Half of a Flight Review?

[Z06_Mir]

My friend just asked if I could get her husband current (he's out of BFR and practice) so he could rent from his local school. I'm positive the school wants to check him out again, and since I'm not their employee I couldn't do it in their airplane. No big deal. But I was wondering if I could do the ground portion of his BFR, sign it off as the ground for it and have the flight school complete the flying part with his rental checkout. Or does 1 CFI have to do the entire flight review?

 

[TMetzinger]

I think one CFI has to give the endorsement. I'm not saying it CAN'T be done, but I've never heard of it being done this way.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Last time, I got the ground part from a ground instructor and the air part from a flight instructor (same FBO).

 

[poadeleted20]

Neither instructor can sign the standard full flight review endorsement without conducting the entire review. What each instructor can do is sign an endorsement for the portion s/he completed. The FAA has accepted that in the past, and I see no reason they won't accept it in the future. The entries and endorsements would look like this:

Log Entry: Jan 13, 2014; Winston-Salem NC; 1.0 hours; review Part 91 general operating and flight rules, legal requirements for flight, [etc]

Endorsement: I certify that John Q. Pilot has completed the ground portion of a flight review IAW 14 CFR 61.56(a)(1) on Jan 13, 2014.

Both signed "Stanley Instructor, 12345678 CFI, exp 12/31/14"

Log entry: Jan 23, 2014; Cessna 172, N12345; KINT-Local; 1.0 hours; stalls, steep turns, slow flight, traffic patterns, takeoffs and landings.

Endorsement: I certify that John Q. Pilot has completed the flight portion of a flight review IAW 14 CFR 61.56(a)(2) on Jan 23, 2014.

Both signed "Fred Instructor, 23456789 CFI, exp 10/31/14"

 

[Blackhawk]

... or the pilot could do the FAA's flight review course through faasafety.gov and present it to the CFI doing the flight portion with prior coordination.

 

[TMetzinger]

... or the pilot could do the FAA's flight review course through faasafety.gov and present it to the CFI doing the flight portion with prior coordination.

Yep... no ground required. But technically not a flight review (so no flight review endorsement) but still meets the requirements when the WINGS phase is completed.

Thanks Ron, I wondered if the "two endorsements" would work.

 

[mcmanigle]

Thanks Ron, I wondered if the "two endorsements" would work.

Ground instructors are specifically allowed to provide "ground training required for [a recreational pilot and private pilot] flight review" (replace [] with "any" for advanced ground instructor). So there must be some proper way to split it, and two endorsements seems logical.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Neither instructor can sign the standard full flight review endorsement without conducting the entire review. What each instructor can do is sign an endorsement for the portion s/he completed. The FAA has accepted that in the past, and I see no reason they won't accept it in the future. The entries and endorsements would look like this:

Thanks Ron! That's exactly what I was looking for.

 

[Henning]

What's the point though?

 

[ClimbnSink]

Neither instructor can sign the standard full flight review endorsement without conducting the entire review. What each instructor can do is sign an endorsement for the portion s/he completed. The FAA has accepted that in the past, and I see no reason they won't accept it in the future. The entries and endorsements would look like this:

If the pilot has done a FIRC doesn't that count for the hour of ground then a instructor can sign off the FR with just an hour of flight instruction?

 

[poadeleted20]

What's the point though?

The point is that an FAA review of a logbook that doesn't contain the necessary documentation of the completion of whatever 61.56 requires in that pilot's specific situation could be bad for the pilot concerned. In addition, if the FAA sees a standard flight 61.56(a)-based review endorsement in some pilot's logbook without seeing the necessary ground training also in that logbook signed by that same instructor, the instructor who gave that endorsement will have some explaining to do -- either why s/he gave that endorsement without both flight and ground training as required by 61.56(a), or why s/he gave ground training without logging and signing it in the trainee's pilot logbook as required by 14 CFR 61.51 and 61.189.

 

[poadeleted20]

If the pilot has done a FIRC doesn't that count for the hour of ground then a instructor can sign off the FR with just an hour of flight instruction?

