Help me upgrade my panel

[Chrisgoesflying]

I think my plane is due for some avionics upgrades. I have a 1966 Piper Cherokee 140 with the 160 HP conversion. During my last annual I stripped the interior and installed a new interior. Next, I want to upgrade the panel.

My mission: I am currently a VFR pilot who does longer x-country flights for the most part. I would like to use my plane for IFR training and once I have my IFR rating, I would like to be able to use the plane to stay IFR current and proficient but 95% of my flying would still be VFR. The only time I would be IFR is when there are patches of IFR en route or if I decide to go VFR on top but have to pop through a layer to descent back down. I wouldn't need hard IFR, precision approach type equipment. I fly for fun only. If I arrive a day late or have to leave a day early in order to avoid bad weather, I'm perfectly fine with it. My job allows me to be VERY flexible with my time fortunately.

I hope that paints enough of a picture for my mission. If not, happy to answer any questions.

What I currently have on the plane:

- KMA 20 Audio Panel (fully functional)
- Bendix/King KLN89B GPS (not working)
- MX 170C NavCom (fully functional)
- Garmin Aera 500 GPS (fully functional)
- KX 175B NavCom (fully functional)
- Bendix/King 76A Transponder (fully functional)
- Two VOR indicators (one working, the other one not working)

In addition to the mounted stuff, I usually carry an iPad with Fltplan Go on it - I might upgrade this to Foreflight or Garmin Pilot soon. I also have two iPhones on my flights, both with moving map apps on them. I don't have ADS-B out yet. Not sure if I will install it or not. I'm in Canada and it's not mandatory here yet and won't be for personal GA aircraft for a good 5 years. When I fly south to the U.S. I usually get by without ADS-B as I don't have the need to fly into class C or higher airspace.

Budget: That's a difficult one. I always say as much as needed, as little as possible. I don't want to spend crazy and have the latest and best in it. I'm VFR for the most part as mentioned - just need IFR capabilities in the occasional situation where I need to get through a layer and most of all to train for the IFR rating without having to rent the school's plane.

Current thoughts:

- Kick out the KLN89B (don't think it's worth it trying to repair)
- Kick out the Garmin Aera 500 (it doesn't really add anything that the iPad and iPhone doesn't do)
- Kick out the KX 175B
- Kick out the inop VOR
- Add a non WAAS IFR certified GPS unit (not sure which one - any suggestions from you guys?)
- Install some sort of backup attitude indicator in the hole of the inop VOR
- What else, if anything???

 

[Jim K]

Absolute cheapest option would be to replace the kln89 with a kln94; you'd then have the same level of equipment I did my ifr with. That said, I wouldn't recommend it. The 94 is obsolete and updates are a pain in the ass.

There's a good chance you'll find that ifr makes xc so much easier that you'll file for every trip. It didn't take me long to get to that point. Flying above the clouds in smooth, cool air, going on my schedule, and not having to worry about airspace.... it's the only way to go in my book.

If it was my plane I'd do a gtn650 and replace the heading indicator with a gi275. That'll give you an hsi and your backup attitude. Replaces the antique radio, gives you lpv approach capability, easy to update. It's a big expense, but worth it in my opinion if you're keeping this plane a while.

My next dollars would go towards adsb in/out so you don't have to worry about avoiding rule airspace and can get traffic and more importantly, weather. I don't know enough about what Canada is planning though, or if it might change before they implement it.

There's cheaper ways to go of course. Lots of people like the avidyne navigators and they cost less. Rc Allen makes standby attitude indicators that work great. I think you're on the right track with everything except the "non-waas" gps. Don't install obsolete equipment.

 

[asicer]

My advice: see if anything gets announced at Airventure and ask again afterwards.

 

[murphey]

First question….what is your budget?

 

[WDD]

Agree a lot with Jim K. -

Here are more thoughts:
- KMA 20 Audio Panel (fully functional) - keep for now
- Bendix/King KLN89B GPS (not working) - throw away, get GTN 650
- MX 170C NavCom (fully functional) -keep for now
- Garmin Aera 500 GPS (fully functional) - throw away
- KX 175B NavCom (fully functional) - donate to museum
- Bendix/King 76A Transponder (fully functional) - replace with GTX 345 or Stratus ES with a connected Stratus 3 (you'll really want ADSB out and in)
- Two VOR indicators (one working, the other one not working) - remove the broken one, and replace your DG with G275 HSI

 

[Rgbeard]

In lieu of the Garmin 650, I'm a fan of the Garmin 355/375 equipment (I went 375). You get a REAL WAAS GPS, and either a Comm radio or a transponder all in one box. And, if 375, the transponder has ADS-B in/out covered, so you can ditch that old transponder, streamline the panel, and free yourself from your next piece of dead equipment.

