Hangar Waiting List

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
So I have a question I'm sure will upset a few people!

How does your airport handle waiting lists?

We have a list of over 70 people waiting for a hangar at our airport. Somewhere along the way, someone started giving special treatment to anyone who tied down on the ramp. If you pay for a tie-down spot, you move to the top of the list. Their logic is you are already a customer of the City, so you get first shot.

The Airport Rules the City has on their website doesn't have this rule. It says if you tie-down, you don't lose your spot on the list. It says nothing about moving to the top.

There is a rule that says if you have a business or even work for a business within the city limits, you move to the top because this promotes city growth.

I know people who have been on the list for years and they're going backwards. When I told the manager that he was not following the rules, he told me I needed to move back to my old hangar... I just moved from one to another one that opened up. I didn't prevent anyone from getting a new hangar, just traded and left my old one open. He says it's the same logic... I was renting a space and moved to another one. The people on the ramp are doing the same thing. It's flawed logic. To me it's similar to a busy restaurant saying they only have outside seating and there's a long list to sit inside. When they seat you outside, you then get to move straight inside because you're already a customer.

On another subject, I've told the manager he should have the rules revisited as they have some strange ones like you can't do a straight in approach without prior approval from the airport manager. He tells me he can't enforce that one for a transient pilot, but he can with me because I'm a tenant of the city. I'm dangerously close to calling the FAA, which I really don't want to do.
 
Small town politics. It's a miasma of special interest writ small.

The four airports I've been to are all private fields, and I do this for a reason. although the private airports also have some interesting interpretations of rules, at least I know that the people making them are looking out for their own best interest, and not making stuff up to appease some special interest. Their special interest is the bottom line, and it's well known.

I"m on the wait list for a hangar at one of the private fields, and yes - they do have a plan that if you take a spot in the community hangar while you wait, you move up the list for a T-hangar over those who are on the wait list. The price for the comm hangar is about 30% higher than the price for the T hangar so they are encouraging those wanting to stay there to spend money in the interim and will reward patrons for this effort. I have no problem with it because it's clearly stated, and well known to everyone, and everyone has the option of moving to the comm hangar and moving up.

I think the key is disclosure and public awareness. I don't find the practice either good or bad, it's their business and they can run it anyway they like. If the city runs the hangar list, and they publish a rule about the move up policy then no harm no foul. If they don't, and make special consideration for one group without public discussion that is very bad.
 
I bet there's another rule that you don't know about that says he who questions the rules has the rule book thrown at them.
 
Yeah, the actual rule says: "If a potential renter decides to rent a tie-down, that person will retain their spot on the waiting list unless they request to be removed from the list."
 
Lowflynjack said:
Yeah, the actual rule says: "If a potential renter decides to rent a tie-down, that person will retain their spot on the waiting list unless they request to be removed from the list."
Click to expand...

Then if there's a movement going on with the wait list for people who tie down, this sounds like a clear violation of the public rules. So, you would be justified in raising a stink about it. Which will lead to all kinds of trouble for you personally because you are now a 'troublemaker'. Your plane will be found deficient, every operation at the airport will be scrutinized with vigor, your check payment may be 'lost' in the mail, etc. Eventually leading to you being evicted from the airport and a space being opened up for the next person.
 
Is the wait list published?
 
Probably! The funny part is, they want me to join the airport board. I was seriously considering it, but I've decided I don't feel like butting heads with everyone on an advisory board.

It just seems there is no common sense. Our airport flooded on Memorial Day. We lost around 11 planes and many people, including me had a lot of cleanup to do and had to replace our wheel bearings. We all chipped in and got the airport cleaned up and returned to normal... probably better. How did they reward us? They raised our rent by 5% last month! I know 5% isn't much, but who thought it was a good time to raise the rent on us after a flood? Gotta love government.

docmirror said:
Then if there's a movement going on with the wait list for people who tie down, this sounds like a clear violation of the public rules. So, you would be justified in raising a stink about it. Which will lead to all kinds of trouble for you personally because you are now a 'troublemaker'. Your plane will be found deficient, every operation at the airport will be scrutinized with vigor, your check payment may be 'lost' in the mail, etc. Eventually leading to you being evicted from the airport and a space being opened up for the next person.
Click to expand...
 
Lowflynjack said:
Probably! The funny part is, they want me to join the airport board. I was seriously considering it, but I've decided I don't feel like butting heads with everyone on an advisory board.

It just seems there is no common sense. Our airport flooded on Memorial Day. We lost around 11 planes and many people, including me had a lot of cleanup to do and had to replace our wheel bearings. We all chipped in and got the airport cleaned up and returned to normal... probably better. How did they reward us? They raised our rent by 5% last month! I know 5% isn't much, but who thought it was a good time to raise the rent on us after a flood? Gotta love government.
Click to expand...

