Hello everyone, looking to become a pilot!

Dana said:
Some random thoughts (bearing in mind that I am NOT a commercial pilot):

There's not much money in flight instruction, mainly because there are so many new pilots willing to instruct for peanuts to build time for an airline career.

The old line "to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large fortune" is firmly rooted in truth.

If you interest is in the smaller side of the aviation business, then a large flight school oriented toward training airline pilots is probably not your best choice. "Joe's flying school" or a freelance CFI might be a better choice.

You can be a Sport Pilot instructor without a commercial certificate. You can't do charters or sightseeing flights then, though.

I don't know if this is still the case, but you used to be able to get a commercial without an instrument rating. Such pilots were limited to, IIRC, 50 miles from home base, which rules out most charters, but allows things like sightseeing flights, crop dusting, etc.

Buying your own plane to learn in is often an excellent idea, and can save you a lot of money.


Start by getting your Private, then do a bunch of flying around your local area, soak up the scene and culture, then decide what direction you want to go.
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Thank you. I appreciate your input. My thing however is that if I invest into school or a plane I MUST make my living with it. The money I will have is for education and living expenses. If I spend say $40k on a plane and PPL and then don't make any money I have wasted my money at that point. I could go to school for computer programming, medical, a few things but none of it appeals to me. That's why I'm looking at flight.

If all goes to plan I'll have 6 figures that I can learn and live on until pay checks start rolling in. The thing is though, paychecks HAVE to start rolling in. As mentioned, I'm not looking to make a fortune just a livable income. I know with the majors I can make a lot more money but many things about that don't appeal to me. If I can clear $30k a year I'll be very happy and that would be good enough for me.
 
chiliphil1 said:
My zip code is 30204.

Barnesville, ga. Right in the middle of Atlanta and Macon.
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Used to date a girl from Barnesville. Know a few people who live in that area too. Should be a few airline guys/girls around. If you know any ask who they use for a physical. You want a "pilot friendly" AME. For your health problems just use your regular Doc. Also just get a 3rd Class for now. If you ever have a need for 2nd or 1st Class yu can go get that later.
 
mscard88 said:
Used to date a girl from Barnesville. Know a few people who live in that area too. Should be a few airline guys/girls around. If you know any ask who they use for a physical. You want a "pilot friendly" AME. For your health problems just use your regular Doc. Also just get a 3rd Class for now. If you ever have a need for 2nd or 1st Class yu can go get that later.
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Ok, thank you. Will do.
 
CFI isn't the only way to make money as a pilot. My CFI is a young guy with over 3,000 hours, and he still hasn't gone ATP. (Although he has been invited more than once.) He knows he will have to eventually, but for now, he prefers GA flying. Besides being a full-time CFI, he also does ferry-work, and flies twice a week for a skydiving outfit. Casting a wide net might make a big difference, and it might get you more experience prior to starting your flight school, which can only be a good thing. For example, during my Instrument training, I had to use a new guy. (My PPL CFI wasn't a CFII) A good kid, but he was straight out of the pilot-mill type of school, going from zero to 500hrs and all ratings in 6 months. I had nearly as many hours as he did. He did a decent job, but you could really tell the difference due to the lack of real-world experience.

Another reason to go for a smaller school is that it might lead to a teaching job. CFIs have a high turnover rate, and I would expect (although I have no real way of knowing) that a school would like to have at least one CFI who isn't planning on splitting as soon as they get an invite from a regional.

I'd definitely get the 152, regardless of whether or not you will use it in a flight school later. Cheap to own and operate, and if you end up earning a living doing something else, you still have the plane to feed your passion. (Makes that day job a lot more tolerable.)
 
chiliphil1 said:
Thank you. I appreciate your input. My thing however is that if I invest into school or a plane I MUST make my living with it. The money I will have is for education and living expenses. If I spend say $40k on a plane and PPL and then don't make any money I have wasted my money at that point.
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Fair enough. The thing to realize, though, is that older airplanes hold their value unless abused. If you bought, say, a 152 for $30K and spent another $3-4000 learning to fly it and flying around for awhile, you could resell the plane for what you paid for it if you don't want to proceed.
 
