Grounding yourself vs. Sucking it up

Sazzy

Sazzy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Sazzy
So, this week was insanely windy, to the point where my instructor at RAC didnt find it to be appropriate or productive to go up.

Me, jonesing to fly, called up Skill and scheduled a flight in the 152, hoping that a heavier plane might fare better. But after talking with the Skill instructor, I learned that nothing I was hoping to focus on would really be worth while on a day like today.

I promise, I have a point here...

The contents of my wallet are not conducive to being a flight student. I feel like I need to be very careful about choosing when I fly and when I don't, to make the most of my money. Did I make the right decision not to fly? I feel that it is important to be able to fly in super turbulent conditions, should I ever get caught by surprise by the ever-bipolar weather that is inherent to the Chicagoland area, but at the same time, if I am not able to learn or accomplish much during a lesson due to weather...have i wasted my money?
 
I don’t think any money is wasted if you can learn something from the flight. You definitely need to experience some windy and sporty conditions if you’re not used to them.

As someone who flies a 152 on a regular basis, I can attest to the fact that it becomes a kite in windy conditions (18-20kts). Go out and fly in those conditions, it WILL be money well spent!
 
In a case like this you need to learn to trust your instructor's judgment. They've likely tried teaching in similar conditions in the past and found it to be fruitless. Sometimes the best lesson taught/learned is that we can't always fly, even if we really want to.

If money is a problem consider this. How annoyed would you be with your instructor if you went up in the weather you described and didn't learn much/anything? Then we might be seeing a post about how your instructor is milking you and they're just out to get your money and earn flight time. ;)
 
If a 152 is the heavier plane, it would get bumped around pretty good in turbulence. I once took off in a 182 into a sigmet for turbulence for a “fun flight” and quickly turned around after getting bounced around pretty good after climbing into the sigmet area.

What is your definition of insanely windy? Was it a crosswind of 25+ knots? Some of the smaller planes don’t have enough rudder authority to land well with a strong crosswind.

What stage are you at in your training? It’s likely that an instructor would prefer to go up in strong crosswinds/gusts with someone further along that has demonstrated excellent proficiency with gusty crosswinds before.
 
9 kt gusting at 26, of course in the heat of the middle of the afternoon. So, I do feel better knowing that my instructor was honest with me about what little, if anything, could have been accomplished
 
Sazzy said:
9 kt gusting at 26, of course in the heat of the middle of the afternoon. So, I do feel better knowing that my instructor was honest with me about what little, if anything, could have been accomplished
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You might have better luck trying to schedule lessons at times other than mid afternoon.
 
mondtster said:
In a case like this you need to learn to trust your instructor's judgment.
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It depends on the CFI's experience level...

Once I got my cert, the only time I called my CFI was on "insanely windy" days. I think it paid off. I've never been caught in anything I can't handle. PS - He is a 7,000+ hr pilot.
 
Somedudeintn said:
What is your definition of insanely windy? Was it a crosswind of 25+ knots? Some of the smaller planes don’t have enough rudder authority to land well with a strong crosswind.

What stage are you at in your training? It’s likely that an instructor would prefer to go up in strong crosswinds/gusts with someone further along that has demonstrated excellent proficiency with gusty crosswinds before.
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I'm only a little over 20 hours along, and yes, there was a crosswind gusting up to 26 variable between 220 and 280. So I could imagine that my instructor may have helped ke make a better choice.
 
Flocker said:
It depends on the CFI's experience level...
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Even the least experienced instructor is more experienced than a student pilot. But yes there are various comfort and experience levels.
 
Wow I don’t think I’ve ever even seen gusts that high here in the southeast outside of a major weather event.
 
Sazzy said:
Lol then I need a different job
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You absolutely can't do early mornings or later evenings? Unless a person has two jobs I have a hard time thinking that both those time slots are taken but not mid afternoon.
 
