Help me pick a plane (UPDATE: PICKED ONE)

Ed Haywood said:
Honestly, I have little interest in flying a Cirrus, for reasons including but not limited to cost. I don't want to derail the dialogue with a Coke-vs-Pepsi topic, so let's just say the budget doesn't work. I doubt a fractional or leasing arrangement would work. I feel I need the kind of scheduling flexibility that only sole ownership or perhaps a small partnership can provide.
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Yep, at $70-80k an SR22 is well out of range, and so are SR20s. I have a share in one and they are great for travelling, one of several that would be great for what you want to do, but not in your budget.

You might be surprised about a partnership. If you are mostly doing weekday trips that would mesh well with someone, or two, working a typical Monday - Friday workweek and wanting a plane for weekend trips. In the partnerships I've been in the plane is typically in the hangar during the weekdays. Occasionally someone is off on a week long trip, but the norm has been the plane is in the hangar.





Wayne
 
zaitcev said:
I only ever bought and sold on Barnstormers. Had some contacts over TAP, but it never connected.
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Thanks for the insight on Mooney vs Arrow. Maybe I'll look closer at an M20F. Price seems to be right. I don't need usable rear seats.

I've spent a lot of time on Barnstormers over the years looking at acro birds and homebuilts. There are 24 Arrows listed on TAP, and only 10 on BS.
 
@Deelee Yep, that's one I was looking at. Super nice avionics upgrade with the G5's, GTN 650 and GTX 375. Guess it has been sitting on the market for a while. What steered you away? Other than the seller running a shell company for a drug cartel, I mean.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Thanks for the insight on Mooney vs Arrow. Maybe I'll look closer at an M20F. Price seems to be right. I don't need usable rear seats.

I've spent a lot of time on Barnstormers over the years looking at acro birds and homebuilts. There are 24 Arrows listed on TAP, and only 10 on BS.
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F is a mid body, so rear seats are very usable, short bodies (E or C) not so much.
 
@wayne

I think aircraft partnerships make great sense. Unfortunately I was once in one that didn't end well. Mostly my fault, and I could certainly have avoided the issue that arose with some foresight, but my wife is now skeptical of such arrangements. Beyond that, I need to preserve my ability to sell out quickly in a year or two, should the need arise. My perception is that partnership shares can take a lot longer to liquidate.
 
The problem with partnerships is you have to sell to someone local. So a very limited potential buyers.
 
Honestly, I'm managing too many relationships in my life, and I don't need or want one more. Zero interest in a new airplane friend. I'd rather up my budget.

Grummans catching my eye a little. Not many on the market though.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Honestly, I'm managing too many relationships in my life, and I don't need or want one more. Zero interest in a new airplane friend. I'd rather up my budget.

Grummans catching my eye a little. Not many on the market though.
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They are getting scarce. It's easier to find a 150 hp AA5, but for your travel requirements you'd want a Tiger.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Honestly, I'm managing too many relationships in my life, and I don't need or want one more. Zero interest in a new airplane friend. I'd rather up my budget.

Grummans catching my eye a little. Not many on the market though.
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I just bought one last week. Extremely difficult to find - you need to be prepared to commit with a deposit immediately. The good ones are gone same day posted. I found mine off market through a trusted referral. Range is going to be a stretch. Tiger is the "easy" call, but a properly equipped Cheetah will do close or as well except on payload - high 700s for Cheetah. Full tanks and you've got 2 regular people plus light bags. Plan at 10 GPH, burn 9 GPH. 5 hours x 125 to 130 KTAS. Canopy way better than all those single door options IMO, especially in FLA.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Got plenty of cash on hand, can pay in full on the spot. Moving fast is not an issue for the right plane. More a matter of me not knowing enough to differentiate a good buy from a ripoff yet.

2 people plus light bags is all I will ever need.

A Cheetah just popped up on TAP today over in Kissimmee, about an hour from me. Looks really clean.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=&make=GRUMMAN/AMERICAN+GENERAL&model=AA5A+CHEETAH&listing_id=2383478&s-type=aircraft&s-seq=1&s-lvl=4
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That one has been around a couple weeks. It popped up when I was already in process on mine. It seems OK, but honestly, not sure why it's still around - maybe slightly high $$? Maybe history issue? No clue. But definitely worth a call. You can find some youtube from the current owner. I searched many, many months and saw most come and go in a day or 3.
 
Ad says all logs, but does not address damage history. Probably got banged up at some point. Doesn't bother me if it happened a while ago, was properly repaired, and is appropriately reflected in the price. Based on your experience with that type, must be something going on. Price does seem high relative to aircraft capability and avionics. Too bad TAP doesn't show listing price history like Zillow.

Just about every Arrow on TAP has a "story". Found one in CO with very nice avionics, googled the N number, and found a picture of it sitting on a highway in California with the wingtip torn off in 2012.