Rykymus said:
CFI isn't the only way to make money as a pilot. My CFI is a young guy with over 3,000 hours, and he still hasn't gone ATP. (Although he has been invited more than once.) He knows he will have to eventually, but for now, he prefers GA flying. Besides being a full-time CFI, he also does ferry-work, and flies twice a week for a skydiving outfit. Casting a wide net might make a big difference, and it might get you more experience prior to starting your flight school, which can only be a good thing. For example, during my Instrument training, I had to use a new guy. (My PPL CFI wasn't a CFII) A good kid, but he was straight out of the pilot-mill type of school, going from zero to 500hrs and all ratings in 6 months. I had nearly as many hours as he did. He did a decent job, but you could really tell the difference due to the lack of real-world experience.

Another reason to go for a smaller school is that it might lead to a teaching job. CFIs have a high turnover rate, and I would expect (although I have no real way of knowing) that a school would like to have at least one CFI who isn't planning on splitting as soon as they get an invite from a regional.

I'd definitely get the 152, regardless of whether or not you will use it in a flight school later. Cheap to own and operate, and if you end up earning a living doing something else, you still have the plane to feed your passion. (Makes that day job a lot more tolerable.)
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I like the way you think sir.

I'm open to just about any flying job, just don't want to do airlines. I went on vacation back in 2015 to Jekyll Island, Ga. There's a small air strip on Jekyll and a larger airport on St. Simon's island just across the inlet. I saw a plane go by with a phone number on the bottom for sight seeing. I happened to have the money, so I called and for $400 I got 30 minutes in an open air bi-plane flying over the beach and ocean. When I did that I said " THIS is the job I want" Now, I know that CFI and sightseeing are VERY different things but my point being that if I can get a flying gig whether it's part time CFI/part time tourguide/part time skydiving pilot doesn't really matter to me. The goal is flying, the end goal is my own aviation business. Whether that business be in training (preferred) or whatever doesn't really matter. I, much like most of you just feel a natural pull to flight, a calling, it's all I've ever wanted to do so as long as I am doing it I don't really care too much for the means. Just don't want the airline thing.

I do like the plan of owning a plane too. I would suppose that even if I'm not in it I could make money from it by renting it or something of the sort. However, that's a big one to jump into. Let me give a scenario. I buy the 152, I go to a small local school and get all licences and ratings, the school offers me a job as an instructor (most say that they will) Yet I own my own plane. So, at that point do I take the school job? Or do I pass it by and hope I can strike out on my own with my plane?

Would it be better to own the 152 and save plane rental fees during training therefore getting my CFI for less cost and then either A take the school job and have my own plane for my own use which I most likely wouldn't get to use too often because of cost, or maybe sell the plane after I complete training and have a job using someone else's aircraft?

So many options!
 
Dana said:
Fair enough. The thing to realize, though, is that older airplanes hold their value unless abused. If you bought, say, a 152 for $30K and spent another $3-4000 learning to fly it and flying around for awhile, you could resell the plane for what you paid for it if you don't want to proceed.
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See, that makes me feel better about it. These flight schools are talking about $50k all in. If I could spend less than that AND own the plane that would be a pretty sweet deal. See above though about how I would proceed if I owned the plane AND then was offered a job at the school, what do I do with the plane then? Sell it?

Honestly, this is quite a daunting thing which I expected it to be.
 
Oh geez, I completely forgot about the A&P guy! If he does want to go in on the plane I may have a 152 for like $15k on my end. Plus free maintenance and repairs (minus the cost of parts) That really changes the game.
 
Dana said:
Fair enough. The thing to realize, though, is that older airplanes hold their value unless abused. If you bought, say, a 152 for $30K and spent another $3-4000 learning to fly it and flying around for awhile, you could resell the plane for what you paid for it if you don't want to proceed.
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If you don't count taxes and other acquisition costs, annual + maintenance, the $5000 you'll need to add ADS-B out if you fly where you need it, and pray the engine doesn't lunch on your watch. Now this is true of any ownership experience, but if you plan to keep it a very short time the cost/hr and risk are higher.
 
