Ground Instruction Hours??

Skydreamer2015

Skydreamer2015

Pre-Flight
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
59
Display Name
Display name:
Skydreamer2015
How many hours of ground instruction did you receive during your instrument training? I don't mean like a ground school class, but preflight & post flight training. What I am getting at is, how much ground instruction did you pay for? What was the rate & hours charged? Thanks!
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
How many hours of ground instruction did you receive during your instrument training? I don't mean like a ground school class, but preflight & post flight training. What I am getting at is, how much ground instruction did you pay for? What was the rate & hours charged? Thanks!
Click to expand...
Why do you ask?
 
Probably about an hour per training session. CFI had a single rate whether I was terrorizing him on the ground or in the air.
 
I had very little ground school as I did self study and passed the test before I started training. I had the flight schools syllabus and came prepared for every flight lesson. Instructor asked a few questions and I was always able to answer them all very quickly and easily so we just reviewed the flight portion and jumped in the plane. It really is all up to you and how much self study you are willing to put in. A relying on the CFII to teach you. I'm cheap and learn quick so I did the self study thing and used them to quiz me.
 
Not a lot. I did a lot of it self study and if I had a question, I'd just call or text my CFI. Or if I wanted a further explanation I'd bring it up before our flight. The only other time we do an actual ground lesson was when he gave me a mock oral in prep for the check ride.
 
Indeed, what's the purpose of the inquiry? Budget purposes?

I think you're going to find that the responses will vary a lot. Some instructors charge for ground lessons, some don't. Some instructors charge for pre and post flight briefings and others don't. Some charge different rates for ground vs. flight instruction, others don't.

I did my instrument rating long enough ago that I don't remember how many hours of logged ground I actually did with an instructor, but it wasn't a whole lot. I had done a self study program which gave me an endorsement to take the instrument written before I ever even started the flight training and as a result, we didn't sit around much discussing things. The instructor made sure I knew what I needed to know, but that was about the extent of it. We did however do the pre and post flight briefings every time, I'm not sure if I got charged for those or not.

As far as what I do with students, that depends on the student. If they want a ground course or they're not going to study on their own, they're going to get charged for me to teach them. If they're doing their own studying and just ask a question or two to confirm their understanding of a subject, I'm probably not going to bother charging them.
 
There was no charge for pre- and post-flight discussions. I paid the CFII their hourly rate by my watch, the same time that was logged for each flight. Time x Rate, write a check or slide the Visa. Actually, I put them on my account with the FBO, on account of I was broke . . . Paid the bill every few months when they gave it to me, usually my next trip to the airport.
 
Considering I dragged it out over something like 12 years, probably more than necessary at various rates throughout two decades in everything from a college classroom to a couple of instructor's living rooms and also the sitting at the airport after or before a training flight version. Even got grilled by one instructor once while I was grilling dinner for him and another pilot friend who was also working on his instrument rating, on my back porch. ;)

Generally though, the answer you're seeking isn't answerable because you can either be way ahead of the game with self-study, and only need review and confirmation by your instructor, or you can pay to have the instructor spoon-feed you every topic and concept.

Especially with the Instrument rating, you're very in control of your fate in this regard.

Example: Instructor for today's lesson wants to cover the "ILS Approach". If you've never heard of one, you're going to be there for a few hours. If you have read up, they're going to cover the basics and see that you've done your homework and move pretty quickly through it all.

Rates, like I said, everything from paying for college credit hours in a formal ground school to feeding the instructor steak and veggies on my back porch. For the most part, when I studied or reviewed with a CFI-I at an airport they charged their usual hourly rate for instruction but I noticed that the nicer ones rounded down a bit over the very long haul. Some track their time to the minute, some to the quarter hour, some just made up a number that wasn't ever longer than we actually spent. Overall I feel like I got a lot of time for free that I probably shouldn't have and whenever I noticed it, I'd offer to pay for it.

Now that I'm working on becoming an instructor I see no significant reason to not continue these "traditions" others offered to me. If you wanted to invite me to dinner and feed me while we talk airplanes and I toss questions at you, and you're not a jerk, I'll stop by. Dinner is always fun with other pilots. If we're pushing you toward a rating and a checkride and you need the formal sign-off that you know your stuff and a review, we're probably at the airport and on a clock. But I'm not going to spend a lot of energy starting a stop watch when you arrive and making sure to bill you for every single minute if you're progressing and doing your homework. I'm going to look at my watch and if we do a couple of hours you'll pay for a couple of hours. I won't waste your time during those hours either.

That said, I do have a copy of the Toggl app on my phone if you're a "problem child" who isn't putting in the effort, and I know how to print you a detailed invoice. LOL.
 
mondtster said:
Indeed, what's the purpose of the inquiry? Budget purposes?