I'm told it is a buyer's market right now due to COVID. Was that your experience?
 
I "thought" it would be a buyer's market, but that is not what i found for Grummans. A friend listed his Tiger 1 day, had 3 full price offers and decided not to sell. While I was doing my PPI there was a Tiger there that had just been purchased sight unseen and ferried to the shop from 1500 miles away. That said, they are less expensive than comparably equipped 172s and Archers while flying more efficiently, a bit faster and way cooler. That price might be slightly high, but only slightly based on what i've seen the past half year. It has a bunch of good stuff on it. The obvious upgrades would be a Sensinich prop and powerflow exhaust to get it a bit quicker and/or climb better, plus whatever avionics you'd want - though it seems easily serviceable as is. I think it's worth a call.

You can absolutely get a solid AA5A or B for your budget. Likely with late 90's or early 2000's IFR stack, mid time engine and decent P&I (7+/-), maybe and AP. And generally there's some headroom. You won't likely lose a ton if you need some modest upgrades, etc. Tigers generally run 10k more than Cheetahs for comp planes.
 
I don’t think it’s a buyer’s market, quality planes seem to go quickly, within a few days after being posted. I know one broker that sells planes before they get posted (he has a mailing list for serious buyers).
 
LOL, I'm guessing that's some kind of POA inside joke that I'm too new to get.

The Cheetah is on contract already.

I keep circling back to an Arrow. Looks like several of them come on the market every week. More choice = better chance of picking and choosing what I want, rather than jumping on something scarce.

If anyone sees anything interesting on TAP or Barnstormers, please give me a heads up.

Are there any modern social media (Twitter/FB/etc) forums for plane sales?
 
Embarrassed that I missed that. I do like gladiator movies. And don't call me Shirley. But you won't slip an Animal House or Monty Python quote past me.
 
What the OP is looking to spend will buy a lot of short body Mooney. Won't buy much J though. A well modded E will keep up with a 201 handily. Get an E or a C with all the instruments you want, cheaper that way. Beware, if the tanks haven't got bladders or haven't been redone in one of the two shops in the country that do it, they're either leaking or they will leak, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
 
Two place, high speed...sounds like an RV. Maybe a 4 or 6. May need a little more money up front.
 
I fly a Cardinal and would not recommend it for your mission. Lots of room in a Cardinal that you won't be using. All that room transfers to drag.
 
Ed Haywood said:
LOL, I'm guessing that's some kind of POA inside joke that I'm too new to get.

The Cheetah is on contract already.

I keep circling back to an Arrow. Looks like several of them come on the market every week. More choice = better chance of picking and choosing what I want, rather than jumping on something scarce.

If anyone sees anything interesting on TAP or Barnstormers, please give me a heads up.

Are there any modern social media (Twitter/FB/etc) forums for plane sales?
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Man, that was a short grumman bromance.

This is the most active I'm aware of.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Aircraft.for.sale/?ref=share

Sent from my SM-G960U1 using Tapatalk
 
I am in a similar situation to you and was about to post a similar OP-Ed post when I came across this. I have most my time in arrows and feel very comfortable with them. Trouble I find with most on the market is they are most often used as trainers, so they have high TT and most likely a lot of hard landings. Mooneys look like a really good deal now. I am assuming that has something to do with how they went out of business again. I share your concerns about landing them consistently, and I have a family of 4 that probably wouldn't appreciate me having them sit in one for long. Honestly, I sat in an E once and didn't like the foot well claustrophobia much. They maybe a good option for you though. Just make sure you sit in one first.
 
CRQFlier said:
Man, that was a short grumman bromance.
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LOL, I'm still very receptive, but as you pointed out, there aren't many out there and they disappear fast. I texted the owner the night I saw the ad, and he responded the next day that it was gone. Too bad, was less than an hour away from me, would have been a really easy buying process.

At this point I'm not fixated on a specific model. I'm open to anything that meets my criteria, which are:
  1. comfortable with 2 people and light bags
  2. 600 mile trips non-stop in 4 to 4.5 hours
  3. suitable for instrument training
  4. cost 60-70k
  5. not a maintenance dog, no big surprises
  6. easily resellable
Beyond that, I don't have a lot of time to scour the country looking for the perfect plane. Got more cash than time right now, so I want to find it, buy it, and fly it.

I've got the money to go higher. The catch is that I might need that cash in a year or two for my kid's tuition. Or I might not. Am also in negotiations with wife on prospect of ski condo in CO if COVID causes a market adjustment this winter. So if I pay more than my range, I would need a strong level of confidence that I could recover most of that money quickly next summer or the year after, without a protracted sales process. To me that means no iffy logs or unusual damage, unless aggressively priced into my initial cost. It also means I don't care all that much about paint, interior, or avionics. I think about the only thing I am hard over on avionics would be GPS WAAS, with a G430W being the minimum capability.
 
