Helicopter

[Terry]

Hi All:

I was checking into helicopter instruction. I was quoted $299/hour wet and that included an instructor. Also $0.49 per gallon for fuel surcharge.

This is a 141 school. What does that mean to me?

Also, I thought I could get signed off in 10 hours since I am a licensed pilot.

I was told it would take me about the same amount of time it took me to get my pilot license. If I multiply $300 x 30 hours = $9,000!

I think this is way too much money.

Comments please.

Terry

 

[jpflys]

10 hours to learn to fly a Helo?????? I hope they don't do urine tests first !

 

[Terry]

10 hours to learn to fly a Helo?????? I hope they don't do urine tests first !

I don't think it is required. I hope not.

Are you jealous if I can do it in 10 hours? (just kidding)

I was thinking I saw 10 hours in the FAR/AIM to get signed off on a helicopter.

Terry

 

[gismo]

I don't think it is required. I hope not.

Are you jealous if I can do it in 10 hours? (just kidding)

I was thinking I saw 10 hours in the FAR/AIM to get signed off on a helicopter.

Terry

I believe the minimum time is 19 hrs to add RW to a PPL ASEL, but I also believe that most fixed wing pilots require a lot more time than that. Even 30 seems light. What you are bringing to the table is your knowledge of navigation, FARs (at least the ones that apply to both RW and FW), radio communications, and little else. So think if this as the time required to master the stick and rudder skills of flying an airplane, only this "airplane" is significantly unstable in all axes.

 

[poadeleted20]

I was checking into helicopter instruction. I was quoted $299/hour wet and that included an instructor. Also $0.49 per gallon for fuel surcharge.

Sounds typical.

This is a 141 school. What does that mean to me?

It means the school's curriculum, aircraft, facilities, instructors, and documentation have been checked by the FAA and found to meet the standards of Part 141, which are higher than those of Part 61. The FAA allows graduates of Part 141 pilot/CFI certificate/rating courses to meet reduced aeronautical experience requirements (e.g., 35 vice 40 hours for PPL). In addition, most state and federal financial aid programs (such as VA) require Part 141 certification if you're using those benefits for flight training.

Also, I thought I could get signed off in 10 hours since I am a licensed pilot.

Unlike additional class ratings (e.g., adding an MEL to a PP-ASEL ticket), for an additional category rating, you must meet all the aeronautical experience requirements for initial issue of a pilot certificate with that category rating. For an additional Rotorcraft-Helicopter rating on a PP-ASEL ticket, that means an absolute minimum of 19 hours of helicopter time (9 dual and 10 solo), although some FSDO's may tell you that you need 20 hours dual and 10 hours solo. Regardless, it is quite unlikely that you'd be sufficiently skillful to solo and pass the test with only 9 hours of helicopter instruction, so even if the legal min is really 9 hours, it wouldn't help you much. Also, the legal minimum flight time for a Part 141 additional helicopter rating course is 20 hours of dual and 5 hours of solo.

I was told it would take me about the same amount of time it took me to get my pilot license.

That would not be correct if they were talking legal mins. It might be correct if they are talking about the actual amount of training needed to become sufficiently proficient in a helicopter to pass the practical test.

If I multiply $300 x 30 hours = $9,000!

Not surprising.

I think this is way too much money.

Well, then, you might want to consider sticking to fixed wing flying, because it's not an out-of-the-ballpark figure to add a helicopter rating to your airplane-rated pilot certificate. Compared to airplanes, helicopters are both tricky and expensive to fly.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Check this place out... it's significantly less than the one you quoted, and there are several places where you can train...

http://www.helicopteracademy.com/training/PPL(H).htm

 

[RotaryWingBob]

The price seems a little high. I think the local guy here is charging around $250 for an R22 and CFI.

The others are correct in the 19 hour minimum to meet the aeronautical experience part.

Most folks can't even hover at 10 hours (and almost nobody can hover well enough to meet the PTS).

Figure 30-40 hours unless you turn out to be exceptional.

 

[gismo]

Are you jealous if I can do it in 10 hours? (just kidding)

I wouldn't be jealous, but I'd sure be impressed!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Figure 30-40 hours unless you turn out to be exceptional.

