Ground School Instructor

[AggieMike88]

I'm noodling with the idea of obtaining the rating to teach private pilot ground school.

Can someone lay out the steps necessary to obtain this rating?

Thanks!

 

[Charley 2]

Study, take the writtens for both FOI and AGI, fill out the IACRA, take the written results to your local FSDO to complete the paperwork.

 

[dmspilot]

Charley 2 has it right, although to teach private pilots, you can take the Basic Ground Instructor (BGI) test instead of AGI. However, the Advanced really isn't much more difficult. I recommend you just take the AGI right off the bat.

And your score doesn't matter as long as you pass.

 

[ja_user]

And get a signoff before you start teaching, from a cfi

 

[marcoseddi]

what's advanced compared to regular mean?

 

[dmspilot]

what's advanced compared to regular mean?

Basic can teach and give signoffs for sport, recreational, and private. Advanced can teach and give signoffs for any certificate or rating (e.g. commercial), except for an instrument rating. There's an instrument ground instructor rating for that.

 

[AggieMike88]

Study, take the writtens for both FOI and AGI, fill out the IACRA, take the written results to your local FSDO to complete the paperwork.

Is the study material the same as PPL?

Where do I take the exams?

 

[n12365]

And get a signoff before you start teaching, from a cfi

Why would you need that?

 

[Brad Z]

Why would you need that?

14 CFR 61.217(d)

 

[jpower]

Where do I take the exams?

Same place you take any exam--a LaserGrade or CATS place.

 

[n12365]

14 CFR 61.217(d)

That is really interesting. I knew there was a 12 month recency of experience requirement, but I didn't realize obtaining the rating doesn't reset the clock. Also, it looks like you can use either a ground instructor or a flight instructor for the signoff.

Ryan

 

[DaytonaLynn]

That's interesting, I have been toying with the same pathway.

 

[Dr. O]

It's like house training a new puppy.
A rolled up newspaper comes in handy.

 

[poadeleted20]

Study, take the writtens for both FOI and AGI, fill out the IACRA, take the written results to your local FSDO to complete the paperwork.

Missed a step -- making an appointment to visit the FSDO. Don't show up without one these days or you'll be sent away without whatever it was you wanted.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is the study material the same as PPL?

For Basic, yes. For Advanced, it's essentially the Commercial test. For Instrument, it's essentially the IR test.

Where do I take the exams?

Anywhere they give FAA written tests, like CATS or Lasergrade.

 

[poadeleted20]

That is really interesting. I knew there was a 12 month recency of experience requirement, but I didn't realize obtaining the rating doesn't reset the clock. Also, it looks like you can use either a ground instructor or a flight instructor for the signoff.

Ryan

The question was asked/answered by the Chief Counsel. Yes, a new GI needs the endorsement.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...9/metzinger - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
I suspect the Flight Standards folks with whom the Chief Counsel coordinated on this didn't like the idea of someone just passing two written tests and being thus empowered to teach and certify without someone seeing if that person can actually do it, not just pass a written test.

 

[Charley 2]

Is the study material the same as PPL?

Where do I take the exams?

Study the same material as for the flight instructor airplane and fundamentals of instruction. Study guides available from Gliems, and others. No instructor signoff is required to take the exams and they are given at Cats and Laser Grade testing facilities. $150/ each. 70% is passing.

 

[moonshine]

The question was asked/answered by the Chief Counsel. Yes, a new GI needs the endorsement.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...9/metzinger - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
I suspect the Flight Standards folks with whom the Chief Counsel coordinated on this didn't like the idea of someone just passing two written tests and being thus empowered to teach and certify without someone seeing if that person can actually do it, not just pass a written test.

Interestingly enough, Orlando FSDO disagrees. Asked for clarification while getting the AGI/IGI at the appointment and was told that I did not need the sign-off for the initial 12 months

PS Didn't go out giving ground right away either way. Just interesting how this works

 

[ja_user]

Interestingly enough, Orlando FSDO disagrees. Asked for clarification while getting the AGI/IGI at the appointment and was told that I did not need the sign-off for the initial 12 months

PS Didn't go out giving ground right away either way. Just interesting how this works

I assume that someone getting a CFI, wouldn't need another signoff to some day use their GI cert? But who knows?

 

[marcoseddi]

If you are not a CFI I don't see the reason for this I mean you don't need ground hours for your license, and if you are Doung ground with someone it would be with your CFI to coincide or doing your written stuff there are so many online programs..

