Help---unable to get ADS-B rebate due to error Garmin says in no big deal

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Walboy

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Reeks of being misconfigured how it determines air/ground mode switching or improper software versions.
 
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Well, if the FAA rejects the installation, make your shop repair, reconfigure or replace. If they don't, contact your local AG and ask for help. You are dealing with a government run program. You have rights.
 
bnt83 said:
Reeks of being misconfigured how it determines air/ground mode switching or improper software versions.
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That, or perhaps the transponder was put into ALT mode on the ground, rather than letting it switch from ground to air on its own.
 
Walboy said:
Is this speculation or something you know causes this failure? With FAA's guidance that transponder should be set to ALT even when on the ground and Garmin's automatic mode switching based on ground speed, maybe this is something to look into.
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It was based on my experience.
 
It's Garmin that is giving your friend grief?

Well, what I take from this is that maybe the GTX345 cannot meet the FAA standard for ADSB and I should not buy one. Furthermore, Garmin isn't standing behind their product or supporting their customer well.

Or, can you do the test in another location?
 
You pay for the install and equipment, which you are told qualifies you for the rebate, this is between the avionics shop (who you bought the box from and installed it) and the Feds, one way or another I would not be paying another dime, in fact I'd likley try to withhold payment until the unit was installed to spec and my rebate was approved.

Your money was to spec, their work wasn't, not your problem.

Make it right, or put the plane back to the way it was before and give me all my money back.
 
I have no idea what that failure mode is....but it sounds like either a squat switch or an airspeed switch isn't set properly to indicate airborne or flight phase.

Are you able to get any feed back from another ADS-B "in" unit?....and see your target and it's status?
 
My 345/210 install gave my shop fits. After the third attempt, it's working just peachy.
 
Walboy said:
I can't answer that question for sure. I can say that the GTX345 passed all the other tests in the FAA's Airborne 1090 analysis.

Given that everything seems to be working fine, let's say the answer to your question is no. What would that mean?
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I'd check to make sure it's sensing the phase of flight (taxi vs. flight) correctly. It either has to use a GPS speed signal or a switch of some kind (squat or airspeed). That data feed isn't happening IMHO.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I'd check to make sure it's sensing the phase of flight (taxi vs. flight) correctly. It either has to use a GPS speed signal or a switch of some kind (squat or airspeed). That data feed isn't happening IMHO.
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In my case, it would have sensed the phase of flight just fine, had I allowed it to (my first clue was an "are you sure?" prompt when I switched to ALT); I'd eliminate pilot error before roping the avionics shop in.
 
This is an indication that the transponder is reporting in the air when in fact it is on the ground. Since different ADS- B data is broadcast when on the ground than when airborne, this is important, particularly at major airports which use surface ADS-B.
 
Walboy said:
Everyone is cooperating trying to solve a problem that has everyone stumped. There's no need for confrontational posturing. I just thought that maybe someone had seen this issue before like GeorgeC has. Comments about contacting the attorney general or withholding payment aren't helpful or what I'm looking for. But thanks anyway.

It's not my transponder either. I have a GTX327 and a GDL88.
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I gotcha, my only though is if a customer using/paying a avionics shop is having to ask questions on how to fix his new avionics on a forum, might be time to shop a different shop.
 
So hes already accepted delivery, ahh, well disregard what I said.
 
Try taxing less than 15kt. I was told to do that to pass with a Stratus ESG. There is a problem with identifying if you are on the ground or in the air if you don't have a squat switch interfaced with the transponder. Fixed gear won't have that so for now try a slow taxi after your next performance monitor flight
 
The 15kt rule seems to be moving from myth to reality. Flying above or outside the required airspace is not looking like an option either. What we really need from the FAA is for them to publish the specifications given to the programmer who wrote the algorithm that issues these PASS / FAIL notices. Given I got my results in 15 minuses on a Saturday afternoon there is no way they are being issued by a carbon based life form. I am going to bet the specs don't follow the rules, or the program doesn't follow the specs.
 
Single Engine Land said:
The 15kt rule seems to be moving from myth to reality. Flying above or outside the required airspace is not looking like an option either. What we really need from the FAA is for them to publish the specifications given to the programmer who wrote the algorithm that issues these PASS / FAIL notices. Given I got my results in 15 minuses on a Saturday afternoon there is no way they are being issued by a carbon based life form. I am going to bet the specs don't follow the rules, or the program doesn't follow the specs.
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Saves them money if they screw it up. Unintended consequences.
 