Beats buying an old non-WAAS GPS that's possibly soon-to-be-deceased.

 

[asicer]

- Bendix/King 76A Transponder (fully functional) - replace with GTX 345 or Stratus ES with a connected Stratus 3 (you'll really want ADSB out and in)

OP is in Canada, which will be requiring diversity, if they don't change their mind in the near future. Might want to hold off on a permanent ADSB solution until that gets sorted out or in case a better diversity solution comes out.

 

[asicer]

And, if 375, the transponder has ADS-B in/out covered, so you can ditch that old transponder, streamline the panel, and free yourself from your next piece of dead equipment.

Does the 375 meet Canada's diversity requirements?

 

[Bob Noel]

Consider impact on CG. The 140 (well, at least my 140 did) can have the CG pretty far forward with lots of stuff in the panel.

 

[WDD]

Eh - getting rid of vacuum tube avionics should take weight away LOL

 

[Bob Noel]

don’t forget to make sure the avionics have cooling air

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

It's a big expense, but worth it in my opinion if you're keeping this plane a while.

You see, that I don't know. Right now the plane is perfect for our needs. Two adults, a dog, sometimes the cat and a few bags. But, we're one human or fur baby away from having to upgrade to something like your plane or at the very least a true 4 place with real baggage compartment. It's not happening tomorrow but it could in 2, 3, 4 years... Or not, I just don't know.

First question….what is your budget?

As much as necessary, as little as possible ;-) I really don't have a defined budget. I don't want to spend crazy for a plane that most likely will be a 3-5 year plane for me and mostly used for VFR flying, plus getting my IFR rating over the next few years, plus having a little more confidence in it if I have to pop through a layer because weather ended up not as forecast. Also, other than budget, I think another big (or even bigger) concern is downtime. Ideally I would want to keep that to a minimum. I've been grounded for several months due to mechanical issues in the past so I know this is always something that could happen. I would bite myself if I voluntarily ground the plane for too long and have to watch planes flying over the house for months while having a fully functional plane sitting in a hangar for avionics upgrades.

KX 175B NavCom (fully functional) - donate to museum

LOL. I'd probably have to pay them for taking it. That thing does look ancient. Taking it out without replacing it would make the panel look more modern already.

OP is in Canada, which will be requiring diversity, if they don't change their mind in the near future.

Correct, the plane is C-registered. Most likely we will need diversity ADS-B but it's not going to happen until 2027 I believe (don't quote me on that). If I were to go with a permanent ADS-B solution today, I'd go with the Tailbeacon X and AV30C bundle. It has diversity and would replace my current transponder, plus give me backup attitude all in one package. But that alone is nearly $5k + labor, mostly done for the next owner and I doubt that this upgrade would increase the value of the plane by $5k when/if I decide to upgrade in 2, 3, 4 or however many years. If not having ADS-B out bothers me on my next trip to the States, I can always put in a regular tailbeacon - they're becoming fairly cheap on the used market, don't take much in labor to put in and simply squawk through the existing x-ponder.

Consider impact on CG. The 140 (well, at least my 140 did) can have the CG pretty far forward with lots of stuff in the panel.

Yup, same here. If I fly with my instructor and no bags, we're too far forward and I have to put stuff in the back to stay within balance. Not an issue on trips with the family though with the dog and all of our bags in the back of the plane.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far! I'll go price shopping on eBay based on these suggestions Keep 'em coming.

 

[WDD]

Nothing about flying is an investment.

To get it to IFR capable for training as well as future flying, I’d at the min do a GTN 650. You also need a more solid nav / com besides a navigator.

Do the cheapest adsb out you can

Replace the broken CDI with a working cdi/ glide slope that can switch from GPS and VLoc

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Nothing about flying is an investment.

It absolutely is. It keeps us sane and I heard it's a lot cheaper than therapy lol...

