Help me determine how much insurance to get. ...please

How about some examples of what would be considered negligence, and what would be considered an accident?

If a student pilot is soloing, pattern work. About to touch down, gets a good gust of wind, and something goes awry, something gets broken on the plane. For ****s and giggles, takes out part of the VASI. Negligence for not recognizing the problem quick enough and initiating a go around, or would it be deemed an accident because the student is still gaining experience to recognize a problem?
 
MDeitch1976 said:
How about some examples of what would be considered negligence, and what would be considered an accident?

If a student pilot is soloing, pattern work. About to touch down, gets a good gust of wind, and something goes awry, something gets broken on the plane. For ****s and giggles, takes out part of the VASI. Negligence for not recognizing the problem quick enough and initiating a go around, or would it be deemed an accident because the student is still gaining experience to recognize a problem?
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Instructor placed limitation on solo endorsement stating "<15kts x-wind" and you decide to go up when there is a 30kt x-wind and prang the plane, you are negligent. If you go within the dictates of your endorsements and are practicing lands, you get a bounce, you freak out and end up in a PIO and on the 3rd bounce you finally collapse the nose gear. That is an accident with no negligence; you were following the rules and instruction did your best and messed up.
 
PIO?

Good call. I guess unless there is a drastic change in the winds after initially take off, there probably is not going to be powerful wind gusts?

How about this one. Turning base to final at a non towered airport. Stall out plane freak out, and pull the BRS. Plane lands on top of someones car. Is it Negligence because you allowed the airspeed to allow the plane to stall? What if this happened because someone else was coming in on a long final and decided not to announce their location, and the stall occurred when you noticed action would have to be taken because of discovery of this unannounced aircraft?
 
MDeitch1976 said:
PIO?

Good call. I guess unless there is a drastic change in the winds after initially take off, there probably is not going to be powerful wind gusts?

How about this one. Turning base to final at a non towered airport. Stall out plane freak out, and pull the BRS. Plane lands on top of someones car. Is it Negligence because you allowed the airspeed to allow the plane to stall? What if this happened because someone else was coming in on a long final and decided not to announce their location, and the stall occurred when you noticed action would have to be taken because of discovery of this unannounced aircraft?
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PIO= Pilot Induced Oscillation.

Your example is immaterial because the pilot eliminated having a survivable option when he pulled the chute at that altitude; regardless, for a student pilot to allow airspeed to get too low is not negligence, just a mistake.
 
Henning said:
Considering the detail in which log book enries are made, the possibility that it will show that the instructor covered every detail will be pretty damned difficult to establish, especially in court.
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Hokum. If the instructor did what the FAA requires, the Student will be on the hook for any failings in those areas unless the Student can prove the entries were false or fraudulent.

And if you can show me a case where a Student Pilot flying solo avoided liability damages to a third party solely on the basis of being s Student Pilot who had not taken an checkride, I'd like to see it.
 
Henning said:
Instructor placed limitation on solo endorsement stating "<15kts x-wind" and you decide to go up when there is a 30kt x-wind and prang the plane, you are negligent. If you go within the dictates of your endorsements and are practicing lands, you get a bounce, you freak out and end up in a PIO and on the 3rd bounce you finally collapse the nose gear. That is an accident with no negligence; you were following the rules and instruction did your best and messed up.
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Actually, the first case is not plain negligence, it is an intentional tort, as the Student was operating in violation of the regulations. The second case could indeed be considered negligence on the Student's part because a reasonable person might feel the Student failed in the duty to be careful.

Henning, please learn more about the law before posting any more on this.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
How about this one. Turning base to final at a non towered airport. Stall out plane freak out, and pull the BRS. Plane lands on top of someones car. Is it Negligence because you allowed the airspeed to allow the plane to stall?
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It could well be construed as such.

What if this happened because someone else was coming in on a long final and decided not to announce their location, and the stall occurred when you noticed action would have to be taken because of discovery of this unannounced aircraft?
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That still might well be considered negligent, i.e., failing in one's duty to be careful, by a jury. A jury might also find the other pilot negligent for failing to use his/her radio (if s/he had one).
 
Henning said:
PIO= Pilot Induced Oscillation.

Your example is immaterial because the pilot eliminated having a survivable option when he pulled the chute at that altitude; regardless, for a student pilot to allow airspeed to get too low is not negligence, just a mistake.
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No, it could still be considered negligence, that is, a failure to meet one's duty to be careful.
 