Not exactly. First, the FIRC doesn't "count for the hour of ground", 61.56(f) waives the requirement for that "hour of ground" stated in 61.51(a)(1). In that case, the standard endorsement out of AC 61-56, which references completion of a flight review per 61.56(a) (which includes both an hour of flight and an hour of ground) would be certifying completion of training not given by the endorsing instructor. That's why the endorsing instructor giving the flight portion of a flight review to someone for whom the ground portion is waived (e.g., by a FIRC per 61.56(f) or the FAA Wings flight review knowledge course) has to modify the endorsement out of AC 61-65 in the manner I described above so it reflects only completion of the flight portion per 61.56(a)(1), not the entire flight review called for in 61.56(a). Otherwise, the endorsing instructor is certifying that the pilot completed something s/he did not actually accomplish.

 

[Blackhawk]

Yep... no ground required. But technically not a flight review (so no flight review endorsement) but still meets the requirements when the WINGS phase is completed.

Thanks Ron, I wondered if the "two endorsements" would work.

No, you misunderstood. I don't see it in the catalog anymore but I believe there use to be a Flight Review course that a pilot could take. The pilot would print the course certificate and it would count as the ground portion of the flight review. They would then just need to do the flight portion, but the FR would still need to be signed off after the flight... so still a FR.

 

[Henning]

The point is that an FAA review of a logbook that doesn't contain the necessary documentation of the completion of whatever 61.56 requires in that pilot's specific situation could be bad for the pilot concerned. In addition, if the FAA sees a standard flight 61.56(a)-based review endorsement in some pilot's logbook without seeing the necessary ground training also in that logbook signed by that same instructor, the instructor who gave that endorsement will have some explaining to do -- either why s/he gave that endorsement without both flight and ground training as required by 61.56(a), or why s/he gave ground training without logging and signing it in the trainee's pilot logbook as required by 14 CFR 61.51 and 61.189.

No, what is the point of seeking the ground portion with an instructor not affiliated with the FBO/Flight School where one is checking out to be able to rent? I don't get why one would want to split it.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, you misunderstood. I don't see it in the catalog anymore but I believe there use to be a Flight Review course that a pilot could take. The pilot would print the course certificate and it would count as the ground portion of the flight review. They would then just need to do the flight portion, but the FR would still need to be signed off after the flight... so still a FR.

No can do. By regulation, if you sign the "standard" AC 61-65 endorsement referencing 14 CFR 61.56(a), the instructor must conduct the ground training required by subparagraph (a)(1). If the instructor only conducts the flight training required by subparagraph (a)(2), that's all the endorsement can say -- "the flight portion of a flight review required by 14 CFR 61.56(a)(2)," not "a flight review IAW 14 CFR 61.56(a)." Otherwise, you're certifying that the endorsee has completed training you didn't give and s/he didn't get.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, what is the point of seeking the ground portion with an instructor not affiliated with the FBO/Flight School where one is checking out to be able to rent? I don't get why one would want to split it.

There may be many reasons, including choosing to do the ground training online or having completed a FIRC. And not everyone doing a flight review is doing a checkout at the same time. Further, the ground training involved in a flight review may go well beyond what a flight school does for a local checkout, and if you have another way of doing that at lower cost, why not?

 

[Henning]

There may be many reasons, including choosing to do the ground training online or having completed a FIRC. And not everyone doing a flight review is doing a checkout at the same time. Further, the ground training involved in a flight review may go well beyond what a flight school does for a local checkout, and if you have another way of doing that at lower cost, why not?

I was referring to the OP in this thread.

 

[Z06_Mir]

No, what is the point of seeking the ground portion with an instructor not affiliated with the FBO/Flight School where one is checking out to be able to rent? I don't get why one would want to split it.

I was going to do the hour of ground as a favor to a close friend of mine. He is not current, lacking a current flight review, and money is tight. Since he rents from a school which I am not employed but I said I'd do the ground portion for nothing if it was legal to do so, then he could get recurrent with the school for his flight review and rental checkout.

 

[Henning]

I was going to do the hour of ground as a favor to a close friend of mine. He is not current, lacking a current flight review, and money is tight. Since he rents from a school which I am not employed but I said I'd do the ground portion for nothing if it was legal to do so, then he could get recurrent with the school for his flight review and rental checkout.

What, $35 is make or break? I guess you can do the double sign off deal, but that doesn't mean he's not going to need to do the hour of ground with the FBO to satisfy their checkout.

