Gyripane...??

Kritchlow

Kritchlow

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Kritchlow
My local airport offers training in gyrocopter/gyroplane/autogyro or whatever you want to call it. It looks like a blast!!!

Thoughts on safety, or other opinions appreciated.

Waffling on ofI should do it for fun, as I think a Sport add on can be done without a checkride. Is there any need to go beyond sport level of just for fun?

Most important is safety. I have read in recent years it is more safe.

Thoughts??
 

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Sport Pilot-level privileges seem reasonable to me...if you ever decide you need more, it should be a pretty quick upgrade.
 
The modern designs are very safe. I have a friend who instructs in them at our airport. I don't like the idea of spending that much money on one, but I do enjoy riding in them.

Air-to-Air Magni Gyros

Marriage Proposal, which turned into a very successful marriage with two beautiful kids!
 
Looks like a ton of fun. I looked into them a while back. Seemed quite safe as long as you had proper rotor speed prior to rotation. Otherwise they can roll onto their side. That was the common accident I had seen in my research. Price is kinda high but all light sports are pricey vs a 65 yr old tin can like I fly.
 
They went through a phase where a lack of training and design by eye led to a poor safety record. The modern designs are pretty safe.

They’re a blast to fly. Even if you don’t plan on getting the rating, flying one is fun.

The real issue (like seaplanes and tail wheel in many cases) is that once you get the rating you kind of need to own one to fly it (most are E-AB and aren’t rented out) and in some cases you need to own one to get the rating (many places won’t let you solo their machine).
 
Not the easiest rating. Only a couple places flying the things, only a couple makers. I don't even know if there are any more kits to make an experimental gyrocopter.
 
steingar said:
Not the easiest rating. Only a couple places flying the things, only a couple makers. I don't even know if there are any more kits to make an experimental gyrocopter.
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There are a quite a few places in Texas and Florida to train and quite a few manufacturers. They're all experimental. Magni Gyros, AutoGyro are the leaders as far as I know. I think my local airport should be called a gyroport sometimes there are so many around here.
 
I'd do it. Have been daydreaming about them for quite a while myself.... Seems like a more affordable solution to local fun fair weather flying than a "real" plane.....
 
I really like the Cavalon, https://www.auto-gyro.com/en/Gyroplane/AutoGyro-Models/Cavalon/ , and I've looked over them at several air shows during the last few years. But there's no way for two people to take a trip in it. Less luggage space than a motorcycle. If there were a good way to fit my wife plus a couple of bags I'd be a lot more interested.

But they sure look like fun!
 
Lowflynjack said:
There are a quite a few places in Texas and Florida to train and quite a few manufacturers. They're all experimental. Magni Gyros, AutoGyro are the leaders as far as I know. I think my local airport should be called a gyroport sometimes there are so many around here.
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Tons of 'em at W29 too.
 
Kritchlow said:
My local airport offers training in gyrocopter/gyroplane/autogyro or whatever you want to call it. It looks like a blast!!!

Thoughts on safety, or other opinions appreciated.

Waffling on ofI should do it for fun, as I think a Sport add on can be done without a checkride. Is there any need to go beyond sport level of just for fun?

Most important is safety. I have read in recent years it is more safe.

Thoughts??
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A Sport Pilot Gyroplane rating still requires a proficiency check ride with a different CFI than your primary instructor.

For an add-on there is no knowledge test and no specific hours or solo time required.

In my experience xcept for takeoff and landing a fixed wing pilot has most of the skills required to fly safely.

Many mishaps are caused by forgetting to manage the rotor.

Good flight instruction is important to safety.

The experience is very different than flying a fixed wing aircraft and trying to compare a gyroplane to a fixed wing is pointless.

I teach most fixed wing pilots to take off and land with less than two hours of dual and that is part of the fun. The air work is pretty straight forward.
 