This happens at private fields as well. One reason I'm shopping again is my current place has just raise the rent 20%. They paved about 1200' of taxiway that didn't really need to be paved and raised everyone's rent.

I gave notice and now I'll be moving on to somewhere else. Private airports aren't immune from stupidity either. It's the nature of the beast, that metro area hangars are oversubscribed, so both can get away with this kind of mishigoss. It would be nice if they were hungry for business, but they aren't.
 
You can't beat city hall,if you quote the rules,hopefully you know them all. I feel your pain.
 
docmirror said:
Small town politics. It's a miasma of special interest writ small.

The four airports I've been to are all private fields, and I do this for a reason. although the private airports also have some interesting interpretations of rules, at least I know that the people making them are looking out for their own best interest, and not making stuff up to appease some special interest. Their special interest is the bottom line, and it's well known.

I"m on the wait list for a hangar at one of the private fields, and yes - they do have a plan that if you take a spot in the community hangar while you wait, you move up the list for a T-hangar over those who are on the wait list. The price for the comm hangar is about 30% higher than the price for the T hangar so they are encouraging those wanting to stay there to spend money in the interim and will reward patrons for this effort. I have no problem with it because it's clearly stated, and well known to everyone, and everyone has the option of moving to the comm hangar and moving up.

I think the key is disclosure and public awareness. I don't find the practice either good or bad, it's their business and they can run it anyway they like. If the city runs the hangar list, and they publish a rule about the move up policy then no harm no foul. If they don't, and make special consideration for one group without public discussion that is very bad.
Click to expand...

I think you nailed it. People generally are okay with stuff when they know why and when it happens. When they start making exceptions or doing stuff differently without justification, it makes people upset.
 
Especially when you quote their rules to them and they act surprised.

My friend was going to start an IT business anyway. He'll now base it in Taylor and beat the system.
 
So let me get this straight....

Say I get on the list for a hangar, maybe I'm waiting to get the hangar before purchasing the airplane or maybe I have my plane based at an airport that's a very long drive away because I feel the need to have it under roof.

I've been on the waiting list for a year or more, waiting for the day I can finally have my airplane at my "home" base... then some guy moves in, pays for a tie-down space and now he gets put ahead of me on the list? Sounds fundamentally unfair to me.

What the FAA and any other agencies involved need to figure out how to do is either de-regulate, adjust regulations, or get grants so that it become feasible for more GA hangars to be built. The demand is certainly there, no good reason why it has to be so ungodly expensive to put one up. Most of us don't need much more than a simple pole barn and, ideally, an outlet for a pre-heater. I've even seen setups where there's just a big roof/shelter and rows of tie-downs under it which would be better than nothing.
 
cowman said:
What the FAA and any other agencies involved need to figure out how to do is either de-regulate, adjust regulations, or get grants so that it become feasible for more GA hangars to be built. The demand is certainly there, no good reason why it has to be so ungodly expensive to put one up. Most of us don't need much more than a simple pole barn and, ideally, an outlet for a pre-heater. I've even seen setups where there's just a big roof/shelter and rows of tie-downs under it which would be better than nothing.
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I am not an advocate of more oversight. Adding the FAA or another three letter agency into the process of serving the hangar needs of the public would almost surely reduce space, efficiency, and increase cost. The recent debate on non-aviation use of hangars is a good example. This is a municipal or county issue and should be resolved at that level. On a private field, the resolution should be between the airport owner and tenants.

I'm in a simple pole barn with an AC outlet, and that's all I want. However most urban and suburban dwellers want paved floor, security gates, big FBO with all the fixins', tow avail, A&P on staff. Be careful what you ask for.
 
Very common practice.

You can go from tie-down to shade hangar to T-hangar to full box hangar in as little as 4 months at some Texas airports. And you need not ever have your plane in any of the intermediate stops.
 
If more informal methods don't work, sue them and make them follow their own rules. :dunno:

But do their rules also state that they will necessarily go in chrono order? There's almost always some weasel words the leave something up to some person's discretion.
 
Never delt with one, if you ask around usually you can get the inside scoop on a hangar or find another airport with a opening.
 
Sounds like the property tax board in most Texas counties. I knew I was in trouble when they asked what Consumer Price Index was.
 
rolivi said:
Very common practice.

You can go from tie-down to shade hangar to T-hangar to full box hangar in as little as 4 months at some Texas airports. And you need not ever have your plane in any of the intermediate stops.
Click to expand...

Can you name one?? Seriously!
 
Lowflynjack said:
Sometimes I do. I have a couple of friends who have been on the list for a long time. Since they can't let their airplanes sit on a ramp, they're punished!
Click to expand...

