Henderson, NV Piper crash

Aircraft - PA28-181
4 adults on board - Weight??
Field Elev - 2492'
Temp - 90dF+
Density Altitude??
 
SkyDog58 said:
Aircraft - PA28-181
4 adults on board - Weight??
Field Elev - 2492'
Temp - 90dF+
Density Altitude??
Click to expand...

Assume 4 FAA people, full tanks, definitely over weight. DA estimate of 5000 ft. I've put 4 adults in the cherokee with fuel to tabs and in cold weather. Still a bit sluggish. Would never do it in the summer and/or full tanks
 
SkyDog58 said:
Aircraft - PA28-181
4 adults on board - Weight??
Field Elev - 2492'
Temp - 90dF+
Density Altitude??
Click to expand...

That's certainly the tail of a Piper. Could be density altitude thing. The news mentions fire, but the witness description fits more of a stall / crash (tail up in the air). I had one run-up with density altitude in West VA in my old Cherokee 140...awhile back, one of those experiences that led to better judgement ever since.

It's been a bad month for GA. At least no one was killed!
 
murphey said:
Assume 4 FAA people, full tanks, definitely over weight. DA estimate of 5000 ft. I've put 4 adults in the cherokee with fuel to tabs and in cold weather. Still a bit sluggish. Would never do it in the summer and/or full tanks
Click to expand...

I do wonder how much fuel they had onboard. If they were headed for San Diego and didn't plan to stop, they probably had quite a bit of fuel considering it is is about 220NM direct but with the terrain and the restricted Areas and MOAs, they probably planned on a longer route.

Too little info to be certain but plenty of reason to suspect a combo of weight and DA. Either way, it is sad.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Aircraft - PA28-181
4 adults on board - Weight??
Field Elev - 2492'
Temp - 90dF+
Density Altitude??
Click to expand...

Yep. My thoughts exactly. Looks like the temp was around 90F. I'm not familiar with Pipers, but I wouldn't load 4 adults into a 172, plus baggage, under any circumstances, let alone mid-afternoon in Vegas.
 
woodchucker said:
Yep. My thoughts exactly. Looks like the temp was around 90F. I'm not familiar with Pipers, but I wouldn't load 4 adults into a 172, plus baggage, under any circumstances, let alone mid-afternoon in Vegas.
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Speaking of a 172. Here is the NTSB report from another accident out of HND from a couple of years ago. It was in a 172 which happened to be the same 172 that I passed my PPL checkride in. Fortunately the results were much better as the airplane was the only casualty.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20130428X00603&ntsbno=WPR13LA209&akey=1
 
With high temp high density alt. e airplane with that much weight,is not going to be a fast climber.hope they all recover.
 
Sounds like DA. I have never flown a PA28-181 but I have flown a 180hp 172 and would never consider loading 4 people in the summer... four small people in the northern winter perhaps, but Vegas in July??
 
If I recall correctly PA-28-181 useful load is something like 980 lbs. Full tanks would be around 288 lbs so with 4 people that would be only 173 lbs per person with no room for any baggage or other equipment (eg cover) in the hold. Combined with the weather, altitude and witness descriptions sounds very much like the aircraft was either overweight or having serious density altitude issues.

Investigators will do their thing but in such a scenario pilot could have stalled the plane but pulling back too hard to gain altitude while not paying attention to airspeed.
 
Speedy recovery hoped for those injured.

That airport towards the south has rising terrain, witness said that it looked like the plane was really struggling to gain altitude. Little seems more conducive to a stall than... At or above Gross Weight, High DA, and rising terrain growing in your windshield, again, hoping for a speedy recovery.
 
gov98 said:
Speedy recovery hoped for those injured.

That airport towards the south has rising terrain, witness said that it looked like the plane was really struggling to gain altitude. Little seems more conducive to a stall than... At or above Gross Weight, High DA, and rising terrain growing in your windshield, again, hoping for a speedy recovery.
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Agreed. Thanks for the additional info.
 
gov98 said:
Speedy recovery hoped for those injured.

That airport towards the south has rising terrain, witness said that it looked like the plane was really struggling to gain altitude. Little seems more conducive to a stall than... At or above Gross Weight, High DA, and rising terrain growing in your windshield, again, hoping for a speedy recovery.
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I was just there a month ago in an Archer III, left at 6:00am to the south. Just me and full fuel, 30lbs of bags (which only left about 200lbs empty). Clearing the terrain to the south was not trivial and I had to alter course to remain clear of the peaks.