 

[weilke]

If you are not a CFI I don't see the reason for this I mean you don't need ground hours for your license, and if you are Doung ground with someone it would be with your CFI to coincide or doing your written stuff there are so many online programs..

Many of the online programs strictly 'teach to the test'. A monkey can pass the PPL written after you show him the King tapes twice. If you took someone who did that and asked him: 'please plan a flight from A to B in a PA24 using 70% power, here is the POH and you can't use foreflight' you would probably not get anything flyable out of him.

Learning styles are different, not everyone is able to absorb the actual knowledge required to become a pilot through self-directed study. There is definitely a role for classroom based in person ground-school.

 

[ajstoner21]

Study the same material as for the flight instructor airplane and fundamentals of instruction. Study guides available from Gliems, and others. No instructor signoff is required to take the exams and they are given at Cats and Laser Grade testing facilities. $150/ each. 70% is passing.

You will need a sign off if you don't pass the first try.

 

[poadeleted20]

Interestingly enough, Orlando FSDO disagrees. Asked for clarification while getting the AGI/IGI at the appointment and was told that I did not need the sign-off for the initial 12 months

Not all FSDO Inspectors know all the rules. However, reliance on the statement of a FSDO Inspector contrary to a Chief Counsel interpretation is not a defense to an FAA enforcement action. You might want to let whoever told you that to check the referenced interpretation -- and if you don't want to, I'll inform them of it myself.

 

[poadeleted20]

I assume that someone getting a CFI, wouldn't need another signoff to some day use their GI cert? But who knows?

Why not? Self-endorsement is prohibited. However, I know of no privilege associated with a GI certificate that is not attached to a CFI certificate with the appropriate ratings, so as long as the CFI/GI signs as a CFI, the issue will not arise.

 

[moonshine]

Not all FSDO Inspectors know all the rules. However, reliance on the statement of a FSDO Inspector contrary to a Chief Counsel interpretation is not a defense to an FAA enforcement action. You might want to let whoever told you that to check the referenced interpretation -- and if you don't want to, I'll inform them of it myself.

Question
Referenced interpretation is dated 18 May 2009, at which time 61.217 read

The holder of a ground instructor certificate may not perform the duties of a ground instructor unless, within the preceding 12 months:
(a) The person has served for at least 3 months as a ground instructor; or
(b) The person has received an endorsement from an authorized ground or flight instructor certifying that the person has demonstrated satisfactory proficiency in the subject areas prescribed in section 61.213(a)(3) and (a)(4), as applicable

Now later in 2009 that paragraph was revised to read

The holder of a ground instructor certificate may not perform the duties of a ground instructor unless the person can show that one of the following occurred during the preceding 12 calendar months:
(a) Employment or activity as a ground instructor giving pilot, flight instructor, or ground instructor training;
(b) Employment or activity as a flight instructor giving pilot, flight instructor, or ground instructor ground or flight training;
(c) Completion of an approved flight instructor refresher course and receipt of a graduation certificate for that course; or
(d) An endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the person has demonstrated knowledge in the subject areas prescribed under Sec. 61.213(a)(3) and (a)(4), as appropriate.

Now the question itself - how can an interpretation of the rule still be in effect, if the rule itself has since changed? E.g., you can work as a flight instructor and sign as a GI on the side without endorsements on your GI abilities.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Not all FSDO Inspectors know all the rules. However, reliance on the statement of a FSDO Inspector contrary to a Chief Counsel interpretation is not a defense to an FAA enforcement action. You might want to let whoever told you that to check the referenced interpretation -- and if you don't want to, I'll inform them of it myself.

I'm sure the ORL FSDO will be shaking in their boots at the thought.......

 

[jjflys]

I've heard that you can get out of the FOI if you have university level teaching experience (which I do). Is that true?

 

[weilke]

I've heard that you can get out of the FOI if you have university level teaching experience (which I do). Is that true?

14 CFR 61.213
.
.
.
(b) The knowledge test specified in paragraph (a)(3) of this section is not required if the applicant:
(1) Holds a ground instructor certificate or flight instructor certificate issued under this part;
(2) Holds a teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or
(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university.


I believe it requires actual current employment. Teaching a 1hr adult education class for the community college once every 3 months doesn't do it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Question
Referenced interpretation is dated 18 May 2009, at which time 61.217 read


Now later in 2009 that paragraph was revised to read


Now the question itself - how can an interpretation of the rule still be in effect, if the rule itself has since changed? E.g., you can work as a flight instructor and sign as a GI on the side without endorsements on your GI abilities.

