Ground reference maneuvers

AtlantaFalcons said:
My instructor's comments and my observations are:
-I'm looking outside too much
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Let's re-word that...how about "you're not maintaining an appropriate scan"? It's a visual manuever, so you're supposed to be looking outside the airplane. You just need to be able to better detect changes in altitude by changes in the site picture along with evidence from your instruments.

AtlantaFalcons said:
-Trying to use slow-flight techniques (pitch=airspeed,power=altitude) in a non-slow flight maneuver
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That's not limited to slow flight. It's just that you need to make pitch and power changes simultaneously. Make, small anticipated changes and try not to just react. You'll get the feeling for it.

AtlantaFalcons said:
-Not properly trimming so I'm constantly fiddling with the back/forward pressure and power
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Yeah, set and forget. Trim for an airspeed/configuration and leave it. Don't try to fly the trim wheel...that won't work.
 
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Brad Z said:
Let's re-word that...how about "you're not maintaining an appropriate scan"? It's a visual manuever, so you're supposed to be looking outside the airplane. You just need to be able to better detect changes in altitude by changes in the site picture along with evidence from your instruments.
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Yup... edited to "staring at my point". Definitely not doing the proper scan, that's a big thing to practice.
 
Your goal is to maintain a constant distance from a point. Once you have found your point (a tree, a barn, an intersection) identify four or more things on the ground that appear to be equidistant from the central point. Fly over those things. Problem solved. This process is described on page 6-8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Bob Gardner
 
My CFI used to say "Look outside, peek inside"-- so the emphasis is on the horizon, your actual point and the reference points around it, if you're lucky enough to have some. Then just peek at the attitude indicator for your altitude variation. The VSI would be good, but it lags.

You will get it!
 
Establish a good sight line on the horizon ,set the trim and forget it during the maneuver .
 
I would recommend doing some more rectangular course ground reference. Understand what's happening during each turn, then apply those 4 unique turns into a constant turn during turns around a point. I know a lot of instructors put so little focus on rectangular course these days. It is the foundation for understanding rate and radius of a turn.
 
As you enter on a tangent and start a turn, look to a point 90° away along the circle. So if you enter at a 6 o'clock position in a left turn, look for the 3 o'clock position on the ground and fly an arc to it. As you get near the 3 o'clock point, look to the 12 o'clock point and do the same.
 
Fwiw I teach my students to not look at the point and instead look where the airplane needs to go to fly a circle around it. Where you look is where you go.
 
bobmrg said:
Your goal is to maintain a constant distance from a point. Once you have found your point (a tree, a barn, an intersection) identify four or more things on the ground that appear to be equidistant from the central point. Fly over those things. Problem solved. This process is described on page 6-8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Bob Gardner
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:yeahthat:

Also, 90 degree intersections make GREAT points if your DPE will let you choose your own. You can easily pick out roughly the same distance on each of the four road branches and fly over them.
 
bobmrg said:
Your goal is to maintain a constant distance from a point. Once you have found your point (a tree, a barn, an intersection) identify four or more things on the ground that appear to be equidistant from the central point. Fly over those things. Problem solved. This process is described on page 6-8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Bob Gardner
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What Bob said and a what I liked to do, I always used a 4-way intersection and then visualized a point on each road a certain distance away from the intersection. I then did this:

Jesse said:
Fwiw I teach my students to not look at the point and instead look where the airplane needs to go to fly a circle around it. Where you look is where you go.
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Worked great for me. Also being aware of the wind direction and strength is important. Adjusting the bank depending on the ground speed will keep your circle from being too ugly. Mine were not perfect by any means, but they passed.
 
Sorry James, I missed your post at the end. Beating a dead horse LOL.
 
bobmrg said:
Your goal is to maintain a constant distance from a point. Once you have found your point (a tree, a barn, an intersection) identify four or more things on the ground that appear to be equidistant from the central point. Fly over those things. Problem solved. This process is described on page 6-8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook.
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I love that trick. It's surprising how many people haven't heard of it.
 
I struggled with this for a while as well prior to checkride. YMMV...but....here's what worked for me.
1. If you are going up solo regularly, go up some more. If not, get out there solo. Obvioulsy check in w your CFI and make sure you are doing everything safe...but...once you have safety for your solo time nailed, get out there solo. There is Nothing like going solo and just practicing. I went solo almost 16 hours, and it paid off a LOT.
2. Make the smallest possible correction input when off course or off alititude. See if this solves it. If not, make another SMALL correction input. I had NEVER heard this before and it makes an amazing difference. And I should know better, since I fly helos, which are all about the smallest possible correction input.

Good luck-))
 
Don't forget to practice them in both directions. Sitting on the left side of the plane, it is natural to turn to the left, then the DPE has you turn to the right. Different sight picture.
 