Just got a friendly email from the FAA confirming the $500 rebate was approved and the check is in the mail (4-6 week delivery).
 
I am guessing it sees him on the ground at faster speeds.. mine doesn't show me on the ground unless I am under 30kts.. It's easily configured.
 
From the 345 manual:

The transponder system no longer supports a pilot selectable GND mode. The transponder should always be in ALT mode prior to moving on the airport surface. It must be in ALT mode when operating in certain controlled airspace, in accordance with 14 CFR 91.215. For guidance on transponder operation, refer to the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM), 4-1-20(a)(3). When on the ground or in the air always operate the transponder in ALT mode, unless otherwise requested by ATC. It is acceptable to go directly from OFF to ALT mode. It is not necessary to place in SBY mode for a “warm up” period. The transponder automatically determines whether the aircraft is in the air or on the ground
 
BTW, the total cost to install the 345 and hook it up to our Warrior's GTN 650 was $5,785.45. If only we could pass the test for the rebate. :(

Upside: The 650/345 combination is awesome!
 
I have a 530w/330ES combo now and cannot get a GAIRS report - I get the PAPR report - and it has no errors in red- so I'm good - the interesting thing here is it shows the flight - the flight was in various airspaces - and near and above and below airspaces -

If I was not detected in the requisite airspace for the required time - I should have received a FAIL GAIRS if nothing else - instead I got nothing - thats not right either
 
Jim,
Can you be a bit more specific on when you went from standby to alt both on takeoff and landing?
Thanks
Don
 
Don Siegel said:
Jim,
Can you be a bit more specific on when you went from standby to alt both on takeoff and landing?
Thanks
Don
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I didn't fly the test flight,a friend did. He told me he turned the 345 on at the start of the takeoff roll. I don't know if he turned it off after landing.

At Bergstrom we have very long taxi runs, up to almost 10,000 feet if the wind is from the south, as it usually is.
 
JimNtexas said:
I didn't fly the test flight,a friend did. He told me he turned the 345 on at the start of the takeoff roll. I don't know if he turned it off after landing.

At Bergstrom we have very long taxi runs, up to almost 10,000 feet if the wind is from the south, as it usually is.
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JimNtexas said:
I didn't fly the test flight,a friend did. He told me he turned the 345 on at the start of the takeoff roll. I don't know if he turned it off after landing.

At Bergstrom we have very long taxi runs, up to almost 10,000 feet if the wind is from the south, as it usually is.
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JimNtexas said:
I didn't fly the test flight,a friend did. He told me he turned the 345 on at the start of the takeoff roll. I don't know if he turned it off after landing.

At Bergstrom we have very long taxi runs, up to almost 10,000 feet if the wind is from the south, as it usually is.
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Putting the GTX 345 in standby on startup, and then altitude after liftoff, then standby prior to landing and taxiing worked to pass the test required for the rebate.
 
Don Siegel said:
Putting the GTX 345 in standby on startup, and then altitude after liftoff, then standby prior to landing and taxiing worked to pass the test required for the rebate.
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How fast are you normally taxiing? Wondering if it going in/out of air mode from fast taxi while "on" not in "standby", causing to fail the test flight.

Seems to me that was mentioned before in a different thread.

(assuming a fixed gear airplane where software is determining air/ground and not a switch)
 
I tried following the protocol suggested by Garmin which states taxiing at no faster than a brisk walk. This did not work for me on multiple tests. Garmin told me that there would be a fix for this problem in a subsequent update.
 
Don Siegel said:
I tried following the protocol suggested by Garmin which states taxiing at no faster than a brisk walk. This did not work for me on multiple tests. Garmin told me that there would be a fix for this problem in a subsequent update.
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Curious how mine goes. It hasn't flown yet. IDK what the software level is. Mod level on the data tag says "0". I bought it DEC 2016.
 
We got our check in under 2 weeks including Christmas and New Years it's surprisingly efficient for the Gov't.