FWIW I make pretty detailed entries. I also have a checklist of the verbiage of the things one is required to have been taught to solo. I go through the checklist and write down the dates that I taught those items and double check that their in the logbook before I provide the solo endorsements.
 
jconway2002 said:
Hello,

I am 7 hours into my training, and looking into getting renters insurance.
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I would say go ahead and get it for your peace of mind. It is sort of a pointless policy to buy with not much benefits, as with most aircraft policies if there was a claim no matter what the cause the insurance company can always find you negligent for what ever reason and refuse the claim anyways.
 
flyer said:
I would say go ahead and get it for your peace of mind. It is sort of a pointless policy to buy with not much benefits, as with most aircraft policies if there was a claim no matter what the cause the insurance company can always find you negligent for what ever reason and refuse the claim anyways.
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Insurance companies do not get to decide on your negligence if you don't let them, they'll have to prove it in court\ because they have to sue you for it, it's a subrogation issue. They have to pay regardless because the renter is NOT the primary insured party. You aren't paying for the accident because the insurance is denying the claim, the insurance company is seeking reimbursement and they will have to sue you for it in court and prove your negligence to a jury to the point they think it's satisfactory for issuing them a judgement. That is very rare indeed without an egregious act.

Here are the Elements of Negligence under Florida Law, most states will be the same (Louisiana, you're on your own with Napoleonic Code:rofl:):
  1. Legal Duty
    • In order for a plaintiff to establish a prima facie case for negligence, the defendant must have a legal duty or obligation to use reasonable care to protect the plaintiff from foreseeable, unreasonable risks. This duty is generally met by adhering to a recognized standard of care. In Florida, the standard of care is one of a "reasonably prudent person." The reasonable person standard refers to how a reasonable individual would act under comparable circumstances.
    Breach of Duty

    • Breach of duty is the second element of negligence. Breach of duty is failure to conform to the required standard of care. Breach of duty is proved by direct or indirect evidence. Direct evidence applies where there exists direct factual proof that a defendant's omissions or acts caused damage to the plaintiff. Indirect evidence is typically circumstantial. Res ipsa loquitor, meaning "the thing speaks for itself," is a form of circumstantial evidence where a trier of fact may infer negligence from the fact that damages occurred.
    Causation

    • In Florida, proximate cause is a necessary element of negligence. Proximate cause means that causation cannot be too remote from the defendant's acts or omissions. In other words, the causal chain must not be interrupted by unforeseeable, independent forces. If a defendant should have foreseen an increased chance of an injury to a plaintiff as a result of the defendant's negligence, proximate cause exists.
    Damages

    • Damage is a necessary element of negligence. Negligence requires a plaintiff to prove material damages. Pain and suffering, economic loss and damage to property are all recoverable. Future damages --- commonly in the form of lost earnings --- can be recovered if it was foreseeable they would result as a consequence of a defendant's negligent conduct. Florida is a comparative fault state. As such, a plaintiff's damages may be reduced if it is proved that she contributed to her injury in any way.
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  1. Now here's the standard Jury Instruction issued by the judge as per the state of FL,​
401.4 NEGLIGENCE
​
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  1. Negligence is the failure to use reasonable care, which is the care that a reasonably careful person would use under like circumstances. Negligence is doing something that a reasonably careful person would not do under like circumstances or failing to do something that a reasonably careful person would do under like circumstances.
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How do you prove that the solo student didn't use reasonable care?
 
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Henning said:
Insurance companies do not get to decide on your negligence if you don't let them, they'll have to prove it in court.
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They decide all the time without court, ive seen it happen to pilots and owners for both "in motion" and "not in motion" claims.
 
flyer said:
They decide all the time without court, ive seen it happen to pilots and owners for both "in motion" and "not in motion" claims.
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Really, how do they get them to pay up a subrogation claim without a court finding of negligence? You're all thinking incorrectly here, the insurance can't deny the claim, they can only subrogate the costs to them. The student is NOT the insured party. They have to sue the student to get back the money they paid the insured.
 
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jconway2002 said:
Ah, a straight answer. Gracias! :wink2:
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Keep in mind that doing $10k in damage to an airplane is not a super difficult thing to do. So Henning's precise answer isn't going to be right for everyone

You:
-Look at your assets
-Understand the worse case scenario (totaled airplane and big liability suit)
-Understand most likely scenario (couple thousand in damage up to full value)

Then you:
-Decide the risk you're willing to take

This is no different then car insurance.

Just remember that the FBO's insurance policy is designed to protect the FBO. Not you. The FBO cannot stop the insurance company from hanging you. If the insurance company decides to take action against you they will.