9G26? I'd stay on the ground. Certainly would as a student pilot. There's "sporty", then there's miserable.
 
mondtster said:
You absolutely can't do early mornings or later evenings? Unless a person has two jobs I have a hard time thinking that both those time slots are taken but not mid afternoon.
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Well it's not just all about my schedule...it's hard to fly when there are no planes or instructors open.
 
The 152 is the heavier plane!?? What the light one?
I think when you have some more hours under your belt there is something to learn in tough winds and weather. But this early on your just going to get your head kicked In.
I fly a 182 and I have limits that I wouldn’t be practicing landings in those gusts. I live in NePA and we get our fair share of bumps.
 
Well, yes, compared to the CTLS I've been in for the past several months, going back to the 152 is like getting into a Ford Bronco after driving a Honda civic. But yes, I'm glad I opted for waiting for a calmer day to spend my money on a more productive lesson.
 
Sazzy said:
Well, yes, compared to the CTLS I've been in for the past several months, going back to the 152 is like getting into a Ford Bronco after driving a Honda civic. But yes, I'm glad I opted for waiting for a calmer day to spend my money on a more productive lesson.
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A 172 must be like an F350 than! :rofl:
 
If its too crazy and you happen to bend the plane, be aware there is the possibility of deductible and\or subrogation.
I only mention that because you mentioned your wallet..
Local guy here is being subrogated against because of an accident he had while renting a plane. He's probably in it for about 50,000.
 
Sazzy said:
9 kt gusting at 26, of course in the heat of the middle of the afternoon. So, I do feel better knowing that my instructor was honest with me about what little, if anything, could have been accomplished
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If practicing maneuvers (ground reference), only a steady wind would be acceptable. Steep turns with that gust factor and thermals will definitely not be fun (BTDT here in the SW in 100* mid afternoon).

The 152 has a direct 12 knot crosswind "recommendation" ... yes it's good to practice with the instructor landing in higher winds ... my check ride the "best" number was a crosswind 15 knots. Greased all the landings ... he asked for an additional circuit as he needed to see a go-around and figured ONE of the landings would have necessitated a go -around, but didn't.
 
Sazzy said:
9 kt gusting at 26, of course in the heat of the middle of the afternoon. So, I do feel better knowing that my instructor was honest with me about what little, if anything, could have been accomplished
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My instructor and I went up in 14k gusting 28k about 15 hours in. The weather wasn't quite that bad when we departed but built quickly. It was not a pleasant experience, we simply hopped to a close airport and did 5-6 touch and before packing it in. While we didn't do anything great in traditional instruction, it did give me a great confidence boost in being able to get the A/C safely on the ground in weather that would have really scared me before. I know enough now not to take off in weather like that, but I also know I could get us down if caught in an emergency. Im glad we went up that day.

That was in a 172, gusts of 26 from 9 would be another level in a 152 I would guess.
 
I will just note that 2 different CFIs at different airports (about 15 NM apart) suggested you take a pass.

I say fly another day.

ETA: Flew back today LGA - ORD on a United 737-700. I was in seat 29C . . . We got jostled around pretty good around 6PM tonight.
 
Skyrys62 said:
If its too crazy and you happen to bend the plane, be aware there is the possibility of deductible and\or subrogation.
I only mention that because you mentioned your wallet..
Local guy here is being subrogated against because of an accident he had while renting a plane. He's probably in it for about 50,000.
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What happened? I assume the insurance company found him to be negligent?
 
I love flying the 150/152 on windy days. They handle so easy its much less physical work than say a 200 series Cessna. How graceful the landings are is all luck. I've had kinda crappy approaches turn out perfect and tame approaches turn into choppy go-arounds.
 
