Have you experienced an unintentional stall/spin before?

[rbridges]

Happened to me while practicing a departure stall with my instructor while working on my Private.

I thought we were pointed straight down - a very different view of the world

Sure made me want to learn how to get out of them in case it ever happened again

I entered a 1/2-3/4 turn spin during my last BFR. We were practicing stalls then the right wing broke, and then the plane spun left. Great view of the ground. lol

 

[Clip4]

The DPE who did my checkride made it clear beforehand, ‘if you spin me, it’s over.’ Even a stall gone awry followed by proper spin recovery would be an automatic fail.

Spin a multi engine aircraft on a check ride and you both fail permantly.

 

[lancie00]

Never had spin training (they're not allowed in our Arrow). But I've never unintentionally stalled either. I always heard that was the quickest way to die was to stall/spin unintentionally close to the ground. I just always keep my speed up.

*Edit - I accidentally said I never had stall training when I meant to say I never had SPIN training*

 

[jordane93]

I was teaching stalls to a student and he kept not using his feet. We did a power on stall and he was uncoordinated and I let it go into a spin. He started using his feet after that.

 

[falconkidding]

You can certainly spin 172. I’ve practiced it on purpose.

I can get 1 k model to do a rotation but then it goes to steep spiral. The ones with the newer wings just do like half rotation then steep spiral time. Ive tried entering from pwr on, off, half pwr.
152s i can spin easily same for diamonds. Just cant keep 172s from developing into steep spirals.

 

[Stan Cooper]

Nope.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Never had stall training (they're not allowed in our Arrow). But I've never unintentionally stalled either. I always heard that was the quickest way to die was to stall/spin unintentionally close to the ground. I just always keep my speed up.

Huh? That's a little scary (and contrary to the FAR). Some local FBO or club rule? It's certainly not a limitation I've seen in any Arrow I've stalled. I guess you've never seen that you can stall an airplane when you keep your speed up either.

 

[painless]

No, but...... During transition training into my RV6A, instructor asked me how guys are killing themselves in RVs. I said a big one was stall/spin turning base to final....coffin corner.

So he proceeds to demonstrate one. Then he has me do one. I was impressed with how hard I was kicking the rudder. Then WHAM. We’re on our back. I mean like RIGHT NOW! Released all control input, got us upright fairly quickly and flying again. Actually got a “nice recovery” outta the CFI. I just let the airplane start flying again is all I felt I did. Sure was an eye opener. I have a Lift Reserve Indicator (no flames please!) and I watch that sucker pretty close turning final....

 

[Volitation]

Had a 172 enter the incipient phase of a spin while practicing stalls with a student. He unintentionally yawed the airplane at exactly the wrong moment. I in my cool and calm instructor voice "...I have the airplane."

I did the same thing to myself in my 3rd solo flight. Actually was a great learning experience and confidence builder on what NOT to do getting in, and what to TO do to get out.

 

[danhagan]

The DPE who did my checkride made it clear beforehand, ‘if you spin me, it’s over.’ Even a stall gone awry followed by proper spin recovery would be an automatic fail.

My DPE was John Wayne ... we had a cool morning and a fairly new Sparrowhawk 152 and on the first power on stall it felt like we were looking straight up and barely getting a mush. He said to "reset, keep max power and bank 20 degrees" ... a slight pause, then "and if we spin you don't fail unless *I* have to correct it". We didn't spin, but back then my CFI had us perform all power on stalls straight ahead without bank, so that was my first. Took some acro lessons in a Pitts later on which was a blast.

 

[Scholt78]

I had a student put us in a secondary stall unintentionally, but other than that no.

 

[lancie00]

Huh? That's a little scary (and contrary to the FAR). Some local FBO or club rule? It's certainly not a limitation I've seen in any Arrow I've stalled. I guess you've never seen that you can stall an airplane when you keep your speed up either.

My mistake which I've corrected. I accidentally said I've never had 'stall training'. I meant to say I've never had SPIN training.