Does that count time in one of these?

 

[jason]

Does that count time in one of these?

LOL.

Kent logged his first .2 rotor time on one of those at Gaston's.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Hi All:

I was checking into helicopter instruction. I was quoted $299/hour wet and that included an instructor. Also $0.49 per gallon for fuel surcharge.

This is a 141 school. What does that mean to me?

Also, I thought I could get signed off in 10 hours since I am a licensed pilot.

I was told it would take me about the same amount of time it took me to get my pilot license. If I multiply $300 x 30 hours = $9,000!

I think this is way too much money.

Comments please.

Terry

It's even more expensive in some places ...that's just the cost of FAA certicied commercial, powered friction.

If you're definately exceptional, the main thing you should then do is get a CFI to commit to signing you off in each stage just as soon as you reach and demonstrate repeatable PTS for the helo tasks, BEFORE you start training. If you wait until AFTER you're in training, the combination of both overt and subliminal CFI's ego added to economic factors will make your goal very difficult to attain, no matter how well you're flying.

 

[mikea]

Does that count time in one of these?

If you can find a full scale version with those counter-rotating rotors.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

LOL.

Kent logged his first .2 rotor time on one of those at Gaston's.

LOL. Trimming trees counts?! Just kidding you, Kent... you did very well. I did get nervous, though, as you kept walking east and got near those trees! I'm sure Jason wasn't nervous though... he wasn't even trying to reach for the controls, were you Jason?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

There's plenty of them. The Kamov helos, for example. Sikorsky tried it as well, I think, but went (wisely, I think to a tail rotor).

 

[gismo]

Does that count time in one of these?

Do you really think you'd fit?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm sure Jason wasn't nervous though... he wasn't even trying to reach for the controls, were you Jason?

Heh... He couldn't reach 'em, I was running away (towards the helo) 'cuz it was blowing away and had started to get the twitch that RC's get when they're running out of radio range.

 

[gprellwitz]

The prices that my flight school is estimating are here: http://aandmaviation.com/chopper.html

For a private helicopter add-on, 20 hrs dual, 10 hrs solo, plus ground for about $7500. Plus a variety of add-ons (books, knowledge exam, DE, etc.) estimated at the bottom of the page. R-22 is $250/hr wet including instructor. R-44 is, I think, $440/hr wet including instructor. It is NOT a part 141 school.

So the original example seems pretty typical, and not out of line.

 

[Terry]

Thanks All!

I probably will go after my commercial.

Terry

 

[RogerT]

Ten hours for a signoff? Wow .. that would be quite an accomplishment. A
helicopter is way different to fly. When I did my commercial add-on I soloed at 9 or 10 hours and I think the 141 course was around 35 or something like that. I then did my initial CFI rating in a helicopter and I think I had around
60 or 65 hrs at that point when I took the CFI ride.

I will have to say that of all the flying stuff I've done .. learning the
helicopter was the most fun. It was challenging but an absolute riot.

RT

Hi All:

I was checking into helicopter instruction. I was quoted $299/hour wet and that included an instructor. Also $0.49 per gallon for fuel surcharge.

This is a 141 school. What does that mean to me?

Also, I thought I could get signed off in 10 hours since I am a licensed pilot.

I was told it would take me about the same amount of time it took me to get my pilot license. If I multiply $300 x 30 hours = $9,000!

I think this is way too much money.

Comments please.

Terry

 

[drizzt76]

I'm doing what Terry wants to do backwards. I'm a comm. inst. rotor and out of Army flight school and I want to fly fixed wing to go on trips. I have to do all the tasks as a private pilot like the three hours dual of x country, hood, and night etc. I wish after I soloed 10 hours or so I could take the test but in retrospect you still learn how to do things diffrently over time. I may have passed the test but now I'm getting to the point when I take the PP SEL test I will not just "pass" the test. As far at trying to get sign of in 10 hours...even if your Chuck Yager getting your transition I wouldn't sign you off. In a heli the pedals aren't just foot rest. It would take everything in the PP guidelines to become proficient.