 

[murphey]

I’m baffled why there’s such an insistence on the 650. For light IFR and mostly VFR, seems to be overkill due to price and install costs.

 

[murphey]

It absolutely is. It keeps us sane and I heard it's a lot cheaper than therapy lol...

But therapy is tax deductible, often covered by insurance.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

I’m baffled why there’s such an insistence on the 650. For light IFR and mostly VFR, seems to be overkill due to price and install costs.

What would you suggest? I looked into the KLN94. I like the fact that it's a direct replacement for the broken KLN89 but I'm afraid it might be too basic, even for light IFR. What would be the next step up without having to change the entire instrument panel? Or maybe the KLN94 is perfectly fine in combination with an iPad and maybe keeping the Aera 500 in the panel as a backup after all?

 

[Jim K]

I’m baffled why there’s such an insistence on the 650. For light IFR and mostly VFR, seems to be overkill due to price and install costs.

What would you suggest? The newest 430's are 15 years old, require special data cards and readers, and then you get to twiddle knobs all day. You can get a standalone navigator for less money, but he really needs a newer nav/Com anyway. Actually @Rgbeard 's gnc 355 is a good one. You probably don't really NEED dual nav radios.

It really comes down to making a budget decision. A kln94 would do what you're talking about, and do it cheap. It's going to be a pain to update and I worry about how long they'll support the database, but It'd probably get you through a couple years. You might look into the database issue first and make sure they support Canada. Another question is if they can do Canada and the US simultaneously. I know the memory in them is so limited that they often omit intermediate fixes.

Every time I look into used equipment, it never seems like a value by the time you pay to get it installed. The kln89-94 upgrade might be the one exception because it's simply a slide in.

 

[WDD]

There is a reason the 650 is as popular as it is. And in this case with the ancient nav coms IMHO it’s just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

The 94 is obsolete and updates are a pain in the ass.

When you say updating them is a PITA, what do you mean? I found this link: https://www.bendixking.com/content/...nts/downloads/2022_WingmanServicesPricing.pdf

It shows that you can still get the Diskette for updates. Wouldn't that be a simple plug and play update? I can see how it might be a PITA to update it via Internet/Download only as you would probably need an ancient computer to do so... But, if $300 extra per year removes that PITA, it might be worth it...

And in this case with the ancient nav coms IMHO it’s just what the doctor ordered.

Come on, the MX 170C NavCom isn't ancient... It's more like medieval. The KX 175B NavCom really is ancient but I will toss this one. Do I legally need two NavComs for IFR training? If so, I can always install a second medieval NavCom in case one fails in flight and carry a handheld NavCom in my flight bag just in case.

 

[Jim K]

When you say updating them is a PITA

The only experience I have is watching my cfii update the 94 in the club archer. Downloading the database was no big deal, but he had some kind of story about the cable no longer being available, and of course it was an rs-232, so he had to try 4 usb- serial adapters before he could find one that would work, and BK's software only worked on like windows xp or something so he had to dig up an old laptop to do it. After all that it would still fail about 40%of the time. He hated that thing. If BK will actually mail the CF cards still, that would probably be well worth the money. Of course you're looking at close to $1000/ year. My garmin subscription runs about $300.

You don't really need dual navs any more. Identifying fixes by crossing radials almost doesn't exist any more with vor's so far apart. The gps counts as dme so you'll almost always be able to use that instead. It is nice if you're intercepting an ILS from a DME arc for example, but really gps can do that too. If you're going to go with an antique like a kln94..... dual nav's might be worth having as there's things like arc's that it can't do or won't be in the database.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

The gps counts as dme so you'll almost always be able to use that instead. It is nice if you're intercepting an ILS from a DME arc for example

This sounded like Chinese to me. I haven't even started instrument training yet - not even the ground school portion lol... I'll go back to this post after I start my IR training and make sense of all that haha.

 

[Jim K]

This sounded like Chinese to me. I haven't even started instrument training yet - not even the ground school portion lol... I'll go back to this post after I start my IR training and make sense of all that haha.

Lol. Learning the language is half the fun!

Short version is that the ILS that guides you down to the runway has a unique vhf frequency, as does the VOR that guides you enroute. With one nav radio it gets a little busy to tune and identify the new frequency when switching from one to the other.

