Help me understand autopilot compatibility with the Garmin G5 and/or Dynon d10a.

Kevin16587

Kevin16587

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Kevin16587
Thanks in advance from a new, first time owner. The AI in my Archer is acting up and I'm facing a rebuild in the near future. I'd rather spend the extra money and replace it with either the Garmin or the Dynon. I don't want to eliminate the vacuum system (yet) and will keep all of the other steam instruments. My plane has a factory Century 21 AP that works really well and follows the heading bug. Are either of the options I mentioned compatible with my ancient AP? Is there an STC in the works for an AP that could replace my current one? I could go without an AP for a while but it would sure be nice to have when I start my IFR training.


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Replacing the autopilot is a big ticket item...at least until some of the firms building stuff for the EAB market get STCs for commercially built planes. Even then, I don't think it's ever going to be an "inexpensive" change for an IFR certified plane. If the Century is working probably best to keep maintaining it.
 
Kevin16587 said:
Thanks in advance from a new, first time owner. The AI in my Archer is acting up and I'm facing a rebuild in the near future. I'd rather spend the extra money and replace it with either the Garmin or the Dynon. I don't want to eliminate the vacuum system (yet) and will keep all of the other steam instruments. My plane has a factory Century 21 AP that works really well and follows the heading bug. Are either of the options I mentioned compatible with my ancient AP? Is there an STC in the works for an AP that could replace my current one? I could go without an AP for a while but it would sure be nice to have when I start my IFR training.


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Neither of these will do anything with your old autopilot. Install manuals are online for both, both use similar data communication architecture but neither resemble older legacy types found in certified aircraft.

Unknown if either brand is working on STCs for the experimental autopilots.
 
Thanks for the reply. I figured either option would render my existing AP inoperative.


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Kevin16587 said:
Thanks for the reply. I figured either option would render my existing AP inoperative.


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Only if you don't have room to keep the existing attitude indicator.
 
That's part of the problem. My panel is pretty full and I'd rather just toss the old AI rather than rebuild it and move it. I really hope something like the trutrak vision becomes available for a reasonable price and is compatible with a new electronic AI. Thanks again.


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Kevin16587 said:
That's part of the problem. My panel is pretty full and I'd rather just toss the old AI rather than rebuild it and move it. I really hope something like the trutrak vision becomes available for a reasonable price and is compatible with a new electronic AI. Thanks again.


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You really have to study each brand's manuals to get any idea how they work. It doesn't look to me like Trio uses an attitude indicator.
 
If you end up needing to keep your current setup, I recommend Rudy Aircraft Instruments as a repair shop. They are affordable, fast, and friendly. As for you autopilot to new technology woes, I'm useless.
 
Kevin16587 said:
That's part of the problem. My panel is pretty full and I'd rather just toss the old AI rather than rebuild it and move it. I really hope something like the trutrak vision becomes available for a reasonable price and is compatible with a new electronic AI. Thanks again.


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I just hit me, I don't think your existing autopilot is hooked to the turn coordinator. Pull that sucker and shove the autopilot's attitude indicator in that hole. Stick the G5/D10A in the hole vacated by the autopilot gyro.

Or just replace the turn coordinator with the G5/D10A.
 
I think your best course of action is to ditch the turn coordinator, overhaul and move your existing ADI there, and install the G5 in the primary spot.

That's exactly what I did. For the time being it's a great way to go because your AP will run off the backup. In a lot of ways this is actually an ideal setup; you'll have two ADIs to crosscheck and your primary will be a very reliable electronic ADI. I wouldn't pshaw the idea just because you need to keep your existing ADI. That's actually a benefit.
 
Ryan F. said:
I think your best course of action is to ditch the turn coordinator, overhaul and move your existing ADI there, and install the G5 in the primary spot.

That's exactly what I did. For the time being it's a great way to go because your AP will run off the backup. In a lot of ways this is actually an ideal setup; you'll have two ADIs to crosscheck and your primary will be a very reliable electronic ADI. I wouldn't pshaw the idea just because you need to keep your existing ADI. That's actually a benefit.
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Ditch the VSI before the turn coordinator. You can fly needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter much longer than you can fly airspeed, altimeter, VSI.
 
Have you read the STC for the dynon or G5 in your Archer? That's the best information on what it can be primary for and what needs to remain.

Also, I don't know, but doesn't your current AP take it's heading bug from the DG? That will probably still be there.
 
