Help with Cockpit Management for Lost and Diversion Procedures

eetrojan

eetrojan

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eetrojan
I'm working on cross-country flights, with lost procedures and diversion training, and I'm struggling a bit with cockpit management while circling, getting my VOR radials, drawing the intersection on my chart, and finding the true/magnetic course to the diversionary airport.

I know how to do it, but it’s still a bit tough because my little LSA training plane is pretty squirrelly and doesn’t stabilize so well while circling. I need to keep a hand on the control stick to stay over my reference point and, as such, really wish I had an extra hand.

The stuff in my lap (and hopefully not on the floor) includes my knee board (with my original NAV log clipped on top), a TAC, a plotter, an E-6B, and a pen.

Any tips for a student?

Thanks!
 
Stay organized. You know the steps for each task. Next you just need experience to prioritize which task to complete at the present moment. It'll come. Don't stress.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I'm working on cross-country flights, with lost procedures and diversion training, and I'm struggling a bit with cockpit management while circling, getting my VOR radials, drawing the intersection on my chart, and finding the true/magnetic course to the diversionary airport.

I know how to do it, but it’s still a bit tough because my little LSA training plane is pretty squirrelly and doesn’t stabilize so well while circling. I need to keep a hand on the control stick to stay over my reference point and, as such, really wish I had an extra hand.

The stuff in my lap (and hopefully not on the floor) includes my knee board (with my original NAV log clipped on top), a TAC, a plotter, an E-6B, and a pen.

Any tips for a student?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm struggling with this too. The best solution I've come up with is after you've identified the two VORs for triangulation, fold the sectional back on itself to the smallest area that allows you to still see the two VORs. This provides enough support for you to hold it up against the instrument panel and draw the intersecting lines if you use a felt tip pen or a soft tip pencil (not a ball point pen). The rest you need only one hand for...

Good luck and please let me know if you come up with a better solution!
 
One step at a time.

Just be methodical, and don't try and do too much at once.

Fly the plane.
Determine approx where you are and which direction you are heading.
Fly the plane.
Narrow down the area - are you N/E/S/W of a certain road/landmark/geographical feature/NAVaid.
Fly the plane.
Get more specific. are you N/W/S/W of a second road/landmark/NAVaid?
Fly the plane.
Pinpoint your location.
Fly the plane....
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
I'm working on cross-country flights, with lost procedures and diversion training, and I'm struggling a bit with cockpit management while circling, getting my VOR radials, drawing the intersection on my chart, and finding the true/magnetic course to the diversionary airport.

Any tips for a student?[/SIZE][/FONT]
Click to expand...

Ateaist said:
I'm struggling with this too. ... Good luck and please let me know if you come up with a better solution!
Click to expand...
If you're using VORs to triangulate, head for one of them instead of circling--at least you'll be getting closer to a known position and stronger signal. Then take your cross bearing off the other. Even if you only have a single VOR this will minimize the position error as long as you maintain a reasonably good heading while you tune the second one.

On your flight log, have a "diversion" section, so all you need to do is fill in the blanks called for by the PTS. Use rough estimates for ETA based on estimated ground speed while you positively identify landmarks (it takes two).

dtuuri
 
dtuuri said:
If you're using VORs to triangulate, head for one of them instead of circling--at least you'll be getting closer to a known position and stronger signal. Then take your cross bearing off the other.
Click to expand...
:yeahthat: Then once you get that down, then start doing it by circling, then do it without circling. Just takes a bit of time and practice.
 
1. slow down. There is no need to cover a lot of ground if you are unsure where you are.
2. if your plane will do it, put it in a configuration where you can fly with your feet and have both hands free.
3. think of the big picture first. Is there anything you need to avoid? mountains? open water? restricted airspace? what direction are you generally from the problem? turn away from it
4. Is there anything that represents a significant landmark that you know you are some direction from? large river, prominent railway line, etc ? turn in that direction to look for it. if you find something familiar in the meantime, great, but until then stay on a course to find something prominent.
5. altitude is your friend when you're looking at the big picture on the sectional. If the vis is good, consider climbing to get a better view. Conversely if it's hazy considering descending to pick out ground features easier.
6. Don't beat yourself up. Everyone has been lost at some point.
7. Don't be afraid to ask for help. It's a good idea during flight planning to jot down the center frequencies along your route. Try them one after another until someone answers. Don't be coy, just confess and ask for help. That's what your fuel taxes are paying for. If you don't have a center frequency, make a blind call on 122.8 and say "I'm a student pilot who is lost, someone please give me a center frequency for this area"
8. Worst case, if you get to a fuel critical situation, do not overfly a safe landing area if the terrain ahead is unforgiving. There is nothing wrong with making a precautionary off-airport landing.
 
