Hand Flying

There are certainly some good examples of airline pilots being overwhelmed by technology and underwhelmed with the need to revert to basic airmanship in the process.

Air France 447 comes to mind, where eventually three pilots in the Airbus cockpit stared at accurate instrumentation and stalled the aircraft into the ocean starting at an altitude of 38,000 feet.
 
I hand fly 100% of the time... well... I use my feet, too... at least as much of the time...so maybe 50% hands, 50% feet... ?

I played piano by ear for a while, too, but had to stop. The headaches and bruises became too much to bear.
 
Even in a plane AP equipped, I use it at most 15% of the time, usually a lot less. In the last 30 hours of flying, in total I've turned the AP on maybe as much as 2 hours. Monday was solid IFR, as was Tuesday, I could have chosen to let it fly while in cruise, but instead I hand flew because I actually prefer it that way. If just droning along cross country for a couple of hours, I will sometimes let the AP fly for 20 or 30 minutes. This morning's hop was just a beautiful 25 minutes in VFR, I didn't even turn the GPS much less use the AP. My theory is that far too many have become overly reliant on nanny aids, be it AP, GPS, and other items. Look at this new trend to parachutes on some planes, they make me nervous for the simple reason, I think some ( not all ) will buy one of those planes, with this in mind...if they screw up and get in over their head because they are not really a good pilot, they can just pop the chute and stand a reasonable chance of survival.
 
luvflyin said:
Wonder if Boeing had a little input on this.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/faa-wants-action-on-declining-pilot-skills/
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I don't have direct experience, nor am I an airline pilot, but is there any truth to the sentiment that crashes due to lack of airmanship seem to happen more frequently in foreign countries than the U.S? AF447, Lion Air and Ethiopian 737 Max crashes, Asiana 214.. etc. Of course there are U.S examples as well, such as Colgan Air 3407, Comair 5191 and Eastern Airlines 401. On the other hand, Alaska 261 is a different example - the pilots never stopped flying the airplane, including inverted flight, until it hit the water.
 
sarangan said:
I don't have direct experience, nor am I an airline pilot, but is there any truth to the sentiment that crashes due to lack of airmanship seem to happen more frequently in foreign countries than the U.S? AF447, Lion Air and Ethiopian 737 Max crashes, Asiana 214.. etc. Of course there are U.S examples as well, such as Colgan Air 3407, Comair 5191 and Eastern Airlines 401. On the other hand, Alaska 261 is a different example - the pilots never stopped flying the airplane, including inverted flight, until it hit the water.
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Seems like you answered your own question. Colgan sticks in my mind on several levels.


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I’m thinking that “hand flying” is not one thing. Personally I’m very confident in my hand flying skills in VMC/VFR conditions. Precision handflying in the IMC/IFR context is never quite where I want it. I don’t think I’ve ever been able to fly to ATP standards and maintaining precision IFR proficiency requires constant practice (as does hands off single pilot button pushing ops). It’s not the standard stuff, its when ATC throws you a curve.

But frankly I just get bored and distracted doing straight and level when a button push gets me there without the effort. Maybe that’s the problem.


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I need to get off the AP a little while before the approach phase in actual, to sort of get my "feel" back, and focused in. Might not be necessary for a professional hand-flying approaches all the time? Maybe let the AP drive almost all the way, most of the time, and have no issue smoothly transitioning?
 
In the airline world most of us fly to roughly 10,000 feet or at least until the turns are done. We usually click off the auto pilot somewhere on final. What more do you want?? Hand flying endless hours straight & level at 35 thousand feet?
 