I think you're going to find that the responses will vary a lot. Some instructors charge for ground lessons, some don't. Some instructors charge for pre and post flight briefings and others don't. Some charge different rates for ground vs. flight instruction, others don't.

I did my instrument rating long enough ago that I don't remember how many hours of logged ground I actually did with an instructor, but it wasn't a whole lot. I had done a self study program which gave me an endorsement to take the instrument written before I ever even started the flight training and as a result, we didn't sit around much discussing things. The instructor made sure I knew what I needed to know, but that was about the extent of it. We did however do the pre and post flight briefings every time, I'm not sure if I got charged for those or not.

As far as what I do with students, that depends on the student. If they want a ground course or they're not going to study on their own, they're going to get charged for me to teach them. If they're doing their own studying and just ask a question or two to confirm their understanding of a subject, I'm probably not going to bother charging them.
Click to expand...

The reason why I am asking is because I am considering an instructor that has offered a flat rate for unlimited ground instruction if I chose to. Like I said, it's not for a ground school "class", but for ground instruction. I have talked with some flight instructors that have been very vague in how many hours they will be charging me for ground instruction, but I assume that is because they don't know how much I will need just like they don't know how much flight training I will need to be proficient. I have already taken an instrument ground class at a local flying club, but haven't taken the written yet.
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
The reason why I am asking is because I am considering an instructor that has offered a flat rate for unlimited ground instruction if I chose to. Like I said, it's not for a ground school "class", but for ground instruction. I have talked with some flight instructors that have been very vague in how many hours they will be charging me for ground instruction, but I assume that is because they don't know how much I will need just like they don't know how much flight training I will need to be proficient. I have already taken an instrument ground class at a local flying club, but haven't taken the written yet.
Click to expand...

They're vague because they don't know what you know and won't until they quiz you.

If you knock out the written and really understand everything in it, the rest is teaching flight and alternate planning, real world weather decisions, and overall decision making.

Most folks won't 100 "get" everything they regurgitated for the written, but the instructor shouldn't have to read you the entire Instrument Flying Handbook out loud before bedtime every night, either. That's your job.

Get the written done, then pick up one of the published Instrument Oral guides and see what you know before committing to a flat fee ground option. I assume it's always available from the guy and you can do a lot of work and get the written done before even worrying about it.

If you struggle on the written after doing a formal groundschool like you're doing, then you might consider it.

Remember there's no surprises on an FAA checkride. Everything you need to know is defined and available for free. The instructor is just helping you nail it all together into a cohesive set of behaviors and knowledge and offering some wisdom not printed in the books.
 
As others have said, if you can study and understand the theory on your own, you don't need any "ground school" whatsoever. You do need to pass the "knowledge test" (aka "written"), and convince your CFI that you know your stuff inside out. Since aviation at the PPL and IR level is no rocket science, that shouldn't be too hard to master if you are a reasonably educated person. I myself was not charged for any ground school for PPL and IR, and I suspect there are many pilots in that category.
 
Keep in mind, even if you have 100% of the knowledge you already need for the ground, the instructor has a responsibility to make sure of that and is putting his signature on the line with the Feds that you are good to go. You can't just make that decision randomly, it takes time and at a minimum some questions and discussion.
 
I probably had about 20-30 hrs 1on1 with the instructor. As an instructor, I do spend time discussing not only concepts that must be validated as mastered, but also the expectations and feedback for each lesson. If you are not getting that, you should ask for it or find another instructor.
 
FWIW, as an instructor I bill for 30 minutes of instructional time for each flight. That covers pre brief and post brief. I almost always take the full 30 minutes, and usually go over, but I set a flat rate to keep everyone from starring at their watches. I also do specific ground sesssions at my normal rate to cover specific topics in the syllabus. I will cover each subject area in §61.65; how much time we spend in each area is based on how well prepared you are.
 
Zero, my ground instruction was go preflight the plane I'll be there in a few. Honestly you shouldn't need much if you study or just ask any questions in the air.
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
The reason why I am asking is because I am considering an instructor that has offered a flat rate for unlimited ground instruction if I chose to. Like I said, it's not for a ground school "class", but for ground instruction. I have talked with some flight instructors that have been very vague in how many hours they will be charging me for ground instruction, but I assume that is because they don't know how much I will need just like they don't know how much flight training I will need to be proficient. I have already taken an instrument ground class at a local flying club, but haven't taken the written yet.
Click to expand...

How well do you know that instructor and how well does he know you? I'm guessing he knows you at least well enough to know that you are knowledgeable and motivated enough that he can make that offer. Did you fly with him during your primary training?
 
