Hand Prop Prohibition

dmccormack

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dan Mc
I've recently learned that a few local airports prohibit hand propping of airplanes on airport grounds.

Anyone else heard of this? It's not in the AFD, but apparently is local rule due to insurance, whatever...
 
That is stupid. What are they going to do if you land there without a starter?
 
First thing I'd do is get a copy of the rule in print.

Amazing how many "rules" disappear when you do that ;)
 
ClimbnSink said:
That is stupid. What are they going to do if you land there without a starter?
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Enforcement is a problem. My guess is that in the wake of an accident they have more ammo...

:dunno:


MauleSkinner said:
First thing I'd do is get a copy of the rule in print.

Amazing how many "rules" disappear when you do that ;)
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I don't hangar there (after hearing that), but the one airport has it in the lease agreement.
 
dmccormack said:
Enforcement is a problem. My guess is that in the wake of an accident they have more ammo...

:dunno:




I don't hangar there (after hearing that), but the one airport has it in the lease agreement.
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So if I land there in my Porterfield I either have to get it trucked out or rig up a bungy launch and start it by diving fast enough to rotate the prop?

Seems to me a more appropriate requirement would prohibit hand propping unless the plane was tied down or there was a pilot at the controls.

And if all it takes is an accident to enact prohibitions, they'd better rule out landings as well since I doubt that there hasn't been at least one landing accident there.
 
My FBO prohibits hand propping their planes. I found this out after I landing in Superior, Wisconsin on the second leg of my long solo cross country and my starter died. A nice fellow hand propped it for me so I didn't have to spend the night.
 
Jack Spectre said:
My FBO prohibits hand propping their planes. I found this out after I landing in Superior, Wisconsin on the second leg of my long solo cross country and my starter died. A nice fellow hand propped it for me so I didn't have to spend the night.
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There's a difference between propping a 65 HP Champ/Chief/Cub and a dead battery 172.

What were you flying?
 
Jack Spectre said:
My FBO prohibits hand propping their planes. I found this out after I landing in Superior, Wisconsin on the second leg of my long solo cross country and my starter died. A nice fellow hand propped it for me so I didn't have to spend the night.
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We forbid it, too. Untrained people get hurt or killed way too often and airplanes get damaged. Besides, a dead battery won't pick the alternator field up after the engine starts and no charging will take place.

Dan
 
dmccormack said:
There's a difference between propping a 65 HP Champ/Chief/Cub and a dead battery 172.

What were you flying?
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Dan Thomas said:
We forbid it, too. Untrained people get hurt or killed way too often and airplanes get damaged. Besides, a dead battery won't pick the alternator field up after the engine starts and no charging will take place.

Dan
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What are you going to do with a C-172 that doesn't have a working battery or electrical system? Make them truck it out?
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=338447&highlight=hand+prop#post338447
 
I've had to hand prop twice. One time I'm flying a Seneca on an Angel Flight in Saint George (KSGU) and the right engine won't turn over. A local A&P pulled the prop with me at the controls. Good outcome all the way around.

The other time we had a club fly-in at Furnace Creek L06 in Death Valley and a 172 was grounded with a starter that spinned but didn't catch. It's about 2hr away in a 172. So I went to our local A&P and got instruction. We hand propped another 172 and talked about other pilot capable things to do the start (the long skinny screw driver trick). It turned out the starter gear had failed broken into pieces. If we didn't hand prop it, the only other choice was 3 other long legs while paying our mechanic to enjoy the winter desert scenery.

Hand propping is hazardous not dangerous (ask Henning about the difference). Train well follow procedure and it is acceptable risk. Don't and it's dangerous.

Joe
 
Areeda said:
Hand propping is hazardous not dangerous (ask Henning about the difference). Train well follow procedure and it is acceptable risk. Don't and it's dangerous.
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In other words, it's dangerous for someone who doesn't know what they're doing (like me :)).
 
dmccormack said:
There's a difference between propping a 65 HP Champ/Chief/Cub and a dead battery 172.

What were you flying?
Click to expand...

Dan Thomas said:
We forbid it, too. Untrained people get hurt or killed way too often and airplanes get damaged. Besides, a dead battery won't pick the alternator field up after the engine starts and no charging will take place.

Dan
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I was flying a Piper Warrior. The battery wasn't dead, the starter was.
 
dmccormack said:
You forbid it for airplanes with electric start, I assume?
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The fleet is all-electric start. My own airplane has a hand-propped A-65. Students don't hand-prop it.

Dan
 
Just as a reminder. During Airventure the VAA puts on a very good hand propping clinic. I stopped by last year and learned some very good tips. Remember it can be done with a minimum of risk if done correctlye and carefully.
 
