Great job by Chicago Approach

Dave Siciliano

Dave Siciliano

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 27, 2005
Messages
6,434
Location
Dallas, Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Dave Siciliano
Flew back from Kiawah Island, SC today to Oshkosh with a full plane: two nieces, one husband, two babies and I with lots of stuff! As we approached Chicago approach's airspace, there was a huge line of thunderstorms from well east of the city to Polo VOR to the west of Rockford. We climbed up to FL240 to stay visual as long as possible and wound our way around rising cells until we could find a place to penetrate and get to the north to OSH. Chicago worked with us at every point where we needed a climb or deviation for weather. Airliners were holding all over along our sector with expect further clearance times 40 minutes out as the storms approached ORD. We got some ice, and a bit of turbulence, but found a great hole and penetrated to the north to get into OSH without any issues. Great job by the controllers, much of it over Chicago's class B.

See N322KS of flightaware.

Best,

Dave
 
Ya know, when I got my PPL last year, and I could fly anytime I want in My PA28/161 Warrior, I thought, wow, I really am a pilot, I even have my own airplane. Then I read stuff like this and start thinking that I don't know squat, and my Warrior is no big deal at all.

Then I realize, I am a pilot, and I can fly anytime I want, in my own airplane. For me, at my age, it's a big deal, a really big deal.

Stories like this are indeed wonderful. :)

John
 
John Baker said:
Ya know, when I got my PPL last year, and I could fly anytime I want in My PA28/161 Warrior, I thought, wow, I really am a pilot, I even have my own airplane. Then I read stuff like this and start thinking that I don't know squat, and my Warrior is no big deal at all.

Then I realize, I am a pilot, and I can fly anytime I want, in my own airplane. For me, at my age, it's a big deal, a really big deal.

Stories like this are indeed wonderful. :)

John
Click to expand...

Amen to all that, John. We're all on a continuum of abilities and options, but the "I am a pilot" part, that's golden.

I wish I had skills and resources which were remotely comparable to Dave's, but still cherish what I get to do with my certificate and airplane, and I can always hope and work to upgrade.

---

Dave:

Nicely done!
 
N801BH said:
The track looks pretty painless and not that big of a diversion at all... Good job from center,,, and hitting the weather just right doesn't hurt either..:yesnod::)

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N322KS
Click to expand...

Our direct route would have taken us well east of Chicago near GSH VOR. We went west about 100 NM from our direct path before finding a hole to turn north. We had amended our clearance to RFD, but found the storms were west of there to the POLO VOR. Had we had to go that far west, we probably would have pulled up and waited for them to pass.

My niece sent me a text saying at least one tornado was spotted on the ground from this system.

As to holes to fly through, I'm pretty picky. I know of more than one that has looked good and either wasn't as one proceeded farther in or closed up. Between the NEXRAD and on board RADAR systems, we got pretty comfortable before turning into this. We stayed visual as long as possible and wound up being IMC only about 10 or 15 minutes.

More IMC getting into OSH, but that's another story.

Best,

Dave
 
Last edited:
Dave Siciliano said:
Flew back from Kiawah Island, SC today to Oshkosh with a full plane: two nieces, one husband, two babies and I with lots of stuff! As we approached Chicago approach's airspace, there was a huge line of thunderstorms from well east of the city to Polo VOR to the west of Rockford. We climbed up to FL240 to stay visual as long as possible and wound our way around rising cells until we could find a place to penetrate and get to the north to OSH. Chicago worked with us at every point where we needed a climb or deviation for weather. Airliners were holding all over along our sector with expect further clearance times 40 minutes out as the storms approached ORD. We got some ice, and a bit of turbulence, but found a great hole and penetrated to the north to get into OSH without any issues. Great job by the controllers, much of it over Chicago's class B.
Click to expand...

Sounds like your title should have been "Great job by Chicago Center".
 
roncachamp said:
Sounds like your title should have been "Great job by Chicago Center".
Click to expand...

Yeah, at FL240, he was above C90's airspace. I admit that I was pleasantly surprised when I saw a positive comment about C90. I hoped that they were turning a new page.

I will say, though, that they seem to be getting slowly better in the last few years.
 
I do have to give a shout out to Pittsburgh Approach. Last month while flying back to Cleveland from North Carolina there were some scattered storms moving southbound over Ohio. I stopped just south of Pittsburgh to take a look at them, and lacking onboard weather decided to cut north over Pennsylvania and then west just south of the lake shore. Pittsburgh approach gave me flight following and cleared me through the Bravo right over their airport at 3500, but that's not all. They then of their own initiative offered to help guide me around the isolated storm cells to cut about 45 minutes off my trip. I was genuinely surprised at their helpfulness.
 