 

[tonycondon]

Scott,

Welcome! Its great to see another Iowan here. I fly out of Green Castle , IA24, between Cedar Rapids and Iowa City. Ive never transitioned a helicopter pilot to fixed wing but I can see that it could be interesting. all that forward speed on landing is fairly distracting from what i hear.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Scott,

Welcome! Its great to see another Iowan here. I fly out of Green Castle , IA24, between Cedar Rapids and Iowa City. Ive never transitioned a helicopter pilot to fixed wing but I can see that it could be interesting. all that forward speed on landing is fairly distracting from what i hear.

Funny you should mention that, Tony. I bumped into a friend at the FBO yesterday who brought the Channel 3 AStar in for some avionics work. He's a helicopter DPE and CFII, and we use him for some of our recurrency training.

We were talking about our mutual love of flying helicopters, and he mentioned that he had transitioned a large number of fixed-wing pilots to rotorcraft, but had only, in the course of a pretty long career, ever seen one flingwinger transition to fixed!

I imagine that there's not only the speed thing that you mentioned, but also the sight picture. If I'm using a runway, I reference only the spot where I want to come to a hover, and basically ignore the rest of the runway (except for watching for incursions, of course). It doesn't matter if my target is a runway intersection, a helipad, a patch of ground, or anything else, I use essentially the same sight picture for all.

You also have to unlearn the concept that feet are for power changes and pedal turns, and start using them for coordinated turns in flight.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Terry:

When I went to Army Rotary Wing Flight School, one had to hover in 6 hours or get washed out. That was just to hover; some did wash out. Do you already have some rotary time? If not, ten hours may be what it will take to hover well (rather than just pass). From there, there's a lot more to learn. I'd be amazed if you could do much more than perform the basics in a helo in ten hours. Have you looked through the PTS?

I got my rotary wing commercial instrument in military flight school and my civil commercial SE and instrument on my own time while in flight school (during a break and at night). My fixed wing certifications took about forty to fifty total hours. I didn't try to do it in the shortest possible time; I was more oriented toward proficiency since I was going to take some trips with family.

Best,

Dave

 

[Anthony]

You also have to unlearn the concept that feet are for power changes and pedal turns, and start using them for coordinated turns in flight.

Bob. You mean going from Rotary to Fixed, correct? How do you change power with your feet in a helo? Pedal turns = rotating around your axis? I'd love to learn to fly a helo!

 

[tonycondon]

anthony -

the short story is: any time you change power in a helo, torque changes, so you have to move your feet to counteract that.

oh and btw: at work i deal with a lot of helo pilots, and i have to make an effort not to call them rudder pedals!

 

[RotaryWingBob]

anthony -

the short story is: any time you change power in a helo, torque changes, so you have to move your feet to counteract that.

oh and btw: at work i deal with a lot of helo pilots, and i have to make an effort not to call them rudder pedals!

Old habits die hard, Tony. When I did the checkride for my helicopter add-on, I made a right turn onto downwind. The DE started laughing and said "You think you're in an airplane?". I realized that I had used the pedals like they were rudder pedals...

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Bob. You mean going from Rotary to Fixed, correct? How do you change power with your feet in a helo? Pedal turns = rotating around your axis? I'd love to learn to fly a helo!

Correct, Anthony. In most helicopters (the exceptions are tandem rotor, coaxial rotor, and ships like the Blackhawk which have fancy hydraulic mixers), every time you move the collective up or down you are changing the torque going into the rotor system which has to be compensated for with pedal, because you're changing main rotor pitch. For U.S. helicopters, raising collective means you need more left pedal, lowering it means right pedal (or less left pedal, depending how you look at it). So you're not changing the power with your feet, but you are compensating for the power change with your feet. That make any sense?

 

[tonycondon]

Old habits die hard, Tony. When I did the checkride for my helicopter add-on, I made a right turn onto downwind. The DE started laughing and said "You think you're in an airplane?". I realized that I had used the pedals like they were rudder pedals...

hmmm...enlighten me Bob. seems to me that in order to make a coordinated turn some inside anti-torque (had to erase rudder..jeesh) pedal would be necessary.

btw some of your descriptions of the physics of helicopter flight in the past have been excellent! they have really helped me understand what is going on.