AuntPeggy said:
What are you going to do with a C-172 that doesn't have a working battery or electrical system? Make them truck it out?
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=338447&highlight=hand+prop#post338447
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No. We go fix it if it isn't too far away, or hire another outfit to do it if it is. However, we look after our starters and seldom have failures. The last one was the 600-hour-old Lamar starter on our 172S. The gear broke into bits. Lamar hasn't answered my calls. The failure happened right here at home.

On the typical Prestolite or Magnaflite starter on Lycomings, the starter drive gear gets gummed up where it rides on the spiral splines on the shaft. Only silicone lubricant should be used on them, or they'll attract dust and sludge up. If the engine's crankshaft seal is leaking, oil gets thrown into it and will sludge it up, too. On the Prestolites, the brushes need checking periodically. And finally, the starter and/or master solenoids often cause a weak or dead starter. A voltage drop check should be done on them at the first sign of sluggishness.

Keeping stuff up to snuff saves a lot of money and inconvenience in the long run. This seems to be an idea many people don't understand. Just look at the dead cars at the side of the road. Other common aircraft problems involve neglected magnetos, alternators, and so on. Note that all of these things are electrical; 40 years ago my Power Mechanics instructor told us young bucks that 90% of car troubles would be electrical in nature, and he was right. If he had been an aircraft mechanic instructor, he'd have been correct there, too. Yet, when it starts to run poorly, what do we immediately think? Fuel. Must be the carb.

Dan
 
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Back to Dan -- have you confirmed that this rule really exists in writing at those unnamed airports?
 
vontresc said:
Just as a reminder. During Airventure the VAA puts on a very good hand propping clinic. I stopped by last year and learned some very good tips. Remember it can be done with a minimum of risk if done correctlye and carefully.
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Let us think about this for a minute.

You are flying any aircraft with a starter that is designed into the type certificate and a "R" on the equipment list.

but the starter doesn't work.

tell me if that aircraft is airworthy.

I should have started a new thread for this, and the MODs can if they wish.
 
vontresc said:
Just as a reminder. During Airventure the VAA puts on a very good hand propping clinic. I stopped by last year and learned some very good tips. Remember it can be done with a minimum of risk if done correctlye and carefully.
Click to expand...

Last fall, after a partner left the master on overnight, I hand-propped our Ercoupe without difficulty...

...until the next day, when my back told me that I had bent it into a shape it was not happy about. I was in near-constant pain for the next month or so. Hand-propping a short airplane when you're 6' (and 51 years old, with a dicey back to begin with) is a good way to put yourself in traction.

Next time, I will sit in the plane and let HIM hand-prop it... :D
 
I continue to be amazed at things that used to be commonplace are now considered hazardous, dangerous and way out of bounds for all of us modern, "too stupid to know better" common man ... chalk up another one to litigation (if true)
 
Tom-D said:
Let us think about this for a minute.

You are flying any aircraft with a starter that is designed into the type certificate and a "R" on the equipment list.

but the starter doesn't work.

tell me if that aircraft is airworthy.
Click to expand...

Geez, talk about mixing two parts "can opener" with one part "can of worms"...this should be a fun discussion! :rolleyes:
 
Jay Honeck said:
Geez, talk about mixing two parts "can opener" with one part "can of worms"...this should be a fun discussion! :rolleyes:
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Yabut... it's fun to read, isn't it? :D
 
Tom-D said:
Let us think about this for a minute.

You are flying any aircraft with a starter that is designed into the type certificate and a "R" on the equipment list.

but the starter doesn't work.

tell me if that aircraft is airworthy.
Click to expand...

No one is going to notice a bad starter during a ramp check, so it doesn't matter.
 
Tom-D said:
Let us think about this for a minute.

You are flying any aircraft with a starter that is designed into the type certificate and a "R" on the equipment list.

but the starter doesn't work.

tell me if that aircraft is airworthy.

I should have started a new thread for this, and the MODs can if they wish.
Click to expand...

My 172H does NOT have an MEL. Yes, the plane IS airworthy. I've had to hand start a couple of times and a 182 (not fun, it's hard to throw the prop on a big engine). My battery got weak and didn't provide enough oomph to turn the engine over.

