Have I lost my mind? ;)

zaitcev said:
Yeah, but what if...? The FBO assumes that risk for renters. If Lisa isn't kidding around, she can do Private just under $10k and in 3 months or less. I looked at $17k 150s, it was kinda a nightmare. So, we're talking $25k airplanes at this point. If she cannot recoup at the sale time, she's taking a major blow.

Also, Lisa is in Leander. Do you have any idea how hard it is to park an airplane in Georgetown? I tried and could not do it. Just a few miles south, in Executive, they have a waiting list for spot in community hangar for $500/month.

Owning is really nice, if you're committed long term and okay with the expense. I had it with renting under the span of 3 years. But I can only see it making sense for a student who's financially secure and plans on keeping the airplane long term - possibly through an overhaul.

P.S. Maybe she can get into a club. You cannot shake a stick without hitting one around here.
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Like I said, if you don't have any major outlays like an engine or expensive avionics, it's the cheapest way to go from zero-to-hero. Buy an aircraft (an aircraft loan for $40K is easily doable for most), pay nothing but tie-down and fuel/normal maintenance for a few hundred hours until the comm is obtained, then sell the aircraft for near what you paid for it. Your cost ends up being whatever fuel, maintenance, tie-down and insurance was. If you're flying 100+hrs per year, which would be the case if you're trying to fast track to the Comm rating, owning makes sense versus renting. Sure, there's risk involved in buying a lemon, but most of those items can be reasonably mitigated during pre-buy/annual. It may not be for everyone, but there isn't likely a cheaper option, or one that will allow such flexibility in her schedule.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Your cost ends up being whatever fuel, maintenance, tie-down and insurance was.
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Add cost of debt service to this list. Likely not a much $$, but wanted to make sure your list included it.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Add cost of debt service to this list. Likely not a much $$, but wanted to make sure your list included it.
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Correct. Interest on a $40K/10-yr note isn't likely enormous, but not negligible, either. Most estimates I've seen still put the cost around $100/hr or less all-in, which is cheaper than any rental by $15-$30/hr
 
Zeldman said:
Because it is better to find out now if able to carry a 2nd class before all the money and time is spent..??
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zaitcev said:
Why not go to 1st, then? Airlines all the way!
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Agreed! By extension of the 2nd class logic, Lisa needs to get her 1st class medical exam every 1/2 year until she's in the airlines. Just in case, right? :D

Lisa, you received a lot of good information in this thread, it should get you started nicely.
Good luck in your proceedings, no matter who you end up flying for.
 
zaitcev said:
Why not go to 1st, then? Airlines all the way!
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I try to shoot down that kind of thinking. What if she could easily meet the second class medical requirements but asks the AME for a first class...and is denied. From that moment forward, every FAA application she fills out will ask the question: "Have you ever had an medical certificate denied?" That is a deal killer. She should go for the second, which is all that she needs for her immediate goals, and wait until her career path (or employer's insurance carrier) requires the first class.

Bob
 
bobmrg said:
I try to shoot down that kind of thinking. What if she could easily meet the second class medical requirements but asks the AME for a first class...and is denied. From that moment forward, every FAA application she fills out will ask the question: "Have you ever had an medical certificate denied?" That is a deal killer. She should go for the second, which is all that she needs for her immediate goals, and wait until her career path (or employer's insurance carrier) requires the first class.

Bob
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Sorry, Bob, this was not meant as a serious post. We were playing the "ad absurdum" game.
 
I'm helping a guy who is 82 years old and working on his PPL.
If you can get in and out of the plane under your own power you are still young enough to do it.
 
zaitcev said:
For whatever reason (apparently, it's incompatible with Firefox), the Designee Search comes up empty for any sort of query I tried. If FAA website continues to fail like this, Lisa might as well just call Andy Chen, 513-324-3338.

Lago Vista has an AOPA club that can set one up with independent instructors. Personally, with Georgetown so close, I'd look up a Part 61 school there (Lago doesn't have one).