Skydreamer2015 said:
How many hours of ground instruction did you receive during your instrument training? I don't mean like a ground school class, but preflight & post flight training. What I am getting at is, how much ground instruction did you pay for? What was the rate & hours charged? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Rate was $6 an hour and I remember thinking these guys get paid pretty good, maybe I should become a CFI
 
mulligan said:
I had very little ground school as I did self study and passed the test before I started training. I had the flight schools syllabus and came prepared for every flight lesson. Instructor asked a few questions and I was always able to answer them all very quickly and easily so we just reviewed the flight portion and jumped in the plane. It really is all up to you and how much self study you are willing to put in. A relying on the CFII to teach you. I'm cheap and learn quick so I did the self study thing and used them to quiz me.
Click to expand...

Same here
 
mulligan said:
I'm sure everyone else did too.
Click to expand...

As well as your overachieving self should have found it flattering and funny. Ya see, smart people who pick up on things quickly and easily make those of us who have to work at it, look bad or feel inferior. That is why I said "nobody likes him much" which was a joke and in fact a compliment towards you. No offense intended.


Jeez, I didn't think I had to explain it. :rolleyes:
 
Timbeck2 said:
As well as your overachieving self should have found it flattering and funny. Ya see, smart people who pick up on things quickly and easily make those of us who have to work at it, look bad or feel inferior. That is why I said "nobody likes him much" which was a joke and in fact a compliment towards you. No offense intended.


Jeez, I didn't think I had to explain it. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I'm not offended. I like to poke bees nests. Makes the day go by faster. Truth is there is not a single person on this board that I would not sit down with over a few cocktails and share war stories. Even the ones that ruffled my feathers among the way. Carry on.
 
You may be a great IFR student but your nest-poking skills need a little work. ;)
 
falconkidding said:
Zero, my ground instruction was go preflight the plane I'll be there in a few. Honestly you shouldn't need much if you study or just ask any questions in the air.
Click to expand...
You forgot the part about knowing every manuever from the womb.

It should not be necessary to teach book facts aside from a little reinforcement review. However, brief and debrief about specific problem areas, local procedures, "gotchas" for pilot, airplane, airspace, controllers, and other pilots, squawks and their severity, and student questions must be covered. These are not in the student's control and an instructor skipping them is doing a disservice.

If you end a flight, secure the plane, and leave, your instructor hasn't done his job. A good debrief about what went right and what went wrong, what's acceptable performance, and what's next is an essential part of instruction.

I had a primary instructor who did very little ground instruction, and virtually no debrief at all. I had an instrument instructor who did both extensively, with a large emphasis on problem solving. Guess which one I recommend to other people. The scary thing is, both are part time, but the second one cost half what the first did, and had only about 900 hours when we finished. Still, he did it well.
 
Timbeck2 said:
You may be a great IFR student but your nest-poking skills need a little work. ;)
Click to expand...


Aaw, @mulligan , I thought you did fine with the pictures you posted a while back - poked my nest pretty good. AND studied a whole bunch rather than having the CFII do the heavy lifting? Sounds like a student I'd like to fly with.
 
MAKG1 said:
You forgot the part about knowing every manuever from the womb.

It should not be necessary to teach book facts aside from a little reinforcement review. However, brief and debrief about specific problem areas, local procedures, "gotchas" for pilot, airplane, airspace, controllers, and other pilots, squawks and their severity, and student questions must be covered. These are not in the student's control and an instructor skipping them is doing a disservice.

If you end a flight, secure the plane, and leave, your instructor hasn't done his job. A good debrief about what went right and what went wrong, what's acceptable performance, and what's next is an essential part of instruction.

I had a primary instructor who did very little ground instruction, and virtually no debrief at all. I had an instrument instructor who did both extensively, with a large emphasis on problem solving. Guess which one I recommend to other people. The scary thing is, both are part time, but the second one cost half what the first did, and had only about 900 hours when we finished. Still, he did it well.
Click to expand...
I guess my instructors have debriefed but its been in the moments while putting away the plane and logbook signing no actual lets sit down and have a moment. I try to over prepare so preflight briefing isn't needed and I feel like my instructors have provided adequate feedback in flight so a post flight beyond a quick bring xyz for next flight isn't needed.
 
Brad Z said:
FWIW, as an instructor I bill for 30 minutes of instructional time for each flight. That covers pre brief and post brief. I almost always take the full 30 minutes, and usually go over, but I set a flat rate to keep everyone from starring at their watches. I also do specific ground sesssions at my normal rate to cover specific topics in the syllabus. I will cover each subject area in §61.65; how much time we spend in each area is based on how well prepared you are.
Click to expand...

I personally cannot bring myself to charge for pre/post. Pre is usually less than 10 minutes, post 10-20 minutes depending on how "Question of the day" goes. I do have formal one-on-one lessons, however if a student is well prepared and has a high level of understanding on the topics discussed, it won't last last long.

I am also in the midwest, so this time of year we start having to sit and let the engine run to warm up (even though they're all kept in heated hangars) so I try to put ground school into that time. May as well if you're paying for me and the airplane!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top