The biggest mistake most people make when hand propping is that they stand in front of the propeller. You really should stand behind the propeller.
 
slowjoe said:
My 172H does NOT have an MEL. Yes, the plane IS airworthy. I've had to hand start a couple of times and a 182 (not fun, it's hard to throw the prop on a big engine). My battery got weak and didn't provide enough oomph to turn the engine over.
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I think you'll find that the starter and battery are both required items for both your 172H and a C-182 in the aircraft certification documents. That would mean if either doesn't work properly, those airplanes are legally unairworthy. See 91.213(d) for more regarding aircraft with no approved MEL.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you'll find that the starter and battery are both required items for both your 172H and a C-182 in the aircraft certification documents. That would mean if either doesn't work properly, those airplanes are legally unairworthy. See 91.213(d) for more regarding aircraft with no approved MEL.
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Sorry, just reread 91.213(d). Nothing in there about starters. Go read it again. I have nothing provided by Cessna or the FAA concerning equipment in my plane. No POH, no MEL, nothing. Where do you think it refers to starters?
 
And, even if 91.213(d) does apply to the stater let's examine this scenario:

You land, and you have trouble restarting the engine - flooded, to lean, whatever. Generally just pilot error. Figuring that you flooded the engine you pull the mixture and blow the cylinders out. Now the battery doesn't have enough juice left to turn the engine over. The stater still works, but you just don't have enough battery. You're only option is to hand prop it.

You're telling me that you are REQUIRED to replace your battery? Don't think so!
 
Tom-D said:
but the starter doesn't work.

tell me if that aircraft is airworthy.
Click to expand...

That depends. Is there not enough juice in the battery? That isn't the starter that doesn't work. The airplane may not be "airworthy" but it isn't because of the starter.

Is there enough juice in the battery and the starter just won't spin? Then you MIGHT have a case.

But if is not dead, but does not have enough umph to spin the starter, how can one claim the airplane is not airworthy?
 
vontresc said:
Just as a reminder. During Airventure the VAA puts on a very good hand propping clinic. I stopped by last year and learned some very good tips. Remember it can be done with a minimum of risk if done correctlye and carefully.
Click to expand...

"Chuck Martin - a former FAA Inspector from Harrisburg, PA demonstrates the proper procedures to safely hand-prop Light Sport Aircraft."

http://aviationsafetyvideos.com/handprop.html

Should apply to real airplanes also.
 
Ron Levy said:
I think you'll find that the starter and battery are both required items for both your 172H and a C-182 in the aircraft certification documents. That would mean if either doesn't work properly, those airplanes are legally unairworthy.
Click to expand...

That is stretching it quite a bit. Just because a battery can't provide enough juice to properly spin the starter does not mean that either "don't work properly". Get the engine started, by whatever means possible, and the "problem" solves itself.

Now, if you can't get it started by any means, then by default the airplane is unairworthy but that is a moot point because the airplane can't get off the ground anyway.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is stretching it quite a bit. Just because a battery can't provide enough juice to properly spin the starter does not mean that either "don't work properly". Get the engine started, by whatever means possible, and the "problem" solves itself.

Now, if you can't get it started by any means, then by default the airplane is unairworthy but that is a moot point because the airplane can't get off the ground anyway.
Click to expand...

In any C-1?? series aircraft that has an alternator, when the battery is dead enough to NOT crank the engine it will also not excite the alternator and thus will not re-charge the battery.

ALL Cessna aircraft all the way back to the C-120 have equipment lists, all these lists have a "R" or "O" for each item installed on the aircraft. If you don't have a copy, how did your last IA determine what equipment was OEM and what was added later and what needed 337s ?

Maybe some of Ya'LL need my PPL file on what the FAA uses as a definition of airworthiness.

If you need it, e-mail me I'll send it, nc19143@comcast.net it is the teaching aid the FAA uses to tech A&P-IAs the meaning of airworthiness at the -IA renewal seminars.

If one of the MODs want to post it as a sticky, I'll send it to them too.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is stretching it quite a bit. Just because a battery can't provide enough juice to properly spin the starter does not mean that either "don't work properly". Get the engine started, by whatever means possible, and the "problem" solves itself.
Click to expand...

IMO, the airplane would be unairworthy if the battery has lost so much capacity (vs charge) that it can't reliably start the airplane because the battery wouldn't pass the capacity test. If the starter is defective and a starter is listed on the TCDS I'd have to say that makes the plane unairworthy as well.

Now, if you can't get it started by any means, then by default the airplane is unairworthy but that is a moot point because the airplane can't get off the ground anyway.
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So if it can't fly, it's unairworthy? :D
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That depends. Is there not enough juice in the battery? That isn't the starter that doesn't work. The airplane may not be "airworthy" but it isn't because of the starter.

Is there enough juice in the battery and the starter just won't spin? Then you MIGHT have a case.

But if is not dead, but does not have enough umph to spin the starter, how can one claim the airplane is not airworthy?
Click to expand...

The hole in that theory is you really don't know why it won't start.

Oh, you ran the battery down trying to start it. But you think You can hand prop it and get it going?

Oh you left the M/S on last week.

How do you know it will re-charge the battery?
 
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