Great in-flight cell phone reception

[ChrisK]

I bet enough people don't and detection is difficult enough that it would be impractical to enforce and would cause a good bit of unrest if they tried.

Think about it - you get a $10,000 fine in the mail from the FCC because they claim you didn't turn your phone off while flying. You can bet I wouldn't pay it.

Hey that is certainly possible!

I end up on the rule enforcers side because I end up having to explain the 800 MHz issue at least a couple times a month.

 

[Ted]

The FCC strikes me as an entity that may do something useful, but I sure don't know what. Probably, much like the FAA, they do have some important function and have a use. They're quiet enough that I forget they're around most of the time, and that's not a bad thing for a government agency.

The problem as I see it is that they supposedly have laws that extend to all citizens who aren't aware of the laws and aren't aware of the penalties. They should just repeal those, make it easier on everyone.

 

[aviatingfool]

The FCC strikes me as an entity that may do something useful, but I sure don't know what. Probably, much like the FAA, they do have some important function and have a use. They're quiet enough that I forget they're around most of the time, and that's not a bad thing for a government agency.

The problem as I see it is that they supposedly have laws that extend to all citizens who aren't aware of the laws and aren't aware of the penalties. They should just repeal those, make it easier on everyone.

It's nice to dream.......

What I have found interesting is that in certain parts of the country I can get perfect cell reception at altitude and, through blue tooth and Zulu headset, talk to people that think I'm on a land line. Happened in Texas and Washington. Here in Cal I get no signal most the time.....weird.

 

[Ted]

It's nice to dream.......

What I have found interesting is that in certain parts of the country I can get perfect cell reception at altitude and, through blue tooth and Zulu headset, talk to people that think I'm on a land line. Happened in Texas and Washington. Here in Cal I get no signal most the time.....weird.

Back when I was flying charters, we told every passenger to turn their cell phone off prior to take-off as part of the pre-flight safety briefing. Well, look back after the gear comes up and they're pretty much always on the phone. No headset, the Navajo was quiet enough.

Some of them managed to get reception at 8,000 ft that was good enough to talk. Pretty astounding to me, since my BlackBerry couldn't even receive text messages at that altitude.

 

[Alexb2000]

Isn't it just possible that the FAA and/or FCC haven't fined anyone...... because it doesn't really cause any problems?

Let's review:

First the airlines said cell phones are bad, interfere with cockpit communications, and cause the aircraft to go down faster than their stock.

Now all of a sudden you can use your cell phone when the wheels touch the ground. Wait a minute, a few people here are aviation savvy, don't you still need to talk to ground after the wheels touch? How can that be possible with all that interference?

Wait a moment more, what is this, international carriers are allowing cell phones in flight:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57528381-93/emirates-airlines-allows-in-flight-cell-phone-chatting/

Help me out here?

 

[Ted]

I think that what it comes down to is that, early on, there was a fear there might be a problem. This was done through some sort of logic experiment with a minimal amount of data. Nobody wanted an RV-10 filled with 350 people and baggage to crash, so it was easy to make a ruling.

Nowadays there seems to be a pretty overwhelming amount of empirical evidence that it doesn't matter. But, the US legislators don't want people talking/texting on their phones when they should be paying attention to the flight attendant showing how to use a seat belt. Instead, they're flipping through SkyMall, reading a book, or doing the Sudoku in the back of the airline's corporate magazine. So we stand here, being warned that Achmed will send us a $10,000 fine for having our cell phones on in flight.

 

[N801BH]

..... Nobody wanted an RV-10 filled with 350 people and baggage to crash, so it was easy to make a ruling.

.

Your honor... I object...... That comment was aimed at experimentals.....

I am calling Geico as my next witness..

 

[Alexb2000]

But, the US legislators don't want people talking/texting on their phones when they should be paying attention to the flight attendant showing how to use a seat belt. Instead, they're flipping through SkyMall, reading a book, or doing the Sudoku in the back of the airline's corporate magazine.

I'm the one reading American Way in earnest and pounding a double scotch.

Why?

I don't want my mind to focus on the probabilities of survival if we go down and the over weight 70 year old flight attendant is expected to throw open a pressurized door, deploy a slide, drag the 350 lb. power eater already in heart failure from the aisle seat next to me, before I have some chance of escape.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

PEOPLE!! PEOPLE!! PEOPLE!! Nearly 50 posts and no one has brought up the obvious point??? How did he survive this flight so far from the protection of the magenta line???????

 

[JHW]

PEOPLE!! PEOPLE!! PEOPLE!! Nearly 50 posts and no one has brought up the obvious point??? How did he survive this flight so far from the protection of the magenta line???????

magenta line goes down the middle of lake michigan. I don't go there.

 

[Aeric]

More utter and complete poppycock. GSM phones are always hunting for "mama" with powerful bursts, unless off. That's why they rapidly rundown, when on but out of range......

Very true. I used to go to a friend's house in the sticks in Northern California where there was no cell service. My old Razor battery would get hot while the phone tried over and over at high power levels to try to establish contact with a cell tower. If I left it on, it would be dead in less than two hours.

 

[flyingmoose]

I bet enough people follow the rule that it isn't a problem.