It seems like you could pay for the tie down and just park your plane there a few days a month. I doubt anyone is making sure the tie down is in use.
 
a few years back, the ahem people at ma$$port had over 200 people on a waiting list for a hangar. Did they look into building more hangars (ya know, generate more revenue)? Nooooooo.

They raised rates. Over $600/month for a T-hangar (unheated)

But didn't solve the "problem".

Soooooo, they started charging $100 (every 2 years) to be on the waiting list. Non-refundable. Did not apply to hangar rental or security deposit.

Sweet, eh?
 
Bob Noel said:
Soooooo, they started charging $100 (every 2 years) to be on the waiting list. Non-refundable. Did not apply to hangar rental or security deposit.
Click to expand...

KWVI is going to this model...upping wait list fees from $35 to $100/year...but they will credit some back to your fist month rent when and if you ever get a hangar. Current wait list is 4-5 years. Been on two years and only moved half way up the list.

They also have a stupid policy that if your name comes up, you can pass but still retain your spot in line...which has led to over 50 people list squatting. Sounds like they are gonna finally do away with that policy...so I am OK with the $100 if it speeds things up.
 
Yes, that's exactly what happens... except my friend has been on the list for 4 years! Central Texas has a major hangar shortage. He keeps his plane over an hour away in Temple, which is much cheaper, but a pain to get to.
cowman said:
So let me get this straight....

Say I get on the list for a hangar, maybe I'm waiting to get the hangar before purchasing the airplane or maybe I have my plane based at an airport that's a very long drive away because I feel the need to have it under roof.

I've been on the waiting list for a year or more, waiting for the day I can finally have my airplane at my "home" base... then some guy moves in, pays for a tie-down space and now he gets put ahead of me on the list? Sounds fundamentally unfair to me.
Click to expand...

Not in the Austin area!
rolivi said:
You can go from tie-down to shade hangar to T-hangar to full box hangar in as little as 4 months at some Texas airports. And you need not ever have your plane in any of the intermediate stops.
Click to expand...

He actually tried that once. They told him it was unethical! Then they offered to let him park on the ramp for free when he flew over on the weekends!
John221us said:
It seems like you could pay for the tie down and just park your plane there a few days a month. I doubt anyone is making sure the tie down is in use.
Click to expand...
 
I wonder if you couldn't just buy a non-airworthy aircraft and pay for the tie-down... ;)

What I don't understand is if the waiting list is that deep - why aren't they building hangars. Sure seems like the demands it there.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Yes, that's exactly what happens... except my friend has been on the list for 4 years! Central Texas has a major hangar shortage. He keeps his plane over an hour away in Temple, which is much cheaper, but a pain to.
Click to expand...

I bought my plane at Temple and those are some of the nicest hangars I've seen at a county airport... And cheap too! I think they were listed at $145. I pay $470 in Reno and our tarmac is a disaster compared to Temple. It looks like Temple used some sort of DG for the areas in front of the hangars and asphalt for the taxiway and main ramp.

I am on the west side of Reno and the wait list for the east side is 7 years according to Atlantic Aviation who manages them. No idea why they won't build more... They actually tore some down recently.
 
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I would like to point out again, that this is generally a public airport issue. We have T hangars avail for a modest fee, we have enclosed hangars for more, we have inexpensive covered tie down at turf private airports for ~$100/mo. Like I said, most people want to be 3 minutes from the plane, they want all the gewgaws of a modern big GA airport, and they want it for very low cost. That is why the muni and county airports aren't building any new facilities. They can keep the hangars they have now rented for outrageous fees, and don't need to maintain any more improvements.
 
ibgarrett said:
What I don't understand is if the waiting list is that deep - why aren't they building hangars. Sure seems like the demands it there.
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At KWVI it is a combination of city level mismanagement (not the airport admin) from "creative" financing from the last hangar build loan and environmental nut jobs. We had VASI lights down for months cuz they had to battle to put in a 4'x4' concrete pad due to an endangered weed that "could" be...not "is" on the field.

There are plans for more hangars...but it will never happen.

Positive revenue stream is irrelevant when it comes to city government.
 
docmirror said:
I would like to point out again, that this is generally a public airport issue. We have T hangars avail for a modest fee, we have enclosed hangars for more, we have inexpensive covered tie down at turf private airports for ~$100/mo. Like I said, most people want to be 3 minutes from the plane, they want all the gewgaws of a modern big GA airport, and they want it for very low cost. That is why the muni and county airports aren't building any new facilities. They can keep the hangars they have now rented for outrageous fees, and don't need to maintain any more improvements.
Click to expand...
I'd like those prices. I pay $100/mo for an uncovered tie down. Covered would be $250 and any hangaring is well north of $500. I'll probably move to covered here in the near future though.
 