 

[Morgan3820]

An instructor let me unintentionally stall/spin a 150 my 2nd time up. I didn't know wtf I was doing or what happened as a 1 hour pilot, and scared myself so badly I quit flying for awhile as a result of it.

I wonder how many possible pilots we've lost over the years by hot shot instructors thinking they're having fun.

True. But I wonder how many possible pilots we lost because nobody showed them how to exit an inadverdant spin. I remember vividly three weeks before I had my experience, some other student Spun in because he had not been taught how to exit a spin as I had. If and when my daughter decides to get her ppl, I will find somebody with an aerobatic plane to teach her how to do a spin.

 

[midlifeflyer]

My mistake which I've corrected. I accidentally said I've never had 'stall training'. I meant to say I've never had SPIN training.

Oh, that's very different.

 

[wanttaja]

True. But I wonder how many possible pilots we lost because nobody showed them how to exit an inadverdant spin.

The thing to do is compare the stall/spin rates of the US (which does not require spin familiarization) and Canada (which does).

My understanding is that the rates are almost identical.

The problem is not that US pilots don't know how to get out of spins. The problem is that both US and Canadian pilots are getting into spins too low for recovery. My own case is a classic example; it happened at ~2,000 AGL, but it was a maneuver I had been doing in the traffic pattern. You'll find few cases of planes spinning down from altitude. So the FAA emphasizes stall recognition and recovery, instead. Avoid the stall, avoid the spin.

Yes, there are some cases where the Canadian pilots' training have allowed faster recovery from spins. It's supposedly offset by a higher rate of accidents during spin *training*. This was part of the justification when the FAA eliminated spin training from the Private syllabus.

Ron Wanttaja

 

[N3368K]

I accidentally snap rolled a Pitts S-1S one day. Does that count since it is a horizontal spin?

It was my second flight in a Pitts and I unintentionally stomped full left rudder as I threw full left aileron trying to see just how fast it would roll. I couldn't seem to disconnect the aileron/rudder connection in my brain. I rolled about 90 degrees before it snapped...in hindsight, I realized I threw the aileron/rudder before I neutralized the up elevator. Oops. It did make me stop and think it through before trying it again. Fortunately, a Pitts will stop spinning just be taking pro-spin input out. I did make sure I had plenty of altitude before doing any stupid pilot tricks.

I also screwed up a hammerhead in my Swift (years before the Pitts flight) and managed to fall off into a spin, but fortunately realized my mistake immediately and initiated recovery before it started to wrap up. That one did scare me a bit since Swifts have poor spin recovery characteristics and were placarded against intentional spins. Glad mine was unintentional.

 

[Todd82]

True. But I wonder how many possible pilots we lost because nobody showed them how to exit an inadverdant spin. I remember vividly three weeks before I had my experience, some other student Spun in because he had not been taught how to exit a spin as I had. If and when my daughter decides to get her ppl, I will find somebody with an aerobatic plane to teach her how to do a spin.

I'm not saying there's not a time and place for it. But letting a guy with 1 hour and change stumble into it, and not warning him ahead of time what was happening, isn't the time and place for it. CFI's doing that have probably driven quite a few away over the years. Almost drove me away.

 

[GRG55]

Unintentional stall-spin would likely be fatal. Unintentional spin after an intentional stall is very different.

Bingo.

That's what happened to me on my very first flight in a small GA plane in 1974. One of those $20 Cessna introductory flights. Instructor demonstrated a power off stall and then asked me if I wanted to try it. Sure! One wing dropped (nothing was said about using rudder to keep them level) and I instinctively reacted with full opposite aileron. Hooo boy. Did two more fully developed spins (deliberately) during that flight, and I was hooked. The flight school took all my money the rest of that summer.

 

[GRG55]

The DPE who did my checkride made it clear beforehand, ‘if you spin me, it’s over.’ Even a stall gone awry followed by proper spin recovery would be an automatic fail.

Were you flying an airplane approved for spins?

 

[RyanB]

Were you flying an airplane approved for spins?