I spend about 15 minutes with every student I get talking about insurance and making sure they understand the risk. Typically those with assets to lose are buying the most insurance. Those that barely have enough money to pay for one lesson at a time and have no substantial income in their future do not.
 
jesse said:
Keep in mind that doing $10k in damage to an airplane is not a super difficult thing to do. So Henning's precise answer isn't going to be right for everyone

You:
-Look at your assets
-Understand the worse case scenario (totaled airplane and big liability suit)
-Understand most likely scenario (couple thousand in damage up to full value)

Then you:
-Decide the risk you're willing to take

This is no different then car insurance.

Just remember that the FBO's insurance policy is designed to protect the FBO. Not you. The FBO cannot stop the insurance company from hanging you. If the insurance company decides to take action against you they will.

I spend about 15 minutes with every student I get talking about insurance and making sure they understand the risk. Typically those with assets to lose are buying the most insurance. Those that barely have enough money to pay for one lesson at a time and have no substantial income in their future do not.
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Yes, this is where the confusion comes in...how much insurance do I need? I own a $235,000 condo and fly a Cessna 152. I make 60k a year, but wont have much of a savings once flight training, and this wedding are completed. So...how much do I need? I wish there was an excel spreadsheet I could fill out that would tell me.
 
jconway2002 said:
Yes, this is where the confusion comes in...how much insurance do I need? I own a $235,000 condo and fly a Cessna 152. I make 60k a year, but wont have much of a savings once flight training, and this wedding are completed. So...how much do I need? I wish there was an excel spreadsheet I could fill out that would tell me.
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Well that Cessna 152 is worth 30 grand at best..probably not that much. Most likely you'd have a hard time doing more then $15 grand worth of damage and walk away alive.

So your main asset is the condo. Without knowing how much equity you have and with me not being a financial advisor or a lawyer I can't really say if you should be worried about protecting it.

Based on what you wrote above and you currently flying a 152 the Gold is probably fine. It's not likely it'd be worth the insurance companies time to do much against you and that $10k would likely cover the majority of damages.

If you start flying a more expensive airplane you might consider more insurance.
 
jconway2002 said:
Ah, a straight answer. Gracias! :wink2:
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Here's the deal, it's hard to recommend a level of insurance over a web board especially when hamstrung with inadequate information from which I need data to determine a proper set of answers. Considering the insurance industry standard Business / Personal policy will be structured $100k per pax $1MM total per incident, and you have a $10k dollar limit on your liability towards the aircraft owner which will be the amount of the deductible on his policy. $10k is the industry high deductible at this level of insured value, most people carry less. So with the policy offered you'll have minimum standard coverage they've determined you'll be likely to need; the premium isn't bad either.

If I insure, and I ran the first 80hrs of my 310 bare, took my first flight in it from DVT to Stead.:D Before I flew into OSH though I made sure I was bound, I carry the same coverage but I have my hull insured as well.

Another premium upgrade if available in the non owner market would be 'Smooth' coverage. That eliminates the $100k per person restriction. This is an issue right now in Dallas where a high value individual walked into a prop and was mutilated. If the policies had been Smooth, the insurance companies wouldn't be able to leave the responsible party exposed.

Oh, since you're a new pilot I'd like to take a moment to bring up prop safety. The PIC of an aircraft should never let an unescorted passenger come within 20' of your prop before you shut the engine down. Maneuvering around the ramp and such, be ready to pull the mixture at a moments notice, especially at places that have an airport 'community'; dogs and kids, props are not friendly. Anybody/thing on even a close tangent to your prop arc and you shut down.

Boarding and unboarding people with the engine running.... I don't unless it's a pilot or mechanic I know well. I worked with a guy, we were setting up the fuel controller on a 210; I was inside the plane at the controls, he was working behind the running prop. He stood to go get a tool and as he stood he started to turn so I pulled the mixture as he was getting his forehead smacked! He looked back at me and I said "Dude, you still have a face!" That was scary as hell.
 
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Just wanted to say thanks to you guys for giving your thoughts...scaring me with your stories. I feel like I have an idea of what I need to feel secure now.
 
jconway2002 said:
Just wanted to say thanks to you guys for giving your thoughts...scaring me with your stories. I feel like I have an idea of what I need to feel secure now.
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Aviation is scary, let that fear cause you to think twice about what's going on around you.
 
jconway2002 said:
Yes, this is where the confusion comes in...how much insurance do I need? I own a $235,000 condo and fly a Cessna 152. I make 60k a year, but wont have much of a savings once flight training, and this wedding are completed. So...how much do I need? I wish there was an excel spreadsheet I could fill out that would tell me.
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Point of order: Do you own the condo or does the bank? What you actually "own" may be nothing but a mortgage/liability in terms of insurance need.
 
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