Installed was a GTX345 (non-GPS) and GTN650
 
I recently installed a Garmin GTX-345 in an experimental light sport aircraft and after completing the required flight test, I received the exact error and everything else passed. My percent failure was only .52% for a total time of 00:01:31. I'm in a fixed gear aircraft and the transponder suppose to figure out whether it's in the air or ground on its own. I wondering if my ground speed dropped off to low while flying in a headwind? If you find a solution to this issue, please do share as I can't get my rebate until this passes.
Thanks everyone for your responses.
 
Copied from another forum:

here are some steps to take on your next flight which will make sure the system is not transitioning this data incorrectly.

1. Position the aircraft outside of any hangars with a clear view of the sky.
2. Conduct a normal aircraft power on sequence by starting the engine(s) and avionics.
3. Remain stationary until GPS position has been obtained and your ADS-B equipment indicates no faults or failures.
4. Taxi at a normal taxi speed (no faster than a brisk walk).
5. Depart the runway using a normal climb profile for your aircraft.
6. Fly either a normal traffic pattern or straight-in approach to land. Fly a normal 3 degree glide path, or as close as possible given any obstacles on the approach path.
7. Upon touchdown, decelerate in a straight line on the center of the runway, only turning off the runway after a normal taxi speed (no faster than a brisk walk) has been achieved.
8. After exiting the runway, stop the aircraft for a period of at least 5 seconds before taxiing.
9. Taxi to parking at a normal taxi speed (no faster than a brisk walk).
10. Allow the aircraft to come to a complete stop for a period of at least 5 seconds before turning off avionics.
 
I passed the test on the second flight. What I did was to keep the transponder in standby until shortly after takeoff, then put the transponder in Mode "C" as I gained about 50 feet. Upon completion of the required 30 minutes in listed airspace, I switched the transponder back to standby just prior to landing. My report showed zero errors in everything and all green passes for the rebate. Thanks for the great ideas received here. Hope Garmin comes out with an update for the GTX-345 to stop it from showing in-flight while sitting on the ground and not moving.
 
Low Flyer said:
I passed the test on the second flight. What I did was to keep the transponder in standby until shortly after takeoff, then put the transponder in Mode "C" as I gained about 50 feet. Upon completion of the required 30 minutes in listed airspace, I switched the transponder back to standby just prior to landing. My report showed zero errors in everything and all green passes for the rebate. Thanks for the great ideas received here. Hope Garmin comes out with an update for the GTX-345 to stop it from showing in-flight while sitting on the ground and not moving.
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I'm not flying till probably March but I'm gonna try leaving the transponder off till the GTN is showing 3D with WAAS then put the transponder in standby and verify its got pressure altitude, wait for any fail or advisory messages then taxi out for departure, then hit mode C at the hold short line and takeoff.

If that doesn't work I'll try it like you mentioned.
 
From the March/April 2017 FAA Safety Briefing:

ADS-B Air/Ground Assessment

Did you get an Air/Ground failure on your ADS-B Performance Report? You’re not alone. The FAA has detected numerous ADS-B equipped aircraft reporting airborne mode while stationary or taxiing. The installer can correct some issues, but other issues stem from decisions made by the avionics manufacturer. The FAA is working with avionics manufacturers to better understand the symptoms and next steps.

To clarify, the ADS-B avionics makes the Air/ Ground decision. The ADS-B Performance Report includes an assessment of the ADS-B avionics’ ability to determine airborne vs. ground mode. If you receive an Air/Ground failure, please work with your installer for guidance on appropriate corrective action. If the issue remains, reach out to your avionics manufacturer. If you’re still experiencing issues, email 9-AWA-AFS-300-ADSB-AvionicsCheck@faa. gov and request a review. Please attach the ADS-B Performance Report with Subject: “PAPR Review Request: Air/Ground Failure” in your email to help expedite a response.
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Walboy said:
True. But this could be a case of fixing something that's not broken. Someone else here has already shown this to be the case. It could be purely procedural or not flying in the correct airspace.

The avionics shop is also several states away. My friend opted to leave before he had a satisfactory test result. I'm simply asking if anyone else has run into this. I know at the AOPA Prescott Fly-In, there were numerous folks stymied by the FAA's report trying to collect the $500 rebate.
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There's a lengthy discussion about this over on MooneySpace. I just came back from my verification flight - passed everything EXCEPT the "Air on Ground" flag. With this many people having the exact same problem with different aircraft and different shops in different states, the shop is not the problem, Garmin is the problem.
 
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