Kritchlow said:
In the airline world most of us fly to roughly 10,000 feet or at least until the turns are done. We usually click off the auto pilot somewhere on final. What more do you want?? Hand flying endless hours straight & level at 35 thousand feet?
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Yeah. ‘Knowing when to and being able to hand fly’ would be the long version of the thread title.
 
sarangan said:
I don't have direct experience, nor am I an airline pilot, but is there any truth to the sentiment that crashes due to lack of airmanship seem to happen more frequently in foreign countries than the U.S? AF447, Lion Air and Ethiopian 737 Max crashes, Asiana 214.. etc. Of course there are U.S examples as well, such as Colgan Air 3407, Comair 5191 and Eastern Airlines 401. On the other hand, Alaska 261 is a different example - the pilots never stopped flying the airplane, including inverted flight, until it hit the water.
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Your U. S. examples weren’t issues of the articles point. Autopilot was a factor in Eastern 401 though, the unintentional overriding of it. Yeah, the Alaska 261 guys worked the problem to the end.
 
I totally agree that all pilots should be able to manually fly their planes, especially when systems malfunction.

I wonder why we don’t hold drivers on the road to the same standard? Remember when the Prius would accelerate and caused crashes, but not one driver thought to put the car in neutral or turn it off? Toyota was blamed (rightfully, like Boeing), but no one ever suggested the driver should get more training. I don’t think that would be the case even if it were a city bus that malfunctioned.

Why the double-standard?
 
Adam Weiss said:
I totally agree that all pilots should be able to manually fly their planes, especially when systems malfunction.

I wonder why we don’t hold drivers on the road to the same standard? Remember when the Prius would accelerate and caused crashes, but not one driver thought to put the car in neutral or turn it off? Toyota was blamed (rightfully, like Boeing), but no one ever suggested the driver should get more training. I don’t think that would be the case even if it were a city bus that malfunctioned.

Why the double-standard?
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Caveman Society: Poor People Good, Rich people bad. Cars good. Planes Bad. No Mess with good stuffs. /caveman

Every single politician would be out of a job if people were required more or recurrent training for their "right" to drive.
 
EdFred said:
Caveman Society: Poor People Good, Rich people bad. Cars good. Planes Bad. No Mess with good stuffs. /caveman

Every single politician would be out of a job if people were required more or recurrent training for their "right" to drive.
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I would be all for annual driver tests, and medicals, to keep a driver's license current. Drivers are far worse than pilots, and they have nothing in place to make sure that they can drive competently.
 
Shuswap BC said:
I would be all for annual driver tests, and medicals, to keep a driver's license current. Drivers are far worse than pilots, and they have nothing in place to make sure that they can drive competently.
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Sure... for everyone else maybe. I’m not dealing with the DMV every year.
 
Just wait till federally mandated "driver assisted cruise control" and "automated following distance" become the law of the land. When technology fails, people will be unable to cope with it. And, 1 accident will create massive traffic jams that will throw entire metropolitan areas into complete gridlock.
 
DaleB said:
Sure... for everyone else maybe. I’m not dealing with the DMV every year.
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Designated instructors so you dont have to deal with them. And yes you pay them a fee.
 
EdFred said:
Designated instructors so you dont have to deal with them. And yes you pay them a fee.
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Spoken like a CFI. :) We'll just have to disagree on this. Anyone can drive well enough for the few minutes it takes to pass an exam, all they have to do is put the effing phone down. I'd prefer to see more than one cop covering half the city, and even a token effort made at enforcement of traffic laws. Around here, people drive like morons with impunity simply because they know they'll never get caught or ticketed for it... and I'm pretty sure it's not just around here, either.
 
DaleB said:
Spoken like a CFI. :) We'll just have to disagree on this. Anyone can drive well enough for the few minutes it takes to pass an exam, all they have to do is put the effing phone down. I'd prefer to see more than one cop covering half the city, and even a token effort made at enforcement of traffic laws. Around here, people drive like morons with impunity simply because they know they'll never get caught or ticketed for it... and I'm pretty sure it's not just around here, either.
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Ha. I just offered a free pinch hitter course to a spouse today. Agree on the cops. They only want the big tickets...reckless, dui, etc...
 
6 months max between flying with an instructor, that's what works for me.
 
I'm the kinda guy that likes to take the road less travelled, if I have time.

"Let's see where this road goes"

Once I'm back in the air, I might try darts and charts...

But, I wanna hand fly some more..