Half Fast said:
I really like the Cavalon, https://www.auto-gyro.com/en/Gyroplane/AutoGyro-Models/Cavalon/ , and I've looked over them at several air shows during the last few years. But there's no way for two people to take a trip in it. Less luggage space than a motorcycle. If there were a good way to fit my wife plus a couple of bags I'd be a lot more interested.

But they sure look like fun!
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A Cavalon has enough room for two garment bags behind the seats.

I was good for a week and with my wife three days was still pleasant.
 
Lowflynjack said:
There are a quite a few places in Texas and Florida to train and quite a few manufacturers. They're all experimental. Magni Gyros, AutoGyro are the leaders as far as I know. I think my local airport should be called a gyroport sometimes there are so many around here.
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So there are places in two states in the whole country. New examples are a hundred thousand dollars, and old used experimental examples aren't what I'd call easy to come by, and many are downright dangerous. Like I said, not the easiest rating. Not much point in getting it if you can never again fly one of the things.
 
steingar said:
So there are places in two states in the whole country. New examples are a hundred thousand dollars, and old used experimental examples aren't what I'd call easy to come by, and many are downright dangerous. Like I said, not the easiest rating. Not much point in getting it if you can never again fly one of the things.
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I know of a few in Texas and Florida, but there is training all over the US. You're acting like it's next to impossible to get training. You can go to AutoGyro's website and see locations for training in quite a few states and that's just one supplier. The OP mostly wanted to discuss safety and they are safe. Old experimental examples probably aren't as safe. Yes, new ones are $80-$100K. That's the biggest reason I wouldn't buy one!
 
I actually tried to get the sport pilot gyroplane cert two weeks ago. I had hoped to do it in a 5 day, 2 lessons a day, schedule but I came up a little short. Basic air maneuvers are pretty easy and I knocked them out in an hour or two. Takeoffs kicked my butt. As someone mentioned, you have to manage the rotor making sure you get enough RPM for takeoff before disengaging the pre-rotator, then releasing the brake, and adding power (but not full power). All that happens in about 2 seconds. Then you have to manage acceleration and use really small adjustments to get the nose wheel a few inches off the ground and get into a stable position to apply full power. During this, you have to add a lot of rudder to compensate for the added p factor. Then you have to hold the aircraft in ground effect until you get enough air speed to climb out. My last flight I did 5 clean take offs so I declared victory and went home. Tail wheel instruction helped a bit in terms of managing the stick.

Landings are easier. I kept letting the nose wheel drop too soon but they were otherwise safe. When you do it right...pull back the rotor when you are still on two wheels, the rotor acts as a big drag break and you can stop in an area the size of a basketball court. I’m still about 4-8 hours away from getting the cert but I’m not sure I’ll finish. I did this on lark and it was a good experience but unless I buy one, I don’t know if I’d ever get a chance to fly one again.

They’re safe, maybe even a lot safer than fixed wing, after proper training and some experience. The dreaded rotor flap (unloading the rotor by going negative g or violent maneuvers) isn’t a much as problem as I feared but if it happens, it’s bad and happens fast. I’m told most accidents happen on take off but usually result in broken aircraft and not people.

I think for missions like ranching or oil field operations, these are ideal aircraft. Not cheap though. One of the Cavalon’s I saw sold for over $130k. One person I talked to said that it had helicopter-like performance for a 1/3 the cost. Another way to look at it is that it has C150 like performance for 3 times the cost. It only cruises at about 110 at best.

On the last flight, for the landing, the instructor pulled power to idle with the gyro 600 feet over the numbers. We did a evaluator-like descent to about 50 feet over the runway, then he dropped the nose, added a little power and we landed within a 100 feet. That’s at least something a C150 can’t do.
 
Thought this post was going to be about the guy in pattern with me last weekend. seemed like he did a two mile final from the downwind and then approached at about 30mph where a line of airplanes stacked up behind him waiting for him to land and clear the runway. Gyropain?.

They look like a lot of fun, this one just needed to learn how to fly a tighter pattern or other techniques to fit in with traffic better.