Have you taken an intro flight yet? It's quite an investment to get your license so I suggest scheduling an intro flight if you haven't already to see if this is something you really want to pursue.
 
chiliphil1 said:
These flight schools are talking about $50k all in
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My tres centavos on this thread is regarding the money and the price quote.

DO NOT, repeat DO NOT give them all of the money up front. Recent history is littered with various schools who required the entire money up front suddenly going out of business, taking the entire bank account with them, and leaving the students out in the cold with empty wallets and a long legal battle to get any amount of it back. So if the school asks for a massive amount up front, that too is a big danger signal.

Also, we do not recommend doing debt for flight training, especially for the end result you are discussing. It's too easy to rack up the debt, and then get to a place where there is insufficient income to service the debt, let alone get rid of it.

What you can do if you have this $50,000 is park it into it's own account, labeled "Aviation Training". This way it is out of your main account an earmarked for training. Then as you need to pay for the training bill or supplies, or exam fees, you write a check from this account.

Last, there are some schools that will provide a discount (also known as a "block rate") if you maintain an account with them that has a modest balance. This permits them to bill your activities against that account immediately. Then when the account falls below a set amount (such as $500), they ask you to refill it back to the agreed upon amount. Often schools like this are properly run when it comes to the student's money, and are more than ready to refund any remaining balances once the student completes the desired training with them.


Someone in the Atlanta area to go have a conversation with is @N747JB. He could be a good resource for "who to go talk to for what" in your area.
 
AggieMike88 said:
My tres centavos on this thread is regarding the money and the price quote.

DO NOT, repeat DO NOT give them all of the money up front. Recent history is littered with various schools who required the entire money up front suddenly going out of business, taking the entire bank account with them, and leaving the students out in the cold with empty wallets and a long legal battle to get any amount of it back. So if the school asks for a massive amount up front, that too is a big danger signal.

Also, we do not recommend doing debt for flight training, especially for the end result you are discussing. It's too easy to rack up the debt, and then get to a place where there is insufficient income to service the debt, let alone get rid of it.

What you can do if you have this $50,000 is park it into it's own account, labeled "Aviation Training". This way it is out of your main account an earmarked for training. Then as you need to pay for the training bill or supplies, or exam fees, you write a check from this account.

Last, there are some schools that will provide a discount (also known as a "block rate") if you maintain an account with them that has a modest balance. This permits them to bill your activities against that account immediately. Then when the account falls below a set amount (such as $500), they ask you to refill it back to the agreed upon amount. Often schools like this are properly run when it comes to the student's money, and are more than ready to refund any remaining balances once the student completes the desired training with them.


Someone in the Atlanta area to go have a conversation with is @N747JB. He could be a good resource for "who to go talk to for what" in your area.
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Thank you for the input. I am not planning to finance any of the cost, it will all be cash. One of the schools does require the payment up front, they are the most expensive one also (about $25k more than the others) but they're the one that says you'll get tuition reimbursement and a job with a regional within 2 years. The other school which is the likely winner if I go that route has the account system you mentioned, I think the balance was $1,000 with them. I still need to make some phone calls and see what's what.

On the other side, I spoke with my A&P friend today and he said he would be up for a partnership with each of us covering half the cost of the air craft. He said he can do all maintenance, annuals, etc as he's certified and currently works for one of the majors. He said that should shave about %75 off the bottom line. He wants something like a 172 so he can fly with his family. I have a lot to think about, I'll start with calling the schools and then obtaining a class 3 medical.
 
One bonus part about ownership with your A&P friend is that you can scratch your mechanikin itch by learning from him about all you need to know about the aircraft you guys co-own. End result is you're a much more informed aircraft owner because you actively participated with it all. And you're correct that it will keep the ownership costs to a lower amount because you're not using outside help for this.


Something not yet mentioned as you consider the flight schools is to determine if you can find amongst their cadre an instructor who you get along with well and his teaching style meshes well with how you learn. It would be very frustrating to to sign up, give the school money, and you find out that you don't do well with any of their instructors. So before you hand them the big money, take an intro flight with one or more of their instructors to "audition" them.