The reason you want WAAS is that then the gps approaches usually have a glideslope and you fly them just like an ILS, as opposed to non- precision approaches with step-downs at certain distances.

It's hard to know what equipment is really useful before you know how to use it. I used to think that archer was pretty well equipped with dual kx165s and the kln94. Then I got my plane with the gtn750.... avionics have come a long way in 20 years. It's hard to believe the gtn is over 10 years old now.

 

[asicer]

As much as necessary, as little as possible ;-)

The cheapest route to modern equipment while adhering to your keep/ditch wish list that I can think of is:

- Kick out the KLN89B (don't think it's worth it trying to repair)
- Kick out the Garmin Aera 500 (it doesn't really add anything that the iPad and iPhone doesn't do)
- Kick out the KX 175B
- Kick out the inop VOR
- Add a non WAAS IFR certified GPS unit (not sure which one - any suggestions from you guys?)
- Install some sort of backup attitude indicator in the hole of the inop VOR

• Replace the KLN89B with a brand new Garmin GPS175 ($5k)
• Replace the Aera with an iPad ($0 because presumably you already have this)
  
• Replace the KX175B with a modern COM-only radio like the GTR225, GTR200B or Trig TY96A (~$2k)
• Replace the inop CDI (it will need to be connected to the GPS175, $2600 new but this is the only piece of equipment where I would consider something used)
• Replace your clock with a new uAvionix AV20S ($800).

In case you haven't guessed, I think you can get by with 2 COM plus 1 NAV plus 1 WAAS GPS and defer the ADSB because you're in Canada.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Being the complete opposite of knowledgeable about all that tech stuff (funnily enough, I work in tech - just not this kind of tech lol), could a non WAAS GPS unit be upgraded to a WAAS unit using the WAAS GPS of an ADS-B out unit installed later on?

 

[asicer]

Being the complete opposite of knowledgeable about all that tech stuff (funnily enough, I work in tech - just not this kind of tech lol), could a non WAAS GPS unit be upgraded to a WAAS unit using the WAAS GPS of an ADS-B out unit installed later on?

No, partly because there's certification involved.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

Been GPS shopping. Plenty of KLN94 available for not a lot of money and it's a direct slide in replacement for my KLN89B. Also looked at the GTN 650 and that's definitely more than what I want to spend for a plane I will mostly use for VFR missions. My only IFR missions are training and to have a bit more buffer when flying at night or VFR on top. Having said that, I found a lightly used Garmin 430W for $4,500 (Canadian). That's not too bad. Would that unit be much better than a KLN94? It's still more than twice the price of a KLN94, but if I get more than twice the product, maybe I'd go for it. Also, how big of a job would it be to install the 430W as I'm sure it's not compatible with the current slot of the KLN89B?

 

[Rgbeard]

Been GPS shopping. Plenty of KLN94 available for not a lot of money and it's a direct slide in replacement for my KLN89B. Also looked at the GTN 650 and that's definitely more than what I want to spend for a plane I will mostly use for VFR missions. My only IFR missions are training and to have a bit more buffer when flying at night or VFR on top. Having said that, I found a lightly used Garmin 430W for $4,500 (Canadian). That's not too bad. Would that unit be much better than a KLN94? It's still more than twice the price of a KLN94, but if I get more than twice the product, maybe I'd go for it. Also, how big of a job would it be to install the 430W as I'm sure it's not compatible with the current slot of the KLN89B?

For a few dollars more, ditch the 430W and consider a 175/355/375. 2019 vs. 1997.

 

[Jim K]

I wouldn't bother with a 430 for that much money. You'll spend as much or more putting it in compared to a modern unit, so probably $4k if I had to guess. I've used both a kln94 and a gnc430, and honestly they're very, very similar to use. WAAS is a big improvement, but like Rusty said if you're going to spend close to 10 amu, I'd go for newer equipment.

 

[asicer]

For a few dollars more, ditch the 430W and consider a 175/355/375. 2019 vs. 1997.

Is the 375 compatible with Aireon (Canadian ADSB)?

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

So essentially, ignoring all else (navcom, vor) and just talking about the GPS, it seems like my options are:

1. KLM94 for $2k installed (the unit is $1,500 and installation should be next to nothing as it goes into the KLM89b setup I already have).

2. Garmin GNC 430 for $6,000 installed (the unit I found is $4,500 leaving $1,500 for the installation - not sure if that’s too much or too little).