My checkride was on a low (3kt) wind day. Near the end of the ride my DPE still hadn't had me do turns about a point or a rectangular course; he stated that it wasn't windy enough to do make the turns about a point interesting so lets go do our pattern work, where we have a good reason to fly in a rectangle.
 
Favorite DPE tactic: "Let's go out to that small island (within gliding distance of shoreline) to do turns around a point..." "...the air is much smoother over the water." If an applicant has learned pilotage around a point (s)he will be pretty helpless without landmarks...

Of course the object of the maneuver is to learn wind correction not pilotage. While the pilotage technique may be a useful crutch to get through a checkride it really leaves the student short sheeted in the skill department.

SHIELDS UP
 
Are you using planning in this manuever or just circling the point? Review where max and min bank is in the manuver and why. (hint: ground speed and number of degrees that must be turned).
 
I pick out several reference points equidistant from turns around the center point and then fly over each one. Makes it much easier. Trim the plane before you begin the maneuver. Take note of the wind direction and speed. I use steeper turn on downwind and shallow turn upwind.
 
Well, it's been hinted at multiple times, but the key -- and indeed the point -- for all ground reference maneuvers at the private pilot level is to visualize your path on the ground. Pilotage works, but it's sort-of cheating. Developing a visual insight into your aircraft's path on the ground is an extremely helpful skill for crab correction and for crosswind landings -- you'll end up doing both automatically, perhaps without even noticing you're doing it (unless it's an extreme case). You'll also be able to just read off the WCA and estimate crosswind components from that.
 
jnbcfi said:
Of course the object of the maneuver is to learn wind correction not pilotage. While the pilotage technique may be a useful crutch to get through a checkride it really leaves the student short sheeted in the skill department.
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I think the pilotage technique is required in the beginning so the student can have reference points to LEARN the proper wind correction.

It's easy to know "ok bank steeper now, ground speed is up" but I found in the beginning that it was fairly harder than I thought it would be.
 
There is a Law of Learning Called Primacy which addresses the principle that things learned first are remembered best. It's like telling a student to turn base over the water tower then final over the red barn. Get them to a different runway and the have a lot of trouble.....
 
Regarding Turns about a Point, if you're staring at the point for too long, you aren't up to the PTS specs. You have to watch for traffic while you're doing this. It isn't really an exercise in flying circles, it's a demonstration of your ability to divide your attention among multiple jobs while doing a precise maneuver. Think "TPA". Traffic, Point, Altitude. Traffic, Point, Altitude. Your head should keep moving during the entire maneuver focusing on each item for about 3 seconds. TPA, TPA, TPA.
 
jnbcfi said:
Favorite DPE tactic: "Let's go out to that small island (within gliding distance of shoreline) to do turns around a point..." "...the air is much smoother over the water." If an applicant has learned pilotage around a point (s)he will be pretty helpless without landmarks...

Of course the object of the maneuver is to learn wind correction not pilotage. While the pilotage technique may be a useful crutch to get through a checkride it really leaves the student short sheeted in the skill department.

SHIELDS UP
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You're only supposed to use tricks like the four points thing to learn and see what's really going on prior to the ride and as an almost always available backup skill to the intended skill. If you make the trick the standard, you'll get bit. Yep.
 
Jeez, I flew over Nevada once at pretty low altitude. Seemed to me there are fewer surface features there than over water.........
 
Finished up some work with an instructor the other day and boy I forgot how hard turns around a point could be. I was pretty good on almost every PTS standard maneuver the instructor gave me except turns around a point. I feel your pain, OP. It's definitely one of the harder ones to nail perfectly and I'll have to work on it myself as well.

Some good tips in this thread for sure. Glad working on your flow helped, I think I need to do the same.
 
AtlantaFalcons said:
...I'm not sure why these particular maneuvers had me screwed up. Probably over-complicating things in my head and trying too hard to keep the point "in the same spot in the window."
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Don't try at all. The point should move around like this, unless there's no wind:
Left TAP.jpgRight TAP.jpg​

dtuuri
 
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Interesting. I bet that's why staring at the point doesn't work if there's any wind... You automatically steer to keep the point at a constant spot in the window, if you're staring at the point, and that does not result in a circle. :) Anyway, splitting your attention is the way to get the maneuver done smoothly and accurately.

dtuuri said:
Don't try at all. The point should move around like this, unless there's no wind:dtuuri
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bobmrg said:
Your goal is to maintain a constant distance from a point. Once you have found your point (a tree, a barn, an intersection) identify four or more things on the ground that appear to be equidistant from the central point. Fly over those things. Problem solved. This process is described on page 6-8 of the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Bob Gardner
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This worked really well for me.
 
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