dtuuri said:
If you're using VORs to triangulate, head for one of them instead of circling--at least you'll be getting closer to a known position and stronger signal. Then take your cross bearing off the other. Even if you only have a single VOR this will minimize the position error as long as you maintain a reasonably good heading while you tune the second one.
Click to expand...

I like this tip, but my instructor is pretty firm on the circling. I suspect that's probably because I will become "lost" pretty close to a couple of charlies (Ontario and March) and a few deltas to boot.
 
Thanks everybody. I've got a few days to chew on this, modify my Nav Log to include the lost-diversion info, and chair fly my process. I appreciate the thoughts!
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I like this tip, but my instructor is pretty firm on the circling. I suspect that's probably because I will become "lost" pretty close to a couple of charlies (Ontario and March) and a few deltas to boot.
Click to expand...

And a couple restricted areas, and a couple Bravos, and...
 
EdFred said:
My students aren't allowed to use GPS. If they need to use it, they "fail" that portion and we repeat whatever it is we need to do.
Click to expand...

Ok, I was talking "real world" not "PTS land" :)
 
dans2992 said:
Ok, I was talking "real world" not "PTS land" :)
Click to expand...

With my students that is real world. They can take their GPS, but I'm sealing the paper bag it goes in with packing tape. If they make it back without opening the bag - and it's easy to tell if they did or not - they go on to the next step. If not, we review and repeat.
 
EdFred said:
And a couple restricted areas, and a couple Bravos, and...
Click to expand...

Oops. Very true. But, but I think I'll be pretty far from LAX as we'll be flying flying back from Big Bear to Redlands (REI) so I'd bet he'll get me "lost" to the south-east of REI shortly after we clear the mountains.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Oops. Very true. But, but I think I'll be pretty far from LAX as we'll be flying flying back from Big Bear to Redlands (REI) so I'd bet he'll get me "lost" to the south-east of REI shortly after we clear the mountains.
Click to expand...

I-10 still runs through there right? Major roads are your friends.

If you know the route you are taking, then plan ahead and look on the charts to what there is to look for in certain areas, so your instructor can't get you lost.
 
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EdFred said:
I-10 still runs through there right? Major roads are your friends.

If you know the route you are taking, then plan ahead and look on the charts to what there is to look for in certain areas, so your instructor can't get you lost.
Click to expand...


Thanks! The 10 is a pretty solid reference. I should be able to coarsely orient myself by using Santiago Peak (about 6,000 ft. high), Lake Mathews, and/or Lake Elsinore, and then use the 10 to pinpoint my position.

I suspect that getting un-lost with pilotage is pretty easy in this part of the world. It's the drawing of VOR lines while not flying around like a drunk humming bird that has me a little concerned.
 
Always know where you are - since you are in basic training look out the window.

Then find where you are on the sectional.
Then find where you have to go.

Then when you need to divert you will know roughly which way you need to turn.

When it comes to finding a point in space where VOR radials intersect . . . its always much easier to get on one of them - then all you need to do is find the other one -
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Oops. Very true. But, but I think I'll be pretty far from LAX as we'll be flying flying back from Big Bear to Redlands (REI) so I'd bet he'll get me "lost" to the south-east of REI shortly after we clear the mountains.
Click to expand...

You got the pass - use that for the east reference.

Everything from there is easy. The big blue thing to the west of the ocean!
 
EdFred said:
With my students that is real world. They can take their GPS, but I'm sealing the paper bag it goes in with packing tape. If they make it back without opening the bag - and it's easy to tell if they did or not - they go on to the next step. If not, we review and repeat.
Click to expand...