Additional info about selecting a school can be found here: https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/choosing-a-flight-school
 
AggieMike88 said:
One bonus part about ownership with your A&P friend is that you can scratch your mechanikin itch by learning from him about all you need to know about the aircraft you guys co-own. End result is you're a much more informed aircraft owner because you actively participated with it all. And you're correct that it will keep the ownership costs to a lower amount because you're not using outside help for this.


Something not yet mentioned as you consider the flight schools is to determine if you can find amongst their cadre an instructor who you get along with well and his teaching style meshes well with how you learn. It would be very frustrating to to sign up, give the school money, and you find out that you don't do well with any of their instructors. So before you hand them the big money, take an intro flight with one or more of their instructors to "audition" them.

Additional info about selecting a school can be found here: https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/learn-to-fly/choosing-a-flight-school
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Thank you again. I'm going to do those intro flights, in fact I think the schools require them.. At least a couple of them. Should be cool, I'll get some good time in the air.I still need to call them and see which one may fit best. I'll get all of that done next week.
 
FYI; the intro flights are loggable time when you're with a CFI. And the good CFI should be providing some intro instruction in addition to the into flight experience.


And the price of all this advice is some photos of the event.
 
AggieMike88 said:
FYI; the intro flights are loggable time when you're with a CFI. And the good CFI should be providing some intro instruction in addition to the into flight experience.


And the price of all this advice is some photos of the event.
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Copy that! If they'll let me whip out the phone I'll have some photos. I was reading one of the school pages and it said something to the effect of "Your instructor will perform the take off, once in the air you will be in control of the plane! You'll maneuver and position for landing, and may possibly even land the plane" That's what they say anyway..

Again, I cannot thank all of you enough for the advice, I'm just about as green as they come and you have all been so accommodating. It's wonderful to see that the community which I've heard about really does exist. I'm hopefully only a couple of months away from getting this all started, just having to wait for my lawyer at this point.

I think someone above asked if I had taken an intro flight to see if I wanted to do this for sure, the answer is no but I have flown commercial a couple of times, private Leer jet a couple, and an open cockpit bi-plane. Every time I've been up the magic is just there for me, I love every minute of it, especially those times when you just feel like you're hanging there and could drop at any second. Also, the high powered take off in that Leer was incredible, we had to be at 30* or more (maybe not but it felt almost vertical) coming out of Dulles, the girl in the seat across from me was screaming, it was awesome, just pinned in the seat, look back out the window and the ground is straight down, it was life changing.. Of course I'll never experience that in a single engine trainer but that's ok. The magic of the bi-plane was just as special, even if not quite as "heart pounding"

Of course when I was on the flight from Dulles (it was a company jet for the company I was with at the time) one of the guys in there was a helicopter pilot and everytime the lady (who had never flown) felt a bump or we dropped a little she would kinda shriek, he would laugh his a** off because he knew what was happening. Anyway, maybe that's a little cruel but I was laughing at him laughing at her and it was just a great experience. That was 6 years ago now and I remember every detail.
 
If you have 85K to burn.. and need your ratings fast, then yes you should go to ATP.
If you want to learn how to fly planes, I recommend saving/using savings/pay as you go and going to your local (GOOD/cheap) flight school, but the catch is you need to find a GREAT flight instructor also.




good luck.
 
chiliphil1 said:
Thank you for the input. I am not planning to finance any of the cost, it will all be cash. One of the schools does require the payment up front, they are the most expensive one also (about $25k me than the others) but they're the one that says you'll get tuition reimbursement and a job with a regional within 2 years. .
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I know you said that you're not interested in the airlines, but there is no way they can guarantee you an airline job. Best they could do would be a guaranteed interview (with an agreement w/ an airline), but not a job. A regional here today may not be around in a few years too.
 
Also the regionals are hiring anyone with a pulse and ATP mins. You don't need a "bridge" program to help you get on with a commuter.
 
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