 

[TMetzinger]

No, you misunderstood. I don't see it in the catalog anymore but I believe there use to be a Flight Review course that a pilot could take. The pilot would print the course certificate and it would count as the ground portion of the flight review. They would then just need to do the flight portion, but the FR would still need to be signed off after the flight... so still a FR.

Ah, gotcha. I'm not sure that option still exists, but if you do find the course, let us know.

 

[silver-eagle]

I was going to do the hour of ground as a favor to a close friend of mine. He is not current, lacking a current flight review, and money is tight. Since he rents from a school which I am not employed but I said I'd do the ground portion for nothing if it was legal to do so, then he could get recurrent with the school for his flight review and rental checkout.

You could do the entire flight review, ground and air, and get him signed off to rent where you work. Once the flight review is complete, he can then take it over to the other place, get a check out in their aircraft, then he's good to go.
He may just not want to operate out of your school due to an implied conflict (ie, you just vouched for him).
With regard to WINGS, this requires 3 credits for online ground courses (which sometimes mean 6 courses) and 3 credits for flying, Generally, the credit equals one hour and several different types of flight operations. Generally speaking, you would be buying more than 3 hours in the air.

 

[Z06_Mir]

You could do the entire flight review, ground and air, and get him signed off to rent where you work. Once the flight review is complete, he can then take it over to the other place, get a check out in their aircraft, then he's good to go.
He may just not want to operate out of your school due to an implied conflict (ie, you just vouched for him).
With regard to WINGS, this requires 3 credits for online ground courses (which sometimes mean 6 courses) and 3 credits for flying, Generally, the credit equals one hour and several different types of flight operations. Generally speaking, you would be buying more than 3 hours in the air.

Unfortunately I don't work for a flight school. I'm an independent CFI and I instruct for people who own airplanes typically. I'm not insured to instruct in mine, and I don't plan on it anyway. If my friend had a little more time and kept current regularly I might do a hp/complex for him, but it would take a lot more time (money) than he has to spend. But I think it would take ~5 hours in the air to get him comfortable with the airplane and the sped at which things come in it.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Why don't you informally prep him as you would for a FR to help insure he doesn't burn over an hour on the ground with the FBOs CFI.

 

[hook_dupin]

Or go to the FBO and have them put you on contract. Everybody wins.

"Here's Joe. Joe needs about 5 hours of flying to get a BFR sign off from me. You have simple trainers and a flight school policy. I don't see myself as taking work from your existing pool of CFIs. Instead, I'll bring additional flying in the door who will go on to further fly your aircraft."

 

[EdFred]

Or you rent the plane and don't give any official instruction until you leave the premises and talk about the flight 2 hours later over lunch. Oh, and leave any and all logbooks at home, so if something goes wrong in the airplane, there's no way it's going to look like instruction.

Your owners insurance will cover you if you prang the plane, and what's the worst that happens if you have an uneventful flight and they find out you were giving instruction? You won't be able to rent there again? Oh no, the horror, you own half a plane anyway!

When did everyone turn into a bunch of whiny *******?

 

[hook_dupin]

Or you rent the plane and don't give any official instruction until you leave the premises and talk about the flight 2 hours later over lunch.

The FBO probably won't let the airplane go out the door without somebody getting checked out in it. Hopefully, Open Airplane solves this problem.

Better: find a third party friend with a Cherokee, Skyhawk, or something simple who has an empty beer fridge that needs filling.

 

[Henning]

The FBO probably won't let the airplane go out the door without somebody getting checked out in it. Hopefully, Open Airplane solves this problem.

Better: find a third party friend with a Cherokee, Skyhawk, or something simple who has an empty beer fridge that needs filling.

All the Open Airplane participating FBOs I found are the highest priced ones in the area though.

 

[hook_dupin]

All the Open Airplane participating FBOs I found are the highest priced ones in the area though.

I think that's the sell: an hour at an Open Airplane FBO is still cheaper than a FBO checkout, then that hour.

If you travel a fair bit, and want to update your spam can currency while on the road, Open Airplane makes sense.

 

[danhagan]

... or the pilot could do the FAA's flight review course through faasafety.gov and present it to the CFI doing the flight portion with prior coordination.

Winner! This is how my ground was conducted on my last flight review.