By "real world" I meant after the checkride when flying normal XC missions without an examiner/instructor.
 
dans2992 said:
By "real world" I meant after the checkride when flying normal XC missions without an examiner/instructor.
Click to expand...

I don't have an iPad or ForeFlight. How am I supposed to get unlost?
 
comanchepilot said:
You got the pass - use that for the east reference.

Everything from there is easy. The big blue thing to the west of the ocean!
Click to expand...

The Banning Pass? It should look like this?

banningpass.jpg


I'm probably going to feel dumb, but what's the "big blue thing to the west of the ocean"?
 
Along the same subject as this thread:

I recently switched to a plane that has a single VOR. I'm a few flights from my checkride. What am I "supposed" to be doing to pinpoint my position? I previously learned VOR intersection but am unsure now that I only have a single VOR.

I have a flight next Wed. with my instructor but I figured I'd think ahead.
 
EdFred said:
I don't have an iPad or ForeFlight. How am I supposed to get unlost?
Click to expand...

Stop buying paper charts and buy an iPad/iPhone w/ Foreflight. It will pay for itself very quickly.

Alternatively, use a garmin portable, or panel- mount GPS.

I suppose one should still know how to use cross radials to find your position (and it ain't that hard), but soon that kind of thing will go the way of LORAN, the "radio range" and signal bonfires... Just a matter of time.

Whenever I fly, I have no less than 3 GPSes, two of which can receive GPS and GLONASS and are battery powered. Full outage is very unlikely. I still know how to use VORs, etc, but the need to do so is becoming less and less.

Learning that kind of thing is important for initial training, but the last time I did a flight plan and calculated things like "wind correction angles" and really tried to identify visual checkpoints, use a timer, etc. was about 15 years ago when I took the checkride.

Dan
 
asechrest said:
Along the same subject as this thread:

I recently switched to a plane that has a single VOR. I'm a few flights from my checkride. What am I "supposed" to be doing to pinpoint my position? I previously learned VOR intersection but am unsure now that I only have a single VOR.

I have a flight next Wed. with my instructor but I figured I'd think ahead.
Click to expand...

Hi asechrest, I'm also flying in a plane that only has one VOR. I'm curious about different answers to your question, but I'm being taught to simply tune in the first VOR to get a first radial, and then tune in the second VOR to get the cross-radial, while circling over a ground reference so that I'm staying roughly in place.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Hi asechrest, I'm also flying in a plane that only has one VOR. I'm curious about different answers to your question, but I'm being taught to simply tune in the first VOR to get a first radial, and then tune in the second VOR to get the cross-radial, while circling over a ground reference so that I'm staying roughly in place.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I'll find out on Wednesday if that's my instructor's direction as well.
 
Why circle? In the time it takes to complete the first 180 you can have the second VOR tuned and the radial figured out. If you're tight for time hold off identifying until later when you're on your way. In fact, I seldom identify a VOR for enroute navigation.

Alternatively I'd suggest a single VOR and DME if your equipped. Also, a single VOR and an NDB can make a fix too.
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
So far, all of my training flights have combined diversion procedures with first being lost (hood work). Would that explain the circling mandate?
Click to expand...
Not really. Circling a prominent landmark until you can positively identify it makes sense, but if you can navigate toward a known VOR there's no need--you know your direction from it and just need to nail down how far from it you are.

dtuuri
 
dans2992 said:
Learning that kind of thing is important for initial training, but the last time I did a flight plan and calculated things like "wind correction angles" and really tried to identify visual checkpoints, use a timer, etc. was about 15 years ago when I took the checkride.
Click to expand...

I am extremely happy to hear that! Does anyone but CFIs and students use paper sectionals anymore?

*Briefly looking up from wind correction calculations for today's XC exercise to LA*
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I'm working on cross-country flights, with lost procedures and diversion training, and I'm struggling a bit with cockpit management while circling, getting my VOR radials, drawing the intersection on my chart, and finding the true/magnetic course to the diversionary airport.

