take us past 10k. Hopefully by the we can put diesels on.
 
If you end up buy this plane, I have Bandix 810 autopilot im looking to sell, if your interested PM me
 
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