Ryanb said:
What happened? I assume the insurance company found him to be negligent?
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He geared up a Cutlass.
EDIT: Here is actual findings:
The pilot of the retractable landing gear-equipped airplane reported that, during approach, he noticed he was a little high, so he reduced power to idle and heard an alert horn. He quickly scanned the engine gauges and observed that the manifold pressure gauge was "pegged at the bottom with no indication". He considered performing a go around but decided to land and assess the situation on the ground. The pilot landed the airplane with the landing gear retracted. The pilot added that he did not see the landing gear position light because his iPad sitting on the yoke blocked his view. He added that leading up to the approach and landing, the flight was fast paced, and he felt rushed, which attributed to him assuming he was in his "typical" fixed landing gear airplane. The airplane sustained substantial damage to the fuselage. The pilot reported that there were no preaccident mechanical failures or malfunctions with the airplane that would have precluded normal operation.

Again, I only mentioned due to the financial concerns.
From what I'm learning, one should check the insurance policy of the place they rent from, and insure yourself accordingly...or run the risks.

My main question is, if you take a plane out in x-wind that is above the planes rating (POH) could the insurance company deny coverage?
What if the renter is a student?
Could they be liable if they allow a student to fly in high winds and the student gets hurt or worse?

Just thinking....
 
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It is worthwhile flying with an instructor in gusty crosswind conditions to learn how to handle things when you are faced with it in the future. I would NOT do that solo as a student until you are competent and confident in this type of wind condition. If your instructor is not too enthusiastic about flying with you at this point in gusty crosswinds, you should trust their judgement.

Having said that, I did a lot of training in a C152 in wild and woolly crosswinds, which are common at my home field. Not only are there many days 10G20 or so, it is always nearly across the runway and burbles over a 500 foot ridge the length of and west of the airport. Add a partial treeline, to boot, and it can be a handful. Watching transients land on 35 on windy days is popcorn sport at our field. Thankfully, my instructor flew with me many times during primary training in these conditions until managing them became routine. There was a lot of sweating blood through my palms to get there! If I couldn't manage these kinds of conditions, I wouldn't fly very much, as strong westerly winds are the rule in 3 of 4 seasons here in CNY.
 
Last week I cancelled a flight, winds were 15G26, and about 10-20 deg off the rwy. There was pretty heavy turbulence all the way up to at least 4500 AGL. I was going to take a newbie on a fun flight, but those kind of conditions aren't fun and might have scared him away.

I ended up talking to a CFI buddy for a while, we discussed the benefits of a student flying in conditions like that:

My thoughts: as a student, those conditions are challenging and need to be experienced. BUT...as a student, you don't really learn anything other than how much un-fun it is and it takes away lesson time that could have been used towards meeting the PP checkride requirements.

His thoughts: cancel the flight, there's nothing but frustration ahead for the student and it's a waste of lesson money.

Both of us: challenging yourself to heavy conditions so you can expand your personal minimums is always a good idea. But as a student, especially on a budget, you really need to focus on training to get past the checkride. If you have extra time and money during training, or if you want to do it after the checkride, contact your CFI and say, "I want to schedule a lesson for when conditions are crappy, turbulent, and a day when everyone else stays on the ground. I need to know what it's like and how to handle it if I have to." That's a good lesson, but it's "extracurricular" and optional.
 
Skyrys62 said:
He geared up a Cutlass.
No findings yet, just hearsay...but there is subrogation for sure.
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Hopefully they’ve determined whether or not he was negligent before subrogating against him. (ie., his failure to lower the gear and not just a problem with the gear itself.)
 
didn't want to hijack the thread... but not bad stuff to share on behalf of the danger factor I reckon.
Ryanb said:
Hopefully they’ve determined whether or not he was negligent before subrogating against him. (ie., his failure to lower the gear and not just a problem with the gear itself.)
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I believe that is the thought. He didn't put the gear down.
It's speculation at this point if you ask me, because the plane is totaled. If he admits it then I'm sure they will get what they want. If he says it wouldn't come down, then they have to prove him wrong I guess.
According to the owner there are gear warnings with rpm and flaps extended.
Sad to hear either way. I liked flying it a little better than the other 172's.
 
I’d go up in it if you’ve already had a few landings under your belt. If we are just learning landings I’d wait for a calmer day. There are diminishing returns when it comes to gusty weather. It’s pretty easy to tell if the student is or isn’t learning.
 
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