Clark1961 said:
Ditch the VSI before the turn coordinator. You can fly needle, ball, airspeed, altimeter much longer than you can fly airspeed, altimeter, VSI.
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The STCs allows replacement of existing primary attitude indicator or turn coordinator, none can be autopilot gyros. There is no other approved options under these STCs.
 
bnt83 said:
The STCs allows replacement of existing primary attitude indicator or turn coordinator, none can be autopilot gyros. There is no other approved options under these STCs.
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yet...patience grasshopper.:eek:
 
bnt83 said:
The STCs allows replacement of existing primary attitude indicator or turn coordinator, none can be autopilot gyros. There is no other approved options under these STCs.
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The VSI is not a required instrument. Nothing is being replaced. A non-required instrument is being removed.
 
bnt83 said:
The STCs allows replacement of existing primary attitude indicator or turn coordinator, none can be autopilot gyros. There is no other approved options under these STCs.
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But you can leave those other items in place and "add" a G5. Nothing in the STC prevents you from doing that.

I don't see much logic in replacing the VSI. True, it's not a required instrument, but no serious IFR aircraft lacks one. The G5's VSI works just fine but simply due to the size of the instrument it's hard to use for constant ROC or descent unless you adjust the scale to a delta which makes it less useful. On the other hand the rate of turn indicator is as good or better than the indication of mechanical turn coordinator and the G5 has an inclinometer built into it as well. In my opinion, users would find more utility in replacing the turn coordinator and leaving a backup ADI in place.
 
Ryan F. said:
But you can leave those other items in place and "add" a G5. Nothing in the STC prevents you from doing that.

I don't see much logic in replaand the rate of turn indicator is as good or better than the indication of mechanical turn coordinator and the G5 has an inclinometer built into it as cing the VSI. True, it's not a required instrument, but no serious IFR aircraft lacks one. The G5's VSI works just fine but simply due to the size of the instrument it's hard to use for constant ROC or descent unless you adjust the scale to a delta which makes it less useful. On the other hwell. In my opinion, users would find more utility in replacing the turn coordinator and leaving a backup ADI in place.
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I suggested keeping it if there was room in post #5, didn't mean to imply that wasn't an option in #13.

That additional info is interesting tho and agree with you about the VSI.
 
Ryan F. said:
But you can leave those other items in place and "add" a G5. Nothing in the STC prevents you from doing that.

I don't see much logic in replacing the VSI. True, it's not a required instrument, but no serious IFR aircraft lacks one. The G5's VSI works just fine but simply due to the size of the instrument it's hard to use for constant ROC or descent unless you adjust the scale to a delta which makes it less useful. On the other hand the rate of turn indicator is as good or better than the indication of mechanical turn coordinator and the G5 has an inclinometer built into it as well. In my opinion, users would find more utility in replacing the turn coordinator and leaving a backup ADI in place.
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You don't understand the logic of leaving a turn coordinator in place? Okay then. I can't help you with the choice of leaving an independent gyro on the panel.
 
Clark1961 said:
You don't understand the logic of leaving a turn coordinator in place? Okay then. I can't help you with the choice of leaving an independent gyro on the panel.
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The G5/D10A are not only independent gyros but are required to have their own standby batteries in case of electrical power loss.

RATIONALE FOR CHANGE.
a. Substituting a second attitude indicator (with a power source independent from the primary attitude indicator) for the rate-of-turn indicator will provide an increased level of safety. It will replace a gyro that only indicates direction and rate of turn with one instrument that presents turn direction, bank angle, and pitch attitude information. Also, a second attitude indicator will be less confusing during partial panel operations because it presents pitch and bank information in the same manner as the primary attitude indicator. The pilot’s scan and instrument interpretation during partial panel operations becomes easier because pilots will still be able to rely on an attitude indicator for pitch and bank reference just as they did during full panel operations. Recognition time that a failure condition exists will be equivalent to current system configurations.

b. Replacing the rate-of-turn indicator will mean losing an easy reference for standard rate turns. However, in today’s air traffic control system, there is little need for precisely measured standard rate turns or timed turns based on standard rate. Maintaining a given bank angle on the attitude indicator for a given speed will result in a standard rate turn. Pilots using this AC to substitute an attitude indicator for their rate-of-turn indicator are encouraged to know the bank angle needed for a standard rate turn.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf
 
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bnt83 said:
The G5/D10A are not only independent gyros but are required to have their own standby batteries in case of electrical power loss.