Thats good stuff Dave! I recall a few years ago or perhaps more than a few a pilot who was headed up that way and being vectored for Wx by who ever was before Chicago ( IIRC it was Chicago) was handed off the App or Center can't recall which but again my memory says it was Chicago, and the entity handing off did not tell Chicago that they were vectoring the plane for Wx and the pilot did not advise that he was being vectored for Wx when he was turned over and Chicago turned him into the Wx, a real nasty area of TS, An break up occurred and you can guess the rest.

It was assumed the pilot thought the receiving ATC was told by the handing off ATC that he was being vectored for Wx. I recall seeing an AOPA-ASF video with Audio. Since then I've always told the receiving ATC what the handing off agency was doing for me if they were doing something like Wx or traffic.

I have to say that a majority of ATC I've worked with have really done a good job of helping me get where I"m going safely in a friendly way.
 
gprellwitz said:
Yeah, at FL240, he was above C90's airspace. I admit that I was pleasantly surprised when I saw a positive comment about C90. I hoped that they were turning a new page.

I will say, though, that they seem to be getting slowly better in the last few years.
Click to expand...
The track log shows that it was Chi-center doing the ATCing too

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N322KS/history/20110813/1400Z/KJZI/KOSH/tracklog

Although I have to say when the WX is crap C90 is helpful and will not blow off GA like they will when VMC.
 
AdamZ said:
Thats good stuff Dave! I recall a few years ago or perhaps more than a few a pilot who was headed up that way and being vectored for Wx by who ever was before Chicago ( IIRC it was Chicago) was handed off the App or Center can't recall which but again my memory says it was Chicago, and the entity handing off did not tell Chicago that they were vectoring the plane for Wx and the pilot did not advise that he was being vectored for Wx when he was turned over and Chicago turned him into the Wx, a real nasty area of TS, An break up occurred and you can guess the rest.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how long ago this was but I have noticed that the capability of ATC to see weather has improved a great deal in the past 10-15 years.
 
ScottM said:
Although I have to say when the WX is crap C90 is helpful and will not blow off GA like they will when VMC.
Click to expand...
This is true. I've actually had them willing to work with South Bend and accept a handoff and allow a more direct route somewhat over the lake and definitely through the ORD Class Bravo. OTOH, this was at 10 or 11PM.
 
roncachamp said:
Sounds like your title should have been "Great job by Chicago Center".
Click to expand...

Yup. And Chicago Center has always done a great job IME - People just confuse them with Chicago Approach, and having heard all the stories about Chicago Approach, they think Chicago Center is bad.

Looks like Dave is on his way home now, getting 230 knots across the ground. Nice.
 
Steve: I worked with both Center and Approach; however, they were calling themselves approach when I asked to turn into the hole I saw in the weather even at FL240 unless I'm just mixing things up. I was above the Class B the entire time and was turned over to approach at least twice.

Adam: I tell them if I need to. That is, if they turn me toward weather I don't feel capable of dealing with, I tell them in clear terms. If it's optional, I ask nicely. Approach did ask me when I wanted to begin my descent and I told them not until I cleared the line of storms and could turn north; they immediately said--oh that's right--advise when you want to descend which was just great.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Steve: I worked with both Center and Approach; however, they were calling themselves approach when I asked to turn into the hole I saw in the weather even at FL240 unless I'm just mixing things up. I was above the Class B the entire time and was turned over to approach at least twice.
Click to expand...

The last time I examined the ZAU/C90 Letter of Agreement, sometime within the past year, Chicago approach had no delegated airspace above 15,000 MSL.
 
roncachamp said:
The last time I examined the ZAU/C90 Letter of Agreement, sometime within the past year, Chicago approach had no delegated airspace above 15,000 MSL.
Click to expand...
That matches what they told us during an Operation Raincheck meeting a couple months ago. In fact, I thought it was even lower, but I could be misremembering.
 
gprellwitz said:
That matches what they told us during an Operation Raincheck meeting a couple months ago. In fact, I thought it was even lower, but I could be misremembering.
Click to expand...

Most of it tops out at 13,000 MSL, but I believe there's an area that goes up to 15,000. I'll check the LoA tomorrow.
 
I wonder if it's adjusted in times of inclement weather? There were a lot of folks holding on the arrival.

Maybe we should change to Approach and Center, but I was at FL200 or higher the entire time and was turned over to Approach, at least that is what they said on the turnover call.

Best,

Dave
 
Apache Bob is a Chi Center controller and I am pretty sure he handles stuff > 10k. I saw him on earlier today, perhaps he can answer and let us know the details. I may also see him later today and could ask him.
 
Regardless of whether it was Chicago Approach or Center, it's always good to hear of helpful controllers, especially in busy airspace. I've had NY Approach try to vector me into thunderstorms to help their traffic flow, to which they received a prompt "Unable." "Why?" "It's a thunderstorm." "So?" "I'm not flying into a thunderstorm." "Well, I need you to do that." "What part of 'UNABLE' did you not understand?"