I couldn't do an airline gig...

Take all the fun out.

Sure, if you're going somewhere.. using GA as far as practical.. an AP would be useful.

But, an ATP not being able to hand fly seems fraught with bad consequences.

We've already seen someone tamper with aircraft systems "to get more overtime."

And, electro mechanical stuff can fail.

And, once in a lifetime, you might just have to land in the Hudson... Ya never know.
 
Shuswap BC said:
I would be all for annual driver tests, and medicals, to keep a driver's license current. Drivers are far worse than pilots, and they have nothing in place to make sure that they can drive competently.
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Hey Hey Hey Hey


*Unless you're a pilot*

We need to start adding that into text. Like, "Something something XXX You must comply with XXX rule XXX..... ......Unless.... You're a pilot and current."

Duh :cool:
 
wilkersk said:
Just wait till federally mandated "driver assisted cruise control" and "automated following distance" become the law of the land. When technology fails, people will be unable to cope with it. And, 1 accident will create massive traffic jams that will throw entire metropolitan areas into complete gridlock.
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And how will that be different than the way it is now?
 
Adam Weiss said:
Remember when the Prius would accelerate and caused crashes, but not one driver thought to put the car in neutral or turn it off?
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Yeah, that was absolutely crazy to me. Toyota took the high road there, but it wasn't even software related..it was floormats getting stuck! You have to remember that 99% of people are raging idiots and can't think for themselves, they need Dr Phil and Oprah to tell them how to think. Most people could be sinking on an open platform in the water and unless someone says "put this life vest on and swim to shore" they'll just sit there and drown.. like idiots

dbahn said:
overwhelmed by technology
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I mean... how? You used to require like 4 people to fly an airplane.. now one person can do it. I don't get this argument I often here with automation. It's surely different (don't call me Shirley), but just learn it and be trained different then. The Air France situation was poor CRM and not actively electing to fly the plane like you were taught in your first 20 hrs of instruction, pitch and power
upload_2019-11-20_17-28-32.png
they're both "complex" - one just does a lot more for you so when you suddenly have to do it yourself if you're not trained you're going to have a lot of trouble
 
Crashnburn said:
And how will that be different than the way it is now?
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Then, the rest of the world will experience, ...."LA".

LA-traffic-jam.jpg
 
Cute photo but heavily modified. Look at I-405 at Skirball on Google Earth (that photo is a bit south).
 
dbahn said:
There are certainly some good examples of airline pilots being overwhelmed by technology and underwhelmed with the need to revert to basic airmanship in the process.

Air France 447 comes to mind, where eventually three pilots in the Airbus cockpit stared at accurate instrumentation and stalled the aircraft into the ocean starting at an altitude of 38,000 feet.
Click to expand...

The Captain knew what he was doing on AF447. Unfortunately, he was trying to troubleshoot while a young guy held the nose pitch up without dual feedback...

sarangan said:
I don't have direct experience, nor am I an airline pilot, but is there any truth to the sentiment that crashes due to lack of airmanship seem to happen more frequently in foreign countries than the U.S? AF447, Lion Air and Ethiopian 737 Max crashes, Asiana 214.. etc. Of course there are U.S examples as well, such as Colgan Air 3407, Comair 5191 and Eastern Airlines 401. On the other hand, Alaska 261 is a different example - the pilots never stopped flying the airplane, including inverted flight, until it hit the water.
Click to expand...

The ET pilots weren't the ones at fault. They followed the proper procedures.

luvflyin said:
Your U. S. examples weren’t issues of the articles point. Autopilot was a factor in Eastern 401 though, the unintentional overriding of it. Yeah, the Alaska 261 guys worked the problem to the end.
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The AS261 pilots were absolute legends. It is so sad they are no longer with us. They damn near saved it.
 
I actually find the technology harder than hand flying. It’s more precise, but I think harder to plan. The technology figures everything, except it knows nothing. ATC gives you a speed and all the technology that figures the decent and speeds goes out the window. Actually makes the job harder.
 
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