The most important advice I can give is to Get. It. Done. And Quicky. Fly 3 times a week. Second most important advice is to lose weight and hit the gym. Forget cardio, learn to love the squat rack. After that, it's all in God's hands.
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Here's the plan......I am making a appt with a AME here in Austin. Come to find out, my family doctor has his ppl and gave me his AME contact. I will also, BEFORE I go to the AME make a appt with the eye doctor just in case. I need readers but that is it so far but I do not want to be caught off guard by something. I will then go check out different schools but the one I have been referred to is Gemini Aviation, in Georgetown Tx. I will be contacting my credit union and see about a loan that I control!!!! THEN I FLY!!!!! Thanks again everyone. I feel like I have hit the jackpot with all of you and your valuable advice.
Lisa
 
Please do is a favor, start a thread here and keep us posted on your progress. Oh, and good on ya!!
 
Lisa L Fuller said:
I will be contacting my credit union and see about a loan that I control
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Any possible way you could do this without debt?

One suggestion I like to make regarding the financials. Following this plan will ensure that lack of funds isn't the reason that keeps you from training. And this plan also works to avoid getting you into any debt.
  • Plan for ~$9000.00, plus or minus for regionality. This can include aircraft rental, supplies, testing fees, books, etc.
  • Do what is necessary to fill up your money bucket to at least 60% to 66% of the total funds required or budgeted.
    • This includes taking on additional hours at work, part time jobs, neighborhood handyperson jobs, mowing dogs, walking lawns, house sitting, etc.
    • Hold a garage sale. You might be able to get as much as 10% of your funding uncluttering your house.
    • Do anything legal that increases your income
  • Once you have 60% to 66% of the money, open the tap at the bottom of your bucket and start training.
  • As you deplete money from the bottom of your bucket, continue to work the extra income jobs to add to the top of the bucket.
  • If you finish with money left over in the bucket, plan for a celebratory flight with your sweetie to a really nice dinner.
 
For the eye exam, take one of these for the eye doc to fill out. Then if the AME needs/wants it, you already have it done.
 

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Shepherd said:
I'm helping a guy who is 82 years old and working on his PPL.
If you can get in and out of the plane under your own power you are still young enough to do it.
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I think being able to demonstrate that one can fly safely during a flight review every two years would also be a rational criterion.
 
Lisa L Fuller said:
Oh feel I can pass the medical examine but will make that a priority first.
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Do not make an application first based on the feeling. Many people have been caught by some snafu that way. Best to get the consult first, then activate the application when the AME can issue you in the office.

See http://tinyurl.com/ame-consult about how to do this.
 
@Lisa L Fuller, my wife flew for the airlines and wishes she could go back but our daughter is too young right now and she couldn't stand being away from her that much. So at least you are past that tough spot.

There is one thing from reading your responses - I am getting this vibe that you "feel" good enough to pass the medical. Of course this is the internet, not face to face so I could be wrong.

However this single, first step is very crucial to get 100% right. Its not the simple stuff like already knowing you have good blood pressure and correct eyeglass prescription. Its answering the questions "Have you ever in your life....". Just having a child means you've been to the hospital and it will need to be mentioned. Any surgeries, any broken bones, etc. But then it gets even more tricky...alcohol and drug related issues. But there is more...the minefield issues of any psych issues, drugs taken for psych issues, etc. Just answering one question honestly that just happens to set off all FAA alarms is likely going to kill your dream. Please get the form and read it. If you have to answer yes to anything, at least come back here and explain it. If there is anything even remotely suspect the people here can get you in touch with the best AME to help you work through it or abort.

My wife is now on a Asthma medication. She wasn't during her aviation career times so it wasn't an issue then. She did go awhile with a denied medical (translation: she ain't flying anything, not even light sport). Once she could prove the Asthma medication was controlling things and her regular doctor signed off, the AME then moved things along to get her 3rd class going again. So that is just one example. So is sleep apnea, so are just about any medication you might take (birth control is okay).

An early suggestion to meet up with mentor(s) would be perfect. Perhaps you could find 2 or 3 people from this forum in your area and meet them and just chat and chat and chat. You will learn so much. I was fortunate that my wife was my mentor as I learned to fly. I would have made so many mistakes without her to bust me on incorrect "expectations". And to backup the local flight school argument vs a college. My wife did all ratings and licenses on her own. She tried at a University flight program and bailed right away due to cost, politics, etc. So she just saved up and then did a rating/license at a time, repeat until done all while working a normal job.

All that being said...you can do it!!!

Maybe I missed it...do you already have a college degree (it can be helpful for hiring at places like Delta that seem to want 4yr degrees)?