I guess my question is... how come nothing gets built in America anymore?

So there's a hangar shortage--why can't they build? Same with roads, bridges, etc.
 
mkosmo said:
I'd like those prices. I pay $100/mo for an uncovered tie down. Covered would be $250 and any hangaring is well north of $500. I'll probably move to covered here in the near future though.
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Hop on skyvector.com, and start calling private airports. Ask an A&P, or better yet a plane broker. Plenty of private places have hangars for rent. Be warned, you may be flying out of a turf field, and you aren't gonna get hot cookies and coffee in the FBO, but money is money.
 
docmirror said:
Hop on skyvector.com, and start calling private airports. Ask an A&P, or better yet a plane broker. Plenty of private places have hangars for rent. Be warned, you may be flying out of a turf field, and you aren't gonna get hot cookies and coffee in the FBO, but money is money.
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I had initially put my aircraft here while training and I had considered another nearby field that had cheap hangars, but it just closed in like March :-(

I do know of one other unlit small field that may have some cheap parking, but I'd like to at least have a lit runway for night flying. Perks come with costs! That seems true about all of aviation lol
 
Shawn said:
We had VASI lights down for months cuz they had to battle to put in a 4'x4' concrete pad due to an endangered weed that "could" be...not "is" on the field.
Click to expand...

I was just reading about this and thinking how glad I am to not live in California. Every time I drive over the mountain I have to stop at the agricultural inspection station where they ask me where I am coming from. I reply "Nevada" and they wave me through. That place cost millions to build, is staffed 24/7, and is 100% useless.

Once, on a slow day, I asked why I have to stop there every time, but if I fly over the mountain to a random CA airport, nobody cares. The guy did not know how to respond. I am surprised anything is allowed to happen in California and would not be surprised if no hangars were ever built in the state again. :no: :rolleyes2:

I am actually going down to WVI soon to visit family in the area. How is it for a transient visit? I promise not to upset any of their weeds. :D
 
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Lowflynjack said:
So I have a question I'm sure will upset a few people!

How does your airport handle waiting lists?

We have a list of over 70 people waiting for a hangar at our airport. Somewhere along the way, someone started giving special treatment to anyone who tied down on the ramp. If you pay for a tie-down spot, you move to the top of the list. Their logic is you are already a customer of the City, so you get first shot.

The Airport Rules the City has on their website doesn't have this rule. It says if you tie-down, you don't lose your spot on the list. It says nothing about moving to the top.

There is a rule that says if you have a business or even work for a business within the city limits, you move to the top because this promotes city growth.

I know people who have been on the list for years and they're going backwards. When I told the manager that he was not following the rules, he told me I needed to move back to my old hangar... I just moved from one to another one that opened up. I didn't prevent anyone from getting a new hangar, just traded and left my old one open. He says it's the same logic... I was renting a space and moved to another one. The people on the ramp are doing the same thing. It's flawed logic. To me it's similar to a busy restaurant saying they only have outside seating and there's a long list to sit inside. When they seat you outside, you then get to move straight inside because you're already a customer.

On another subject, I've told the manager he should have the rules revisited as they have some strange ones like you can't do a straight in approach without prior approval from the airport manager. He tells me he can't enforce that one for a transient pilot, but he can with me because I'm a tenant of the city. I'm dangerously close to calling the FAA, which I really don't want to do.
Click to expand...

Im perfectly ok with tie down clients getting first call. Paying customers should get something for their loyalty before other guys.

The restaurant analogy is apples to oranges.

I'm sure if you wanted to build your own hangar on leased land the airport would be glad to sign a multi year deal with you. If you want to wait with your hat in your hand to rent someone elses building you are at the mercy of their rules, and they can change the rules at their sole discretion.

Is the straight-in bit in your lease? or just a general requirement to abide by all airport regulations?
 
Mr. Fleeteood
I live close to Taylor and cannot understand why the west side is not used to build hangars and generate the income. The lack of hangars in Austin are the main reason I do not have my name on an aircraft title.
 
MSPAviator said:
I guess my question is... how come nothing gets built in America anymore?

So there's a hangar shortage--why can't they build? Same with roads, bridges, etc.
Click to expand...

At KBED, it would be political suicide to build hangars (and ma$$port is nothing if not political). There is a large number of NIMBY goons surrounding the airport. Anything even remotely considered to be an "expansion" of the airport would be met with howls and protests and all sorts of crap from the NIMBY goons.
 
MSPAviator said:
I guess my question is... how come nothing gets built in America anymore?

So there's a hangar shortage--why can't they build? Same with roads, bridges, etc.
Click to expand...

Apparently, because so few Chinese companies are doing construction in the states.
 
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