Brian
 
Landings shouldn’t be the big issue except for the pattern altitude which should be 600 AGL, but pretty tight. I think take offs are harder on traffic flow since the gyro has to sit on the runway while the rotor spools up and it has to be fairly gradual. It usually took a minute or two.
 
Rppelleg said:
I actually tried to get the sport pilot gyroplane cert two weeks ago. I had hoped to do it in a 5 day, 2 lessons a day, schedule but I came up a little short. Basic air maneuvers are pretty easy and I knocked them out in an hour or two. Takeoffs kicked my butt. As someone mentioned, you have to manage the rotor making sure you get enough RPM for takeoff before disengaging the pre-rotator, then releasing the brake, and adding power (but not full power). All that happens in about 2 seconds. Then you have to manage acceleration and use really small adjustments to get the nose wheel a few inches off the ground and get into a stable position to apply full power. During this, you have to add a lot of rudder to compensate for the added p factor. Then you have to hold the aircraft in ground effect until you get enough air speed to climb out. My last flight I did 5 clean take offs so I declared victory and went home. Tail wheel instruction helped a bit in terms of managing the stick.

Landings are easier. I kept letting the nose wheel drop too soon but they were otherwise safe. When you do it right...pull back the rotor when you are still on two wheels, the rotor acts as a big drag break and you can stop in an area the size of a basketball court. I’m still about 4-8 hours away from getting the cert but I’m not sure I’ll finish. I did this on lark and it was a good experience but unless I buy one, I don’t know if I’d ever get a chance to fly one again.

They’re safe, maybe even a lot safer than fixed wing, after proper training and some experience. The dreaded rotor flap (unloading the rotor by going negative g or violent maneuvers) isn’t a much as problem as I feared but if it happens, it’s bad and happens fast. I’m told most accidents happen on take off but usually result in broken aircraft and not people.

I think for missions like ranching or oil field operations, these are ideal aircraft. Not cheap though. One of the Cavalon’s I saw sold for over $130k. One person I talked to said that it had helicopter-like performance for a 1/3 the cost. Another way to look at it is that it has C150 like performance for 3 times the cost. It only cruises at about 110 at best.

On the last flight, for the landing, the instructor pulled power to idle with the gyro 600 feet over the numbers. We did a evaluator-like descent to about 50 feet over the runway, then he dropped the nose, added a little power and we landed within a 100 feet. That’s at least something a C150 can’t do.
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Interesting write up. Curious, can turbulence play a part in this negative g rotor thing?
 
I'd do it, there are a few people around here who fly them regularly, they look like a blast.
 
I think Cirrus should make one with a chute.
 
Rppelleg said:
I think for missions like ranching or oil field operations, these are ideal aircraft. Not cheap though. One of the Cavalon’s I saw sold for over $130k. One person I talked to said that it had helicopter-like performance for a 1/3 the cost. Another way to look at it is that it has C150 like performance for 3 times the cost. It only cruises at about 110 at best.
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Were it a 60 year old aircraft I'd agree. But comparing a brand new aircraft to one from yesteryear is bollox. Compare one to a modern LSA and it starts to look reasonable. Not that I can afford a modern LSA any...
 
Lowflynjack said:
[...] They're all experimental. Magni Gyros, AutoGyro are the leaders as far as I know. I think my local airport should be called a gyroport sometimes there are so many around here.
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I think it is important to note that this doesn't mean 'homebuilt'. Going 'experimental' is a work-around for the manufacturers to sell these aircraft in the US market, as our LSA regulations do not recognize gyrocopters. Everywhere else in the world, they are sold as factory built aircraft.
 
Kritchlow said:
Interesting write up. Curious, can turbulence play a part in this negative g rotor thing?
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In my opinion based on my flying experience gyroplanes manage turbulence well.

A sustained low g maneuver will slow the rotor; potentially creating control issues.

