Have you ever "Busted Bravo"?

[SteveinIndy]

I'm sure you can request it, but it's not long enough for a lot of airplanes.

Well, it would certainly be long enough for a Cessna 172 or Piper which is about as fancy as I will likely ever get to fly.

Absolutely. I've probably done it at least 5 times, in a jet.

I'm jealous.

Not a dumb question at all.

Thank you for the quick answer.

 

[ScottM]

I'm sure you can request it, but it's not long enough for a lot of airplanes.

Absolutely. I've probably done it at least 5 times, in a jet.

Edit: Oh, you mean operation on the crosswind runway... I don't know about that. I though you were asking if they actually used this procedure.

Not a dumb question at all.

Have you gotten an approved deviation from that departure when runway 14L or R was in use for landings?

 

[Everskyward]

Have you gotten an approved deviation from that departure when runway 14L or R was in use for landings?

I have never asked for one because we were able to stay within the limits of the procedure.

 

[SteveinIndy]

I have never asked for one because we were able to stay within the limits of the procedure.

For arrivals there, do they prefer GA aircraft to come up over the lake and then turn in or is it better to come up west of the city? I assume this would depend on which way the traffic at KMDW and KORD is being funneled....

 

[John Baker]

If it wasn't originally certificated with an electrical system, and one hasn't been added, it would be legal within the veil and below the ceiling of the class Bravo as long as it didn't actually enter the class B. See 91.215(b)(3).

Thanks Jay, I'm still new at this, my learning continues....

John

 

[AuntPeggy]

I just keep thinking you might get a few more, "Ah, yes..." replies if you had posted this question in the Lessons Learned forum which allows anonymous posters. People who violate the rules, even inadvertently, may not want to admit to such on a public forum with their names firmly attached.

 

[Richard]

(I just slammed it under 2500 real quick to steer clear -- a bad situation, really)

I wouldn't harm my plane or do anything wild to avoid class B

Two statements, pick one.

I once was accused of busting an alt restriction which put me into Bravo. First of all, I wasn't given a restriction, 2nd, I was cleared into Bravo. The controller I was handed to evidently thought I was someone else. Nothing came of it.

I was with SoCal just SW of KEMT, heading W.

 

[stingray]

(Just to be safe) I know someone who did early on in his flying maybe second or third long CC. He thought he was looking at the mode C ring on the GPS but it was Class B. He had been calling approach for 5 min or so and was just waiting for a response. When it came and they gave him his code they said you are in Class B, turn right to XX do you see that jet, (yes) turn right xx do you see that jet (yes) turn right xx (do you see that jet (yes). would you like to hit one of them (no). Turn right xxx next time get authorization before entering. The pilot was very apologetic and learned a very good lesson early on. Controller was actually very nice about it.

Dan

 

[Shipoke]

I'm flying out to G05 Saturday and i am hoping that i don't .
G05 is under the shelf and i think shouldn't be a problem. But i will have FF and be talking to Pittsburgh anyway. I'll let you know how it goes.
Dave G

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Yes, several times. I posted about this sometime ago. I'm at a Class D airport under the Class B veil. If landing to the north, the downwind could take us into the class B. On several occasions, I had a tower controller tell me to extend my downwind and he would tell me when to turn. The frequency was congested. He directed me and others into the B seveal times. We brought it to the tower chief's attention several times. He tried to work something out with D/FW approach, but they wouldn't let him direct traffic into the B without turning it over to them. Long story short, we all had a choice of not following tower's instructions of going into the B without permission.

BTW, they directed a few student pilots into the B which caused the biggest rowe.

It's since been worked out, but it was quite an issue for awhile.

Best,

Dave

 

[gismo]

Well, it would certainly be long enough for a Cessna 172 or Piper which is about as fancy as I will likely ever get to fly.

Last time I was in there I departed on 16 but I was IFR so a Class B incursion wasn't an issue. I did have to sit there for about 30 minutes before getting released though, and it was kinda annoying because it was snowing at the time making the accumulation on the wings a concern.

Also IIRC 6-24 is in pretty bad shape.

 

[billwil]

Never busted, but came close twice. Once was on my checkride. Miraculously, I still passed.

Ya, PJ. We came pretty close when we were flying together in Phoenix. Was that the other one? We didn't bust...but were right there.

 

[SteveinIndy]

Also IIRC 6-24 is in pretty bad shape.

So are a lot of the runways I have landed on. As long as there aren't gaping potholes capable of swallowing the nosewheel, I'd take it over a grass strip any day of the week.

 

[Ted]

So are a lot of the runways I have landed on. As long as there aren't gaping potholes capable of swallowing the nosewheel, I'd take it over a grass strip any day of the week.

Perhaps you should do more landings on grass, then. Grass strips are fun!

 

[SteveinIndy]

Eh, to each and to their own. It's not that I won't land on grass, it's just that it is just not my favorite runway surface (if that makes sense).

 

[catmandu]

Eh, to each and to their own. It's not that I won't land on grass, it's just that it is just not my favorite runway surface (if that makes sense).