We had that problem looking for our Arrow, too. Finally found one with < 3000 TT and almost zero toward the wing spar AD factored hours. Super clean in terms of corrosion. Just a high time engine. But we knew that going in to the deal. Gotta be patient and not settle for something you are going to be unhappy with, I guess. Factor things like ancient avionics and high time engines into the price you are willing to pay. Those are things that can be fixed (avionics can be upgraded, engines overhauled). For some reason, a high-time airframe on a trainer-class aircraft doesn't make me comfortable and it's hard to factor that into any asking price.
 
I can remember back in the 90's browsing and seeing a plane with 5000+ hours and freaking out. The wings were going to fall off any minute. Now there are airframes with ++10K on them.

If I wanted to keep it long term, I would certainly lean towards a lower TTAF. But given my intention to be a temporary owner, I'm comfortable with anything under 8K TT and 1200 SMOH. It ain't gonna hit 10K on my watch.

Add that to the list of reasons I love tube and fabric taildraggers. Every 30 years you rip the cover off, inspect, and recover. Viola, it's a new airplane.

Speaking of cheap Arrows, WTH is up with these two?
https://barnstormers.com/classified-1513820-Piper-Arrow-priced-to-sell.html?catid=21160
https://barnstormers.com/classified-1590381-Piper-Arrow-180.html?catid=21160
 
WDD said:
“Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor!”
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"Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."
 
kujo806 said:
I have most my time in arrows and feel very comfortable with them. Trouble I find with most on the market is they are most often used as trainers, so they have high TT and most likely a lot of hard landings.
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I thought they had an AD out for Arrows after the wing flew off one during a checkride in ERAU, with a loss of both DPE and applicant of course. As long as you comply with that AD, wings aren't going to fall off your Arrow. But not being a PA-28R owner presently I'm mostly ignorant of that situation.
Ed Haywood said:
If I wanted to keep it long term, I would certainly lean towards a lower TTAF.
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Are you sure it's TTAF and not the spar condition that matters? Arrow is not life-limited, unlike Tomahawk, or at least used to be.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I'm open to anything that meets my criteria, which are:
  1. comfortable with 2 people and light bags
  2. 600 mile trips non-stop in 4 to 4.5 hours
  3. suitable for instrument training
  4. cost 60-70k
  5. not a maintenance dog, no big surprises
  6. easily resellable
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That description sounds like the LSA trainers that many modern flight schools are using. A used Sling 2, Lightning, Remos or CTLS would easily check those boxes. The only downside being, they cannot fly into IMC.

But, if you search out an RV-12 with an EA-B airworthiness cert you can get around that and have a 2 seat + light baggage 4.5gph fuel supper that can be used for IFR training and flying.
 
Ed Haywood said:
At this point I'm not fixated on a specific model. I'm open to anything that meets my criteria, which are:
  1. comfortable with 2 people and light bags
  2. 600 mile trips non-stop in 4 to 4.5 hours
  3. suitable for instrument training
  4. cost 60-70k
  5. not a maintenance dog, no big surprises
  6. easily resellable
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You just described a short-body Mooney. To do 600nm without a stop you'll need long range tanks, but they're available. Like the man said, sit in one first. You won't find an RV that has a decent IFR setup for that money, sorry. Moreover, you won't put any but the lightest of bags in one. The earlier Mooneys have the Johnson bar gear, simplest and most easily maintained retraction system going. Hand-pumped hydraulic flaps, again stone simple. Acquisition and maintenance costs are the most diminutive for any complex single.
 
GeorgeC said:
What LSA can do 600 in 4.5?

M20C/E and done. @Salty, didn't you do a flight like that recently?
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600 miles is only 521nm, that can becovered in 4 hours at 115knots.

RV-12s are trading for around $60K with glass panels. Add a GNX175, and you have an IFR panel for under $70K.
 
MarkH said:
600 miles is only 521nm, that can becovered in 4 hours at 115knots.

RV-12s are trading for around $60K with glass panels. Add a GNX175, and you have an IFR panel for under $70K.
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Factor in lower fuel burn (5.5 GPH at 5,500 RPM) means less fuel and weight, plus the Rotax 912 is proven for its reliability.
 
rtk11 said:
Factor in lower fuel burn (5.5 GPH at 5,500 RPM) means less fuel and weight, plus the Rotax 912 is proven for its reliability.
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MarkH said:
600 miles is only 521nm, that can becovered in 4 hours at 115knots.

RV-12s are trading for around $60K with glass panels. Add a GNX175, and you have an IFR panel for under $70K.
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Have any of you actually flown in an RV12 for that duration? My one flight was fun, but that wasn't an airplane I wanted to take to Florida. Moroeover, no RV is going to accommodate all the crap taken by your average female for your average trip. RVs are great planes, but they aren't for everything.
 
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