The changes to the regulation did not change the situation for someone who was just issued a GI certificate unless that person meets one of the other qualifications. Mere issuance of the GI certificate still does not meet any paragraph of 61.217.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm sure the ORL FSDO will be shaking in their boots at the thought.......

That's not the issue. Some folks are afraid to call the FSDO on something like this for fear of retribution. I'm not, so I'll be happy to bring that interpretation to their attention if the poster is uncomfortable doing that.

 

[moonshine]

That's not the issue. Some folks are afraid to call the FSDO on something like this for fear of retribution. I'm not, so I'll be happy to bring that interpretation to their attention if the poster is uncomfortable doing that.

I don't mind calling the Vatican City if I think the situation's worth it.
In this case I'd much rather just have a chat about it next time I'm at the FSDO and try to see why the man told me what he did, than try to be a smartass and call him to tell him he's wrong, go read this and that. Especially if I don't think that he is wrong.

On an unrelated note - in the new version 61.217 allows for a CFI refresher course to satisfy the recency requirements. Not being a CFI and hence never seeing one of these up close and personal, is the aeronautical knowledge portion is more comprehensive than a fresh FOI+AGI knowledge test?

 

[Sam D]

On an unrelated note - in the new version 61.217 allows for a CFI refresher course to satisfy the recency requirements. Not being a CFI and hence never seeing one of these up close and personal, is the aeronautical knowledge portion is more comprehensive than a fresh FOI+AGI knowledge test?

You're not trying to apply logic are you?

 

[moonshine]

You're not trying to apply logic are you?

Been serving me well so far
I don't get the whole "FAA is stupid and inflexible" deal. Try dealing with the CAAs over the pond - now that's a

 

[RotorAndWing]

That's not the issue. Some folks are afraid to call the FSDO on something like this for fear of retribution. I'm not, so I'll be happy to bring that interpretation to their attention if the poster is uncomfortable doing that.

I don't mind calling the Vatican City if I think the situation's worth it.
In this case I'd much rather just have a chat about it next time I'm at the FSDO and try to see why the man told me what he did, than try to be a smartass and call him to tell him he's wrong, go read this and that. Especially if I don't think that he is wrong.

Much smarter way to go about an issue such as this.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Been serving me well so far
I don't get the whole "FAA is stupid and inflexible" deal. Try dealing with the CAAs over the pond - now that's a

Yep. People in the US don't realize just how good they have it when it comes to dealing with the FAA.

 

[ajstoner21]

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but wanted to bring up that as a ground instructor, you are now defined as a "flight school employee" as defined in 49 CFR 1552.21(b) and are now required to complete "Security Awareness Training"

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...n=div6&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.16.2&idno=49

§ 1552.21 Scope and definitions.
(a) Scope . This subpart applies to flight schools that provide instruction under 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, Part A, in the operation of aircraft or aircraft simulators, and to employees of such flight schools.

(b) Definitions: As used in this subpart:

Flight school employee means a flight instructor or ground instructor certificated under 14 CFR part 61, 141, or 142; a chief instructor certificated under 14 CFR part 141; a director of training certificated under 14 CFR part 142; or any other person employed by a flight school, including an independent contractor, who has direct contact with a flight school student. This includes an independent or solo flight instructor certificated under 14 CFR part 61.

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but wanted to bring up that as a ground instructor, you are now defined as a "flight school employee" as defined in 49 CFR 1552.21(b) and are now required to complete "Security Awareness Training"

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...n=div6&view=text&node=49:9.1.3.5.16.2&idno=49

...and to accomplish the recurrent training every 12 months, too, even if you aren't actually employed by a flight school (in which case they should be ensuring you get that training).

 

[ajstoner21]

If you look at it objectively, CFIs take two writtens and a practical test. The majority of a CFI practical test is the oral portion, which includes the applicant preparing and giving a lesson. The reason the FAA requires GIs to have an endorsement is because they are not required to take a practical test and the FAA is relying on the CFIs to determine if the GI has the proficiency to effectively teach.

Don't forget, ground instructors can endorse other ground instructors. Doesnt strictly require a CFI.

 

[poadeleted20]

Don't forget, ground instructors can endorse other ground instructors. Doesnt strictly require a CFI.

Right -- 61.217(d) just says "authorized instructor," not "authorized flight instructor," and the 61.1 definition of "authorized instructor" includes:

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with Sec. 61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

 

[poadeleted20]

91.207? Yep, doesn't meet nothing there.

Thank you for noting the typo -- fixed.