I have flown with a G meter practicing for an air show. Even the most radical zoom climb with a low g parabolic exit did not create negative Gs. The least I saw was .6gs and the highest I saw was 2.2gs. .6 gs is low enough to slow the rotor if it is sustained.

In my opinion a low G event that leads to low rotor rpm and a loss of control is usually from pilot induced oscillations, a thrust line well above the center of gravity, an inadequate horizontal stabilizer volume and maximum power.

I feel this is both a training and design issue.

There are certain maneuvers that may lead to a reduced rotor rpm but as long as the maneuver is not sustained it does not lead to loss of control.

I fly and instruct out of Santa Maria, CA and have flown in 50kt gusting winds without difficulties although my typical wind limit at SMX is thirty five knots with a ten knot gust spread.

I have experienced a twenty knot wind shear many times without any difficulties.

Gyroplanes are poorly understood and often technical fantasies are created with little basis in reality.
 

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I have about 250 hours in Magni M-16s, most of it in one I built in Milan 3 years ago. I also got my Commercial Rotorcraft Gyro, not because it's useful but because I wanted to hold myself to a higher level of proficiency.

Gyros are a LOT of fun and are safe with proper training. The one shown in the OP is a Xenon. There are other enclosed side-by-sides but, to me, they miss the real point of a gyro, which is more like a motorcycle for flying (and to me, the enclosed ones are like Smart cars). There's a world of difference between an enclosed side-by-side and the front of an open tandem, especially down low.

They're not helicopters and they're not fixed-wings: they're gyros. Even experienced gyro pilots get bitten thinking they're like fixed-wings on takeoff (and don't properly manage the rotor, such as ensuring it's spinning fast enough for the forward speed before pushing the stick forward) or helicopters on landing (and don't properly manage the rotor, such as not carrying enough forward speed and then pulling back, trying to land with zero roll; you can get away with that often but will likely get bit one day). They can't hover any more than a Cub facing into a 30kt wind can "hover" and they need more runway to take off than to land, so short landings are more for fun/show than practicality.

They're awesome for gusty days. I used to fly my Piper over to where Lowflynjack is, to take lessons from his hangar neighbor and would get tossed around on a warm TX day. In the gyro, I thought the wind had calmed down - until I went to fly back home and got tossed around in my Piper again. In fact, I started off wanting "low and slow" and was looking at Cubs but things in that category really get bounced around on a bumpy day. Not gyros.

The community's so small it's hard sometimes to see that there are actually two populations blended into one: it's as if fixed-wing Ultralights and LSAs were lumped together. And in that regard, talking about price, it's more accurate to compare the cost of a new gyro with the cost of a new LSA rather than a 35-year-old Piper or Cessna. A new, enclosed gyro with a Rotax 914 is in the $100-110,000 range; less than similarly-equipped LSAs. An open one with a 912 is around $80,000. Both will cruise in the 80kt range. Not as fast as a comparable LSA but that's not what they're made for. Flying above 2,000AGL is almost unsettling in an open gyro; most of my time is at or (well) below 1,000AGL.

I was trained to do pattern work at 500ft, like a helicopter, and that works OK where Lowflynjack is. Everywhere else I fly standard patterns and keep my speed up as much as I can. I'm more like a Cub than a helo in the pattern.

Right now the problem is they're kinda like seaplanes: you can get the dual someplace but finding somewhere you can rent one to go solo is tough. Hopefully with several of them getting approved in the Primary category in the near future, this'll get better. They're apparently much more popular than fixed wing in Europe.

I did a LOT of homework before choosing my Magni. I would definitely go with it again. There are other good brands out there but Magni has done a great job engineering out as much pilot buffoonery as possible. Plus it looks less tub-like to me than most others. And, of course, it's an excuse to go to Italy to build it (for no additional cost except the flights and lodging).

In any case, if you get the chance, go for a ride. My first ride was at OSH over in the Ultralight area, where I first met the guy near Lowflynjack. Many of the big brands do demo flights there that week.
 
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