Had a great convo with my manger yesterday about loss of tail rotor effectiveness in Kiowas at certain speed/wind/densitay altitude combinations. He flies in the National Guard.

Guy next to me just got out of the Army as an IP and Instrument Flight Examiner in Kiowas as well. We had a great chat about autrotations in NOTAR helos.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Generally, Tony, helicopters don't exhibit adverse yaw. Push the stick left and the ship immediately banks left side down and begins to turn. Having said that, if the turn is really steep, then the pilot may have to raise the collective to get more lift. In response to that, left pedal will be required -- it doesn't matter if it's a left or right turn, you'll need left pedal.

Alas, loss of tail rotor effectiveness (LTE) is the bane most helicopters. Fenestron and NOTAR systems (guys I know who fly NOTARs really seem to love 'em) are generally considered to provide more efficient thrust. I can't vouch for that having never flown either. In U.S. helicopters (main rotor going counterclockwise viewed from above), you are vulnerable to LTE any time the wind is coming from the left. The main causes are things like a weathervaning tendency, that fact that a left wind essentially acts like a tail wind to the tail rotor, and the possibility that the tail rotor could actally enter a vortex ring state where it starts recycling its own thrust. If it gets bad enough, you may have to let the ship spin into the wind and then get control back as you near that point.

Now you know why we like to take an out-of-pattern approach so we can land into the wind

 

[Anthony]

So you're not changing the power with your feet, but you are compensating for the power change with your feet. That make any sense?

Yes it does! I didn't realize you needed to do that. Thanks!

 

[tonycondon]

ok.

when you bank, the rotor operates at a higher angle of attack on one side than the other, right? or does the mast just tilt? i thought it was the first, which made me think there would be adverse yaw, but i suppose it is small.

the LTE that we were talking about was caused by the "wingtip" vortices coming off the rotor. i guess at a hover the wake comes of the aft edge of the rotor disc and as speed increases the vortices move towards the tips. at certain speed ranges and wind conditions the vortice of the left side of the rotor would interfere with the tailrotor and all hell would break loose. the main cause seemed to be rooted in some decision to have the tail rotor mounted relatively low on the boom. most helos seem to have the tail rotor at least in the plane of the rotor or higher. the 58 has the tailrotor below the plane of the main rotor so it is subject to the wake of the disc.

i can visualize what essentially is settling with power of the tail rotor in a left crosswind.

am I ready for the written?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

the LTE that we were talking about was caused by the "wingtip" vortices coming off the rotor. i guess at a hover the wake comes of the aft edge of the rotor disc and as speed increases the vortices move towards the tips. at certain speed ranges and wind conditions the vortice of the left side of the rotor would interfere with the tailrotor and all hell would break loose. the main cause seemed to be rooted in some decision to have the tail rotor mounted relatively low on the boom. most helos seem to have the tail rotor at least in the plane of the rotor or higher. the 58 has the tailrotor below the plane of the main rotor so it is subject to the wake of the disc.

i can visualize what essentially is settling with power of the tail rotor in a left crosswind.

am I ready for the written?

I knew there was something I forgot to mention. You're right right about the effects of rotor tip vortices coming off of the main rotor -- that's part of the LTE equation as well.

The term settling with power is used almost universally by pilots, but the real name for it is vortex ring state (VRS). It's easier to visually in the case of the main rotor. You have the downwash getting sucked back into the rotor system. The same thing can happen to a tail rotor with a left crosswind in combination with a pedal turn, for example. In the main rotor case, the descent becomes very rapid, and no helicopter has enough power to stop it. The recovery requires lowering collective and pushing the cyclic forward to allow airspeed to build past effective translation lift (ETL), and then using collective to slow the descent -- it's a little like a stall/spin in an airplane -- you're going to lose altitude in the recovery (and go splat because you don't have much to spare ). In the case of TR VRS, the problem generally will self correct as you start to get into the wind.

Go for the written, you're ready pal!