Glad that you had a safe flight, Dave. Always best to give thunderstorms a nice berth, especially at high altitudes.
 
Thanks Ted. If it was Center (and it certainly sounds as if it was) Thanks to them. I certainly worked with center for a long time. Just seem to recall Approach right in the ORD area, but all controllers did an excellent job. It was right around ORD and west where we needed the most assistance and received it.

Best,

Dave
 
gprellwitz said:
That matches what they told us during an Operation Raincheck meeting a couple months ago. In fact, I thought it was even lower, but I could be misremembering.
Click to expand...

Page from the ZAU/C90 LoA showing airspace delegated to Chicago approach:
 

Attachments

  • ZAU-C90 LoA.JPG
    ZAU-C90 LoA.JPG
    101.3 KB · Views: 21
ScottM said:
Apache Bob is a Chi Center controller and I am pretty sure he handles stuff > 10k. I saw him on earlier today, perhaps he can answer and let us know the details. I may also see him later today and could ask him.
Click to expand...

Depends what sectors he works. I think the LNR sector, for example, starts at 10K above MSN approach, and goes to the ground (er, the base of Class E) out to the west. I think only C90 gets airspace up to 15,000.
 
roncachamp said:
Page from the ZAU/C90 LoA showing airspace delegated to Chicago approach:
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
Depends what sectors he works. I think the LNR sector, for example, starts at 10K above MSN approach, and goes to the ground (er, the base of Class E) out to the west. I think only C90 gets airspace up to 15,000.
Click to expand...
See the LoA that Steven posted above for confirmation. Now, they may have been able to get a special variation, and maybe Steven or Bob can confirm if that ever happens. I admit that it's weird that they identified to Dave that they were Approach.
 
Well Grant, I certainly could be recalling incorrectly, or someone could have said contact approach in err. Anyway, they did a wonderful job and I appreciate it--approach or center. Funny how you really seem to recall something explicitly and later it turns out to not be correct. Oh well, the cabin altitude was over 10,000 feet <g>

Best,

Dave
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Depends what sectors he works. I think the LNR sector, for example, starts at 10K above MSN approach, and goes to the ground (er, the base of Class E) out to the west. I think only C90 gets airspace up to 15,000.
Click to expand...
I am not following what you're trying to say. Chi-Center airspace goes way above 15k.
 
gprellwitz said:
See the LoA that Steven posted above for confirmation. Now, they may have been able to get a special variation, and maybe Steven or Bob can confirm if that ever happens. I admit that it's weird that they identified to Dave that they were Approach.
Click to expand...

I was responding to Scott's comment about ApacheBob working from 10K up.

Dave Siciliano said:
Well Grant, I certainly could be recalling incorrectly, or someone could have said contact approach in err.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking - Frazzled controller (due to wx) is handing a gazillion airplanes, and handing them all off to Approach until you come along, so he says Approach. I've heard the tower clear a jet for a touch and go instead of a landing when there were a lot of students in the pattern one day. :rofl:

ScottM said:
I am not following what you're trying to say. Chi-Center airspace goes way above 15k.
Click to expand...

Of course - It goes UP to 65K. You stated that ApacheBob worked airspace ">10K" - I'm just saying, that it depends on what area you're in where Center starts vertically. Base of class E, 15K for much of C90, 10K above some of the smaller TRACONs, etc.
 
gprellwitz said:
Class A airspace doesn't, IIRC. OTOH, if you want VFR advisories above FL 650, I guess it would be given by (a very surprised) Center. :)
Click to expand...

One day I would like to fly an aircraft up to FL700, simply so I can cancel IFR and then request a pop-up so I can descend through class A.
 
gprellwitz said:
Class A airspace doesn't, IIRC. OTOH, if you want VFR advisories above FL 650, I guess it would be given by (a very surprised) Center. :)
Click to expand...

Class A airspace ends at FL 600, above that it's Class E.

When I worked at ZAU I once cleared a U-2 to FL 610, but he cancelled IFR leaving FL 600 and didn't stick around for advisories.
 
Kent, what I was trying to say is that bob works the higher altitudes for chi center not that there airspace starts at a certain height.

Anyways I am sitting here with bob right now, he tells me that if Dave was up above 15k he was indeed talking to chi center. It is also very likely that he was talking to apache bob as he was working that sector on that day.
 
ScottM said:
Anyways I am sitting here with bob right now, he tells me that if Dave was up above 15k he was indeed talking to chi center. It is also very likely that he was talking to apache bob as he was working that sector on that day.
Click to expand...

Well, now we know who screwed up and said "Approach." :rofl:
 
One of the controllers on AvSig suggested I pass my comments on to the quality control person for Chicago Center and that she could see where I was and when and find out who handled me so they could see my comments expressing my appreciation. Just did that.

Best,

Dave
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top