3. One of the later model Garmin for $10,000+ installled.

All prices are in Canadian Dollars.

1 would be a decent option as a temporary IR training platform but essentially the plane is still VFR for practical purposes.

2 seems to be only a small improvement over 1 so definitely not worth it considering the price is more than double.

3 would give me a solid IFR platform at a much higher cost and probably some significant downtime I assume.

Is anyone using the Cherokee 140/160 for real IFR flying? Let’s say I have all the latest tech on the plane, I would still be somewhat limited because of icing and the likes when going hard IFR, right? Also, I would imagine holding altitude reliably enough for IFR in the soup without autopilot on the Cherokee might be difficult. I’m getting bounced around in VFR weather quite a bit already lol.

 

[Jim K]

You'll find that the kind of stratus clouds you actually shoot low approaches through are usually pretty smooth. I did my instrument and flew a decent amount of ifr in the archer with no autopilot. Obviously ice is to be avoided, and that's going to be a bigger concern for you in Canadia. Iirc @David Megginson flew a fair bit of imc in Canada in a cherokee 160.

Low ifr really is more about your comfort level than equipment. You could fly an ils down to 200' on what you've got now. There's no reason a cherokee couldn't or shouldn't fly in low ifr, it's more of a question of how much time you want to have to find a field if the fan quits.

I would bet option 2 & 3 would be within $2000 of each other and about the same down time. The less stuff they have to interface, the quicker it will be. The gnc/gtn will take longer as they'll have to deal with the audio panel and antennas. A gps 175 would be the cheapest/ fastest way to get something new, but it doesn't solve your antique radio problem. Of course, neither does a kln.

 

[WDD]

Installation cost for an old 430 would be the same as a newer Garmin unit. Agree with Jim K above. I’d still do option 3 vs 2.

IMHO - IfR “light” or “temporary IFR training” option 1 is like saying “somewhat pregnant”. If IFR, you have to do everything IFR requires regardless if you don’t do IFR often, have high minimums, etc. I fly IfR in same plane that I trained and took check ride in.

 

[Bob Noel]

Is anyone using the Cherokee 140/160 for real IFR flying? .

my CFII used his 140 (stock engine) for IFR flying in New England - used it a lot. Obviously not in ice.

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

One last question and then I think I have enough to make a decision. Ideally I get it all sorted out before October so the plane can go to a shop while I'm in Europe for a few weeks on vacation - hopefully that's enough time to get it all installed.

Let's say I go with option 3 and new navcom (holding off on the x-ponder until ADS-B requirements are more firm in Canada) and in two or three years, I'm selling the Cherokee in order to upgrade to a, let's say, Cherokee 6 or similar - basically my forever plane at that point, would it make sense (cost wise) to take all that new, shiny and expensive equipment out of the Cherokee and put it in the Cherokee 6, assuming the one I buy has less capable equipment in it? I could hold on to all the stuff I currently have in the Cherokee and simply put it back in whenever I have to upgrade to my next plane. Any thoughts on this? Or would swapping avionics pretty much eat up any savings due to labor? Has anyone of you done this before, where you took your good equipment from the last plane to the next plane?

 

[Rgbeard]

Is the 375 compatible with Aireon (Canadian ADSB)?

I wouldn’t know and figure someone else might. Not my bailiwick.

 

[Rgbeard]

The Garmin 175/3xx series is NOT a 5-digit number.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/stpages/gps175.php

 

[Chrisgoesflying]

The Garmin 175/3xx series is NOT a 5-digit number.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/stpages/gps175.php

It's close when adding installation cost. It's $6,600 (CAD) plus whatever it costs to install ($2-3,000 I'm guessing?) so we're close enough to the $10k mark. I haven't seen any used units though so if I can source a good used unit, it might be the most economical option while still having a solid IFR platform.

 

[jrcox19]

Is the 375 compatible with Aireon (Canadian ADSB)?

No, doesn't have diversity (Top antenna) support.

 

[asicer]

Let's say I go with option 3 and new navcom

I'll reiterate what I proposed earlier: Why not upgrade to a modern WAAS GPS and drop down to a single NAV by replacing the NAV/COM that you don't like with a modern COM-only radio? Or is there something about Canadian flying where you really need 2 NAV despite the WAAS GPS?