 

[tonycondon]

just gotta find someone to sign me off. but if i had the written done then id be thinking about taking lessons and then id really be broke.

i got a buddy who is about ready to solo an R22 and plans to go through his commercial and CFI-H. I plan to get a ride.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think the bottom line is that maybe you're one of those folks who can jump up and stand on a beach ball while juggling three oranges. In that case, a FW-helo transition might be accomplished in the absolute minimum legal Part 61 time (19 hours, I believe). For the rest of us, it will probably take longer -- a lot longer.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

I think the bottom line is that maybe you're one of those folks who can jump up and stand on a beach ball while juggling three oranges. In that case, a FW-helo transition might be accomplished in the absolute minimum legal Part 61 time (19 hours, I believe). For the rest of us, it will probably take longer -- a lot longer.

I still can't juggle the oranges on the beach ball Ron. But your point is well taken. It takes most folks (including me, but then I did a bunch more solo than I had to because I was having fun!), lots more time time than the statutory 19 hours to do the transition.

 

[tonycondon]

i can barely juggle one orange

 

[drizzt76]

Thanks for the welcome Tony. I've visited Green Castle many moons ago before I started to fly. My instructor at Kirkwood brought us through for a visit.

I didn't know I was such an odd duck the way I'm going through my "flight progression". I'm a member of the Keycity Flyers club @ DBQ and of course and people do find it funny a Hawk driver is flying a C152 around and likes it. Everyone talks about the sight picture diffrence and the pedal thing and that wasn't hard to adapt to at all. What ate my lunch was the varying control you have in a plane as your landing the slight lag you experience when you drift off the center line. The C152 just floats down the runway wanting to fly again...in a heli you can have more control of your thrust, your "rudder" can do anything you want it to at any speed, and you have much more control of you lift.

 

[gismo]

when you bank, the rotor operates at a higher angle of attack on one side than the other, right? or does the mast just tilt? i thought it was the first, which made me think there would be adverse yaw, but i suppose it is small.

Given that I have a whopping 2 hrs of rotor wing time (the first being something like 20 years ago, and the second, more productive one given by the late but talented John Lancaster) I could be a "little off" but here's my thinking on adverse yaw in helicopters (I do have 10-15 hrs of RC helicopter time but most of that's 20 years old too):

I suspect the reason you don't get "adverse yaw" is that the extra drag of the rising side of the rotor disk would simply appear as a torque on the main mast and the decrease in drag on the down going side would compensate for most of that and in any case the extra "rotary drag" aka torque would always require left pedal regardless of which way you turned.

am I ready for the written?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Given that I have a whopping 2 hrs of rotor wing time (the first being something like 20 years ago, and the second, more productive one given by the late but talented John Lancaster) I could be a "little off" but here's my thinking on adverse yaw in helicopters (I do have 10-15 hrs of RC helicopter time but most of that's 20 years old too):

I suspect the reason you don't get "adverse yaw" is that the extra drag of the rising side of the rotor disk would simply appear as a torque on the main mast and the decrease in drag on the down going side would compensate for most of that and in any case the extra "rotary drag" aka torque would always require left pedal regardless of which way you turned.

This may sound stupid, but I have no clue why there is no adverse yaw. Your explanation seems to make sense.

I don't think I've ever seen the term adverse yaw even mentioned in any book on helicopter flight or aerodynamics.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I stopped by Epic Helicopters at Fort Worth Meacham yesterday. They seem to have a first-class operation.

Cost for a Private Helicopter Add-On rating to an existing PP-ASEL is $260/hr of 20 hours dual, $220/hr of 10 hours solo, 20 hours of ground at $40. Plus books and DE fees. Figure $8500 based on FAA minimums. They say that it will likely require an average of 10 hours more dual if you have no prior helicopter experince (+$2600), which puts the course at about $11K.

They use R22's and R44's. I asked about what their rental policy was after getting the rating, this was their email reply:

After your initial private license, we allow aircraft rental if working toward another rating. This can be done solo without an instructor.

This is the problem I see with most helicopter rating courses... unless you plan to own your own copter, maintaining currency and building proficiency afterwards can be nigh on impossible, as most facilities won't rent one to you (even the places doing the training).


Another school at Addison that I'd looked at before used Schweizers, and those looked like nicer machines to me, but what do I know?