You just paraphrased a friend of mine in college.

 

[SteveinIndy]

Why do I have a feeling he was not referring to flying when he made a similar comment? LOL

 

[gismo]

Eh, to each and to their own. It's not that I won't land on grass, it's just that it is just not my favorite runway surface (if that makes sense).

I'm guessing that you haven't done much taildragger landing where grass is definitely your friend. There are things I don't like about grass such as hidden holes, very limited braking when wet, and in many places gravel that nicks the props, but assuming the length is sufficient for conditions IMO it's easier to land on grass than asphalt in most light planes. What is it you don't like about turf runways?

 

[Palmpilot]

I've busted the edge of class B probably half a dozen times in the past seventeen years. The first few times I filed an ASRS report. Nobody ever said anything to me about any of them, although I did have a controller VOLUNTEER a class B clearance once, after I had inadvertently climbed into it a bit while responding to a traffic call.

 

[mikea]

I've always wanted to fly into KPWK once I get my PPL and some experience, but I'm too chicken of all the traffic up there to actually do it by myself, especially as VFR flight. My fiancee actually wants to go up to Chicago for our honeymoon instead of Hawaii (saving money mostly) and suggested I fly us up there if I have my license by then. I told her no freaking way. The equation of:

(New private pilot with about 120+ hours + airliners)/limited and restricted airspace) + *******s manning CHI_APP

equals too much for me to willingly do that flight.

Relax. The tower closes at 10(?) PM and then it's a CTAF.

A lot fewer airliners around then, too.

 

[SteveinIndy]

I'm guessing that you haven't done much taildragger landing where grass is definitely your friend. There are things I don't like about grass such as hidden holes, very limited braking when wet, and in many places gravel that nicks the props, but assuming the length is sufficient for conditions IMO it's easier to land on grass than asphalt in most light planes. What is it you don't like about turf runways?

No I have flown in a taildragger. Personally, I don't have much desire to either.....just not my cup of tea.

As to what I don't like about grass strips, I don't like getting bounced all over the place like has happened every time I have flown onto or off a grass strip. Also I just prefer being on a nice hard surface.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Chicago Executive has an interesting departure procedure if you are taking off on 16.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0901/05028PAL-WAUKEE.PDF

This is not as much of an issue for a slow plane as it is for a fast one.

Interesting DP, Mari. Note says "a turn radius of less than 5000' is required." Question is, how many of us can compute what that would take, before departure, to be SURE they could comply?

I know I couldn't. Gut feel?

So I looked it up and got my daughter to help me with her TI calculator:

No wind radius of turn can be calculated as:

(KTAS^2) / (11.26 * TAN(angle of bank)) (source)

If you assume a bank angle of 20 degrees in the turn (we have to pick SOME number, since bank angle required to fly a standard rate turn varies with airspeed), and solve for airspeed, you get:

KTAS = SqrRt (5000 * (11.26 x tan(20)) )

Which means at 20 degrees bank, you can go as fast as 143.15 knots and make that restriction--any faster at 20 degrees, and you're outside the limits.

At 30 degrees bank, you can go as fast as 180.3 knots.

I'd like to know a SIMPLER way to "guesstimate" this in the cockpit. Something I can look up on a Jepp or NOAA table would be GREAT. Of course, since it's for a DP, this could be part of your pre-flight calculator work... assuming you have that formula recorded somewhere.

 

[Everskyward]

I'd like to know a SIMPLER way to "guesstimate" this in the cockpit. Something I can look up on a Jepp or NOAA table would be GREAT.

Look at the table at the top of the page. It shows the bank angle you need depending on your speed. Granted, it doesn't figure in the wind.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Look at the table at the top of the page. It shows the bank angle you need depending on your speed. Granted, it doesn't figure in the wind.

LOL! I totally missed that, as I wasn't studying the dp to actually use it, but was just looking at what made it "tricky".

Well, it validates the equation! ;-)

 

[Everskyward]

Well, it validates the equation! ;-)

I was pretty impressed with all that math!

 

[rottydaddy]

If it wasn't originally certificated with an electrical system, and one hasn't been added, it would be legal within the veil and below the ceiling of the class Bravo as long as it didn't actually enter the class B. See 91.215(b)(3).

I was happily surprised to discover this rule when I was flying a Champ around San Diego... even with a little wind generator between the gear legs to power the radio, it was exempt from any Mode C veil requirements because it was not certified with an engine-driven generator or alternator.

Made it possible to fly through the corridor above KSAN without talking to anybody (but using the CTAF of course). Really not tricky at all, especially in someting that slow. Flew right over the airport (well within the vertical limits of the exclusion, of course).

Still feel like you're getting away with something, even though it's legal...I wonder if it showed up on radar at all, with no tx?

I've never had any real need to penetrate a Class B, even in the NYC area. Tried to transition maybe twice and was denied, but it was no big disappointment. Probably better off... the sky gets a lot smaller inside a Class B.