I know how to do it, but it’s still a bit tough because my little LSA training plane is pretty squirrelly and doesn’t stabilize so well while circling. I need to keep a hand on the control stick to stay over my reference point and, as such, really wish I had an extra hand.

The stuff in my lap (and hopefully not on the floor) includes my knee board (with my original NAV log clipped on top), a TAC, a plotter, an E-6B, and a pen.

Any tips for a student?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Take extra pens, accessible, in case you drop one and it ends up unreachable.
 
EdFred said:
With my students that is real world. They can take their GPS, but I'm sealing the paper bag it goes in with packing tape. If they make it back without opening the bag - and it's easy to tell if they did or not - they go on to the next step. If not, we review and repeat.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
Learn to fly without your GPS and electronic charts BEFORE the unit goes Tango Uniform on you when you really need it in flight.
 
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Ateaist said:
I am extremely happy to hear that! Does anyone but CFIs and students use paper sectionals anymore?

*Briefly looking up from wind correction calculations for today's XC exercise to LA*
Click to expand...

Even when not instructing, I fly with hard copy sectionals.
 
JHW said:
1. slow down. There is no need to cover a lot of ground if you are unsure where you are.
2. if your plane will do it, put it in a configuration where you can fly with your feet and have both hands free.
3. think of the big picture first. Is there anything you need to avoid? mountains? open water? restricted airspace? what direction are you generally from the problem? turn away from it
4. Is there anything that represents a significant landmark that you know you are some direction from? large river, prominent railway line, etc ? turn in that direction to look for it. if you find something familiar in the meantime, great, but until then stay on a course to find something prominent.
5. altitude is your friend when you're looking at the big picture on the sectional. If the vis is good, consider climbing to get a better view. Conversely if it's hazy considering descending to pick out ground features easier.
6. Don't beat yourself up. Everyone has been lost at some point.
7. Don't be afraid to ask for help. It's a good idea during flight planning to jot down the center frequencies along your route. Try them one after another until someone answers. Don't be coy, just confess and ask for help. That's what your fuel taxes are paying for. If you don't have a center frequency, make a blind call on 122.8 and say "I'm a student pilot who is lost, someone please give me a center frequency for this area"
8. Worst case, if you get to a fuel critical situation, do not overfly a safe landing area if the terrain ahead is unforgiving. There is nothing wrong with making a precautionary off-airport landing.
Click to expand...

How about 122.2, the common FSS frequency? How many pilots do you know who monitor Unicom while enroute?

Bob Gardner
 
register@teamandras.com said:
Thanks! The 10 is a pretty solid reference. I should be able to coarsely orient myself by using Santiago Peak (about 6,000 ft. high), Lake Mathews, and/or Lake Elsinore, and then use the 10 to pinpoint my position.

I suspect that getting un-lost with pilotage is pretty easy in this part of the world. It's the drawing of VOR lines while not flying around like a drunk humming bird that has me a little concerned.
Click to expand...

Then don't draw them. With one VOR needle centered, drag your finger along the radial until you get fairly close to where you think you are...then circle while centering the needle on the second VOR. Drag your finger down that radial until you reach the area you identified in step one. Don't let your instructor lock you into something to the exclusion of other methods. Except for the question of fuel, being lost is not time-based, so take your time.

Diversion is something else again. The PTS wants you to turn in the general direction of the diversion airport. Diversion is time-based, because you have a sick passenger, oil on the windshield, whatever. The examiner will expect you to be fairly close to a direct line between your position at the time of the emergency and the diversion airport and will want an ETA that is accurate within five minutes or so. S/he will not expect you to draw a line on the chart and then follow that line (unless you have time to do so, which is unlikely in a real diversion).

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
How about 122.2, the common FSS frequency? How many pilots do you know who monitor Unicom while enroute?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

The farther from civilization, the more likely I'm to monitor them, if they come in at all.
 
bobmrg said:
How about 122.2, the common FSS frequency? How many pilots do you know who monitor Unicom while enroute?

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
none, but someone in a pattern at a nearby airport will pipe up. If you're truly lost I wouldn't have a lot of confidence in tuning a vor to listen to fss, and 122.2 is pretty hit or miss these days. Besides it's center who will be of immediate aid, not fss.
 
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