Yup. 152.

 

[GRG55]

Yup. 152.

Sounds like you had a DPE frightened of spins.

I don't think you can in a 172 or pa28. You can yank the yokes all the way back put in full rudder and they just kinda mush down...

You certainly can spin a 172. We use them for that. Identification and recovery from a fully developed spin is mandatory in our FTU training syllabus.

 

[falconkidding]

Sounds like you had a DPE frightened of spins.



You certainly can spin a 172. We use them for that. Identification and recovery from a fully developed spin is mandatory in our FTU training syllabus.

Whats the technique. Even holding full aft and full rudder after one rotation it just turns into steep spiral whenever i do them.

 

[RyanB]

Sounds like you had a DPE frightened of spins.

He wasn’t frightened, he just took the stance that if you’re not capable of performing a stall recovery without spinning the aircraft, than you need to have some remedial training. It seemed fair to me.

You certainly can spin a 172. We use them for that. Identification and recovery from a fully developed spin is mandatory in our FTU training syllabus.

For the record, Brian (Falconkidding) and I were out flying an aerobat in the practice area doing my BFR and we tried to stall the airplane on a few different occasions and it never wanted to break. It took some ingenuity to finally get it to snap. It’s a remarkably docile aircraft. Will it spin? Sure, but it’s very difficult.

 

[GRG55]

He wasn’t frightened, he just took the stance that if you’re not capable of performing a stall recovery without spinning the aircraft, than you need to have some remedial training. It seemed fair to me.

For the record, Brian (Falconkidding) and I were out flying an aerobat in the practice area doing my BFR and we tried to stall the airplane on a few different occasions and it never wanted to break. It took some ingenuity to finally get it to snap. It’s a remarkably docile aircraft. Will it spin? Sure, but it’s very difficult.

The plane won't spin during the "stall recovery". But I see his point.

A 150 Aerobat? I would think an Aerobat should have excellent ability to spin and recover.

I've never flown a 150 Aerobat, but I never had any difficulty spinning the plain vanilla 150s I trained in. I've done hundreds of spins in 150s, 152s, 172s and Tomahawks. The 150 is by far my favorite. Just as you feel it's about to stall immediately kick the rudder hard over to initiate the spin. If you let the nose start to drop the wing is already coming out of the stall and it's too late.

After I soloed I used to take the 150 out and spend the whole hour doing spins, struggling for altitude in the summer heat so I could do it again. My instructor got ****ed at me at one point as I wasn't doing the numbered exercises from the Cessna training manual as he assigned. These were late 1960s vintage 150s, so I wonder if later versions had more limited elevator or something? To make them "safer" and less prone to spin?

 

[PilotRPI]

During an acro lesson in a citabria. Was inverted at the too of a loop. Not enough power and speed and went into a spin inverted. Recovered and went on my way. Was pretty cool, except that at that point I was already trying to not throw up and wanted to do one more loop to close out thevflight. Somehow managed not to lose my cookies.

 

[GRG55]

Whats the technique. Even holding full aft and full rudder after one rotation it just turns into steep spiral whenever i do them.

I'll ask one of the instructors and post their answer.

 

[FlySince9]

I just always keep my speed up

AOA and coordinated flight, not speed, is what keeps you safe...

 

[FlySince9]

These were late 1960s vintage 150s, so I wonder if later versions had more limited elevator or something? To make them "safer" and less prone to spin?

I trained in a 198x C-152. It would spin easily but you had to hold the yoke in your chest and rudder to the floor. You let up at all on either and it came out of it. IIRCC...

 

[GRG55]

I trained in a 198x C-152. It would spin easily but you had to hold the yoke in your chest and rudder to the floor. You let up at all on either and it came out of it. IIRCC...

That's my recollection too.
If you just let go of everything it'll recover on its own. Eventually.

 

[wanttaja]

If you just let go of everything it'll recover on its own. Eventually.