Easy enough to go around or under... and no, I've never busted one.

 

[maddog52]

I was happily surprised to discover this rule when I was flying a Champ around San Diego... even with a little wind generator between the gear legs to power the radio, it was exempt from any Mode C veil requirements because it was not certified with an engine-driven generator or alternator.

Made it possible to fly through the corridor above KSAN without talking to anybody (but using the CTAF of course). Really not tricky at all, especially in someting that slow. Flew right over the airport (well within the vertical limits of the exclusion, of course).

Still feel like you're getting away with something, even though it's legal...I wonder if it showed up on radar at all, with no tx?

I fly my brother's Luscombe 8A in and out of the Class D at KRYY which is located under Atlanta's mode C veil. No transponder and just a handheld VHF. Usually no problem but we carry a copy of the reg on board so we can educate the occasional controller. You're right about feeling like you're getting away with some thing, but it's nice to have the reference handy that proves you're not.:smile:

 

[gismo]

If it wasn't originally certificated with an electrical system, and one hasn't been added, it would be legal within the veil and below the ceiling of the class Bravo as long as it didn't actually enter the class B. See 91.215(b)(3).

My Porterfield is based and flown under the MSP class B all the time. All perfectly legal as Jay pointed out. I did have a problem when flying became legal after 9/11 but got a wavier for that. But every now and then the tower tells me that I forgot to turn my transponder on. And yesterday a new controller he wasn't getting a Mode C altitude from my transponder, I told him I was surprised he was getting any reply at all since I didn't have a transponder onboard.

 

[gismo]

Usually no problem but we carry a copy of the reg on board so we can educate the occasional controller. You're right about feeling like you're getting away with some thing, but it's nice to have the reference handy that proves you're not.:smile:

I've never had to explain the reg to a controller but I don't honestly know if any have thought I was "illegal" and just let it slide by.

 

[maddog52]

Look at the table at the top of the page. It shows the bank angle you need depending on your speed. Granted, it doesn't figure in the wind.

I usually use Turn Radius for STD Rate =~ 0.5% of TAS.

120 KTASx .005= 0.6NM= 3600 ft

Close enough for government work!!

 

[gismo]

I usually use Turn Radius for STD Rate =~ 0.5% of TAS.

120 KTASx .005= 0.6NM= 3600 ft

Close enough for government work!!

That works for a standard rate turn (3deg/sec). In feet it's KTAS*32.23333... 33 is close enough with an error of about 1 ft per Kt and fairly easy to do in your head. You have to go above 200 KTAS to require more than 30 degrees of bank for standard rate. BTW KTAS/7 gives a pretty close bank angle for a standard rate turn below 250 KTAS.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I haven't flown out of this field; so, haven't had to deal with this. But, there are several other departures that are interesting. Out of Yuma going west, the Argus One is interesting. Course, it's designed to keep one our of Mexico. Knowing the departures is good for VFR folks also so they are aware of any constraints. Even when VFR, I like to look at the obstacle departures and keep the reasons they are there in mind.

I frequently have flown the departure out of San Diego Gillespie headed east which had one do a 180 after departure back over the airport; then another almost 180 back toward the ocean if radar contact wasn't established.

Best,

Dave

 

[mikea]

Chicago Executive has an interesting departure procedure if you are taking off on 16.

http://naco.faa.gov/d-tpp/0901/05028PAL-WAUKEE.PDF

This is not as much of an issue for a slow plane as it is for a fast one.

To my knowledge I can't remember busting Bravo but I have a short memory. I have busted other things, however. This is what I have been told a number of times about busts in general. The controller can "forgive" you as long as you do not lose legal separation with either other traffic or with terrain. If you do, it's either a controller deviation or a pilot deviation. You can still be forgiven but the forgiveness needs to come from an FAA inspector, not the controller.

I didn't think O'Hare was really that close. Take a look:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou...6488,-87.876205&spn=0.176937,0.22728&t=h&z=12

I'd gauge it's well over 10 statute miles before you would really be anywhere near the pattern for O'Hare.

What gets me is I think I've landed at PWK twice and it never occurred to me to watch really carefully how far south I got. In all cases I was landing from and taking off to the north and approaching from the lake. I dunno how I lucked out.

 

[Everskyward]

I didn't think O'Hare was really that close. Take a look

If you are looking at the chart for the departure procedure there is a note at the bottom that says "chart not to scale".

 

[gismo]

If you are looking at the chart for the departure procedure there is a note at the bottom that says "chart not to scale".

The distance from the PWK "DER" 16 to the nearest ORD runway is a tiny bit more than 6nm. The DP would put you about 4nm from that runway if there was no wind pushing you southward (seems like you wouldn't be departing on 16 if the wind was from the north). But the real conflict would be for traffic landing on 22R or 14L at ORD. The DP puts you pretty close to the final for 14L (about 3nm) if you stay within the limits given.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Several times! SFO, LAX, PHL, IAH, TPA, ORD, etc. But only after hearing "Cleared into class bravo..." or being IFR.