We own a plane and flying it is awesome. But building hours, even in your own plane, towards the airlines minimums will easily approach/exceed $100,000. That's why becoming a instructor (CFI or CFII) will mostly likely be in your future - the time building (hours) will be paid by someone else.

More questions: How close are you to the nearest airports? Are you a veteran (GI Bill)? What is your regular daytime job? Is this a single parent situation where you are receiving some type of additional income (divorce alimony, spouse benefits, etc). Knowing some of that (in general, no need for specifics) might also give insight to others here on what rate of training you can achieve.

No matter what - go do that discovery flight :) You don't need a medical for that!!!
 
Shepherd said:
I'm helping a guy who is 82 years old and working on his PPL.
If you can get in and out of the plane under your own power you are still young enough to do it.
Click to expand...

That makes my taking the PP ride at 49 and the IR ride at 59 seem like nothing. :p

OP - go for it. Get the medical out of the way and then start lessons. That medical is key, without it you will never solo. And, if you find it will be a problem (before sending it to the FAA) there's always gliders and light sport. Just don't see an AME and get denied.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Any possible way you could do this without debt?
* Plan for ~$9000.00, plus or minus for regionality. This can include aircraft rental, supplies, testing fees, books, etc.
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Lisa can only hit the $9k target if she flies no less than 2 times a week without fail. That pretty much requires setting aside the time to fly 3 times a week, with 1 flight getting canceled for aviatory reasons like maintenance, higher priority rental, weather, as well as for own reasons. I suspect the required cash flow is why she looks at a loan. I dragged it out and ended spending $14k+.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Like I said, if you don't have any major outlays like an engine or expensive avionics, it's the cheapest way to go from zero-to-hero. Buy an aircraft (an aircraft loan for $40K is easily doable for most), pay nothing but tie-down and fuel/normal maintenance for a few hundred hours until the comm is obtained, then sell the aircraft for near what you paid for it. Your cost ends up being whatever fuel, maintenance, tie-down and insurance was. If you're flying 100+hrs per year, which would be the case if you're trying to fast track to the Comm rating, owning makes sense versus renting. Sure, there's risk involved in buying a lemon, but most of those items can be reasonably mitigated during pre-buy/annual. It may not be for everyone, but there isn't likely a cheaper option, or one that will allow such flexibility in her schedule.
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This is assuming she will turn around and sell the plane for the same or more than what she paid. A 172 is probably a safe bet to hold its value more or less, but you can't be sure. If she keeps the plane she will eventually have the engine overhauls, electronics upgrades etc. and no matter how well the pre-buy there is always the risk of surprises.

This is a good option only if she already has several months household income in cash ready for emergencies, (you don't want to put that into a plane) and a great retirement plan on track, and maybe most important, can do basic repair and maintenance yourself plus willing to take on the headaches of plane ownership. FAA registration, insurance, additional liability on top of the basic insurance (enough to protect aforementioned assets, my lawyer recommends at least 3-4 million based on current jury awards), keeping up with scheduled maintenance requirements, buying and storing the oil and other miscellaneous stuff, worrying when a hail storm comes along - we aren't including the cost of a hangar - and generally worrying about your baby.

What interest rate she can get on a loan, and would she be better off putting the loan payment amounts into an IRA? Your 40s is not a good time to take on debt as a general statement but it all depends on her exact financial situation, and her willingness to do the actual physical and emotional work of being a plane owner.

On the flip side, there is nothing better than training in your own plane. The N number is always the same, it's always left in the state you left it the last time you flew it, no other people's sneeze germs all over the controls, you can leave stuff in it, you control whether it gets new tires if you think they're needed or whether some quirk needs to be looked at. On the other hand if some quirk pops up it's your problem to fix it, not somebody else's. On the other, other hand you feel safer when you do get it fixed. But then that is added cost we aren't including. It's probably a wash whether she saves anything by buying in my opinion. Owning means you're going to want to spend on miscellaneous, like buying a cover because it'll be parked outside.

And then there's whether she is going to prefer a high wing over a low wing. :D
 
Maybe Mark is more of a TNG fan than TOS
 
mscard88 said:
Never watched that show nor into it as many are. I was busy getting my flying career started I guess. Always put st the airport.
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I've always been a fan, but I had to Google this reference.
 
Geez now you're putting conditions and requirements on me Mike! :eek:
 
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