But that's the fortunate byproduct of spin training: Learning to let go. Without spin experience, a pilot tends to freeze. The houses are getting bigger, so they hold the stick back all the way. It worked every other time.....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[asicer]

Whats the technique. Even holding full aft and full rudder after one rotation it just turns into steep spiral whenever i do them.

Aft CG?

 

[Clip4]

The thing to do is compare the stall/spin rates of the US (which does not require spin familiarization) and Canada (which does).

My understanding is that the rates are almost identical.

The problem is not that US pilots don't know how to get out of spins. The problem is that both US and Canadian pilots are getting into spins too low for recovery. My own case is a classic example; it happened at ~2,000 AGL, but it was a maneuver I had been doing in the traffic pattern. You'll find few cases of planes spinning down from altitude. So the FAA emphasizes stall recognition and recovery, instead. Avoid the stall, avoid the spin.

Yes, there are some cases where the Canadian pilots' training have allowed faster recovery from spins. It's supposedly offset by a higher rate of accidents during spin *training*. This was part of the justification when the FAA eliminated spin training from the Private syllabus.

Ron Wanttaja

According to ASF, 40% of all spin accidents are associated with engine failure. We can cut these loss of control accidents by training emergency procedures.

 

[midwestpa24]

According to ASF, 40% of all spin accidents are associated with engine failure. We can cut these loss of control accidents by training emergency procedures.

I would assume that is from pilots trying to stretch the glide and/or avoiding obstacles at low altitude and low speed.

 

[1RTK1]

Never spun unintentionally

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Nope.

me neither.....

 

[Sundancer]

Walter Mitty air combat simulation in CA, in a SF-260; I was going straight up, more or less, and the other guy was crossing above, left to right. I knew I was running out of energy, but tried to track him by puttng in a bunch of right rudder. Oops. . .

Such a sweet airplane, I relaxed the back pressure as the rotation began, and it stopped immediatley. . .If I win the lottery, I'm buying one.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I trained in a 198x C-152. It would spin easily but you had to hold the yoke in your chest and rudder to the floor. You let up at all on either and it came out of it. IIRCC...

Yup. That's one of the reason we followed up my CFI spin training in a 152 with another flight in a Citabria.

 

[RoscoeT]

During an acro lesson in a citabria. Was inverted at the too of a loop. Not enough power and speed and went into a spin inverted. Recovered and went on my way.

Just for the non-acro folks - falling out of a loop is NOT an easy way to get into a spin. Getting into a spin takes a whole lot of elevator AND rudder deflection regardless what attitude you're in, or what maneuver you're doing at the time. At the top of a loop, you're holding a slight amount of right rudder and slight aft stick. If you get too slow, the plane just flops its nose toward the ground without any drama. Even if you pull the stick fully aft in an effort to get the nose down before it flops down, you still won't spin - it still takes a whole lot of rudder. And if you did spin, it would be an upright spin, not an inverted spin unless you pushed the stick fully forward before spinning. You said this was during a lesson. Newbies can be very creative at screwing up the basics. That's why it's called a lesson. Good training.

 

[RyanB]

These were late 1960s vintage 150s, so I wonder if later versions had more limited elevator or something? To make them "safer" and less prone to spin?

Dunno, but I will tell you this...

A few weeks ago I went out for a simple low n’ slow joyride. It was nice, smooth air so I decided to go out to the practice area and do a few maneuvers. Climbed up to 3,500’ and set up for some stalls. I did as usual, full aft on the yoke got a slight buffet but virtually no break at all. Instead of releasing the yoke to recover, I kept holding it full aft in the stall, which felt like I was levitating there in mid air. Almost like I was on a teeter-totter in a stall. So it just goes to show you how docile these Aerobats really are. They’re very hard to intentionally stall, much less unintentionally.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Sounds like you had a DPE frightened of spins.



You certainly can spin a 172. We use them for that. Identification and recovery from a fully developed spin is mandatory in our FTU training syllabus.

Since a spin is not required, but a stall is required, a spin would certainly be disqualifying. Unless your DPE is really cool, as mine was, and essentially asked for it.