Hope they all recover quickly. The description of the victims skin sounds horrific. Is there such thing as semi-stylish comfortable Nomex?


ETA - just looked it up and it's about what I recall. You have about 4 miles to clear 1500ft rising terrain plus desired clearance of 500-1000ft min, say 2500ft. With a plane that makes book climb of 400-500fpm in those conditions that's about 600-800ft per mile x 4 is 2500-3000ft gain vs desired 2500ft. Not a lot of room for error.
 
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Blatham489 said:
Hope they all recover quickly. The description of the victims skin sounds horrific. Is there such thing as semi-stylish comfortable Nomex?
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Sort of...lots of work clothes choices fire rated (FR). Look up the specs to get the rating though, they aren't like a bunker suit. If you've got burning fuel splashed around, FR clothes aren't going to matter much.

Now what ya really don't want to do is wear any synthetic materials. They melt and leave horrible burns. Stick with cotton and wool. Also, avoid leather gloves. I've heard some horror stories on leather gloves but haven't seen it.
 
Clark1961 said:
Also, avoid leather gloves. I've heard some horror stories on leather gloves but haven't seen it.
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Out of curiosity, what horror stories/what was the issue with leather?

Every pair of firefighting gloves I've ever worn had leather suede exteriors. Plenty of leather firefighting helmets and boots in use as well.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Out of curiosity, what horror stories/what was the issue with leather?

Every pair of firefighting gloves I've ever worn had leather suede exteriors. Plenty of leather firefighting helmets and boots in use as well.
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I've heard that typical glove leather shrinks when exposed to fire.

Just guessing but maybe the suede exterior acts like the "fuzzy" FR where the fire is supposed to burn the fuzz and not reach the actual fabric for the duration of the fire test. Of course those burn tests are pretty short.

I've never worried about the leather workboots and fire. Of course that's a thick leather.
 
Clark1961 said:
I've heard that typical glove leather shrinks when exposed to fire.

Just guessing but maybe the suede exterior acts like the "fuzzy" FR where the fire is supposed to burn the fuzz and not reach the actual fabric for the duration of the fire test. Of course those burn tests are pretty short.

I've never worried about the leather workboots and fire. Of course that's a thick leather.
Click to expand...
I guess that is possible.

The gloves we use are a multi-layer system with a interior vapor barrier, similar to the rest of the turn-out gear. I've had them in actual structure fires back when I was a volunteer FF in college. I ask because I never saw any adverse effects to the leather exterior.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Probably not but that is just my assumption and might not be accurate or fair to the pilot.
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With 4 adult males and tanks full of fuel (for a trip to San Diego) was probably wayyy over gross anyways. Leaning or no leaning wouldn't have made much difference.
 
The article says that the plane went down after catching fire. Are we just ignoring that in pursuit of the DA discussion?
 
Given full tanks and 4 adults I don't see how that airplane wasn't overweight, but we'll see. DA may have been an additional factor but the initial description and states loading points towards an overweight airplane IMO.
 
ollopa said:
The article says that the plane went down after catching fire. Are we just ignoring that in pursuit of the DA discussion?
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Why would any facts get in the way of the post's of the experts around here.:rofl:
 
ollopa said:
The article says that the plane went down after catching fire. Are we just ignoring that in pursuit of the DA discussion?
Click to expand...
No, we just don't think you're correct. Or more correctly that the cited article is correct. Every other sources says the plane went down, then caught fire. And the article doesn't cite any witness who says anything about fire before the plane going down; in fact the witnesses are clear that the plane failed to gain altitude, not that it caught fire before crashing. This is just more of the typical "Cessna Piper"-type reporting.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/4-injured-in-nevada-plane-crash/

"A fire ignited after the crash, and the plane is a total loss, said Clark County Department of Aviation spokesman Paul Bobson."

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2015/07/accident-occurred-july-19-2015-in.html

"The plane, a single-engine Piper PA 28 crashed under unknown circumstances at about 1:20 p.m. after departing from Henderson Executive Airport, according to Public Affairs Manager Ian Gregor with the Federal Aviation Administration.

The plane caught fire after crashing with four people on board, Gregor wrote in a July 20 email."
 
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If the other 3 were even remotely of that size and build the aircraft would have been overweight even with empty fuel tanks.
 
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