RATIONALE FOR CHANGE.
a. Substituting a second attitude indicator (with a power source independent from the primary attitude indicator) for the rate-of-turn indicator will provide an increased level of safety. It will replace a gyro that only indicates direction and rate of turn with one instrument that presents turn direction, bank angle, and pitch attitude information. Also, a second attitude indicator will be less confusing during partial panel operations because it presents pitch and bank information in the same manner as the primary attitude indicator. The pilot’s scan and instrument interpretation during partial panel operations becomes easier because pilots will still be able to rely on an attitude indicator for pitch and bank reference just as they did during full panel operations. Recognition time that a failure condition exists will be equivalent to current system configurations.

b. Replacing the rate-of-turn indicator will mean losing an easy reference for standard rate turns. However, in today’s air traffic control system, there is little need for precisely measured standard rate turns or timed turns based on standard rate. Maintaining a given bank angle on the attitude indicator for a given speed will result in a standard rate turn. Pilots using this AC to substitute an attitude indicator for their rate-of-turn indicator are encouraged to know the bank angle needed for a standard rate turn.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC91-75.pdf
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This is the rational for replacing one gyro over another gyro. It is not the rational for choosing to replace a gyro instead of a vsi. Sorry.
 
Clark1961 said:
You don't understand the logic of leaving a turn coordinator in place? Okay then. I can't help you with the choice of leaving an independent gyro on the panel.
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Uh, no, what I'm saying is leave the old ATTITUDE INDICATOR plus the new G5. That makes for two gyros, two independent sources of power, and a backup source (battery) for the G5. It's better to keep the VSI, keep the old attitude indicator, ADD the G5, and ditch the turn coordinator -- unless you need it for your autopilot.

I.e., why would anyone want a turn coordinator instead of a full blown attitude indicator for backup.
 
bnt83 said:
b. Replacing the rate-of-turn indicator will mean losing an easy reference for standard rate turns. However, in today’s air traffic control system, there is little need for precisely measured standard rate turns or timed turns based on standard rate. Maintaining a given bank angle on the attitude indicator for a given speed will result in a standard rate turn. Pilots using this AC to substitute an attitude indicator for their rate-of-turn indicator are encouraged to know the bank angle needed for a standard rate turn.
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Agree with everything you said, but the G5 includes a rate of turn indicator, not to mention an inclinometer, so there's really no need to keep the turn coordinator even for that reason. Again, the primary reason I think some would keep the TC would be if it drives an autopilot.
 
Why don't you call Chuck at Trio Avionics and ask him about compatibility with the Pro Pilot A/P ? We'll have an STC for the PA28 type install kit early summer and PMA for the A/P at AirVenture
 
There's a possible group buy going for the Trio by the Delphi Forum Comanche Owners' group. I'm tempted, but I suspect we may see some other low-cost options appear in the next 1-2 years. For now my old Altimatic III is still plugging along, so I have the luxury of waiting.
 
Ryan F. said:
Uh, no, what I'm saying is leave the old ATTITUDE INDICATOR plus the new G5. That makes for two gyros, two independent sources of power, and a backup source (battery) for the G5. It's better to keep the VSI, keep the old attitude indicator, ADD the G5, and ditch the turn coordinator -- unless you need it for your autopilot.

I.e., why would anyone want a turn coordinator instead of a full blown attitude indicator for backup.
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You are entirely missing the point. Leave the attitude indicator. Leave the turn coordinator. Install the new attitude indicator. Remove the VSI.

Got it? or do you need a picture?
 
Okay. I get it, but it makes no sense to me whatsoever. Can't see any benefit to ditching the VSI to keep the turn coordinator, two attitude indicators, and another rate of turn indicator + inclinometer which is portrayed on the G5 itself. The VSI on the G5 is usable, but very small. Why you would want an overwhelming amount of attitude information minus an instrument which is often used as primary for pitch during instrument flying is beyond me, but it's your panel, Clark.
 
The STCs are a real pain. I put an ASPEN 1000 in my bonanza, and I could not utilize the VFR version of the device because I had an autopilot (which used the turn coordinator). I could not even keep my DG for the heading mode of the Stec 60-2. I had to bite the bullet for the IFR version. The STC for the G5 does not permit autopilot hook up either. I went with the L3 for my backup attitude gyro and I am considering putting the G5 in my C172 and take the vacuum instrument to put it in as a 3rd attitude back up. Having just finished a flight from FDK (MD) to KSEE (CA), I really missed the VSI. Seeing and flying from the popup VSI on the ASPEN is a real pain to have constant VS decents or climbs. I may put the VSI instrument back in plane.
 
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