I wouldn't bet on that. A fully loaded aircraft has many people with there phones on, I guarantee it. I bet some of the flight crew even have there phones on!! Doesn't seem to be an issue. Not to mention all the GA pilots flying around with all there phones on.

I can imagine the look on someones face when or if they had to go to court for a fine.

Average Joe: I didn't know judge!
Judge: Its right her in CFR47!!
Average Joe: Oh dang, your right I will start keeping that with me more.

 

[Ted]

I'm the one reading American Way in earnest and pounding a double scotch.

Why?

I don't want my mind to focus on the probabilities of survival if we go down and the over weight 70 year old flight attendant is expected to throw open a pressurized door, deploy a slide, drag the 350 lb. power eater already in heart failure from the aisle seat next to me, before I have some chance of escape.

A bit over a year ago, Laurie and I were on a commercial flight from EWR to Newfoundland. They made the point that our seat cushions could be used as floatation devices in the event of a water landing in the North Atlantic at night. I looked at her and said "They could just tell us if we have to make a water landing we're all dead. That would be more accurate."

 

[Ted]

Your honor... I object...... That comment was aimed at experimentals.....

I am calling Geico as my next witness..

What? You're objecting to the government protecting you from yourself?

 

[Piloto]

Absolutely and totally false.

For a practical demonstration of this, set your phone next to a set of amplified speakers (like computer speakers) and walk away. Some time within the next 15 minutes or so, you will hear a "chirping" noise through the speakers. This is your cell phone transmitting. Smart phones transmit much more often, as they are constantly sending and receiving data. But even "dumb" phones are regularly checking in with the network.

You are correct about the problem being due to locking on to multiple cellular towers at the same time, but incorrect about the rest.

The above is true but only when the cell phone knows on what frequency and CDMA code to transmit after scanning the area in receive mode so it can log-in. But if the cell phone is unable to receive a cell it will not know on what frequency or code to transmit out of the 1000+ possible combinations. Otherwise you would have a more serious interference problem in NYC than just a couple of flying cell phones. The issue of cell phone network jamming by an airborne cell phone is just a myth. An airborne cell phone will not transmit unless it has the specifics of a cell. While in flight the cell phone momentarily may acquire a cell specifics and tries to log-in. But most of the time the mutual interference at the phone inhibit it from locking to a cell frequency/code.

BTW the occasional log-in chirping you hear on the speakers is just to let the cell network knows on what cell area you are so when someone calls you they know what cell to access to ring you. Otherwise they would need to ring the whole world!!!

José

 

[JHW]

The above is true but only when the cell phone knows on what frequency and CDMA code to transmit after scanning the area in receive mode. But if the cell phone is unable to receive a cell it will not know on what frequency or code to transmit out of the 1000+ possible combinations. Otherwise you would have a more serious interference problem in NYC than just a couple of flying cell phones. The issue of cell phone network jamming by an airborne cell phone is just a myth. An airborne cell phone will not transmit unless it has the specifics of a cell. While in flight the cell phone momentarily may acquire a cell specifics and tries to handshake for data transfer. But most of the time the mutual interference at the phone inhibit it from locking to a cell frequency/code.

José

Nope. Turn your phone on in a quantas jet over the middle of the pacific. It will heat up and drain the battery in a couple hours as it pounds away transmitting into the blind at full power.

 

[Skylane81E]

Nope. Turn your phone on in a quantas jet over the middle of the pacific. It will heat up and drain the battery in a couple hours as it pounds away transmitting into the blind at full power.

Have to agree, I've had cell phones on in many places with zero coverage, better have it off or in airplane mode if you want any battery left.

 

[Piloto]

Nope. Turn your phone on in a quantas jet over the middle of the pacific. It will heat up and drain the battery in a couple hours as it pounds away transmitting into the blind at full power.

What phone is this? That is a poor design. I have been sailing out of cell coverage for days and never experienced this problem. Try setting the phone in the power save mode. The added power drain may be due to the active receiver/decoder during receive scanning mode.

José

 

[JHW]

What phone is this? That is a poor design. I have been sailing out of cell coverage for days and never experienced this problem. Try setting the phone in the power save mode. The added power drain may be due to the active receiver/decoder during receive scanning mode.

José

we're not talking about modes. We're talking about having the phone turned on in it's normal mode (sleeping or not, but powered on) where it could receive a call. Both blackberry and iphone will be cold and dead in no time. If they are on they are transmitting. If they don't get a signal they crank up the power and keep trying.

 

[Piloto]

we're not talking about modes. We're talking about having the phone turned on in it's normal mode (sleeping or not, but powered on) where it could receive a call. Both blackberry and iphone will be cold and dead in no time. If they are on they are transmitting. If they don't get a signal they crank up the power and keep trying.

I have done airborne EMI testing at FL 290 with spectrum analyzers onboard and never seen a constant spectral line at the 800MHz band except for the occasional log-in burst. And there were at least three cell phones onboard. Now can you imagine 100+ cell phone onboard an airliner all transmitting at full power at the same time all the time? It just does not happens. Next time check with a spectrum analyzer.

José

 

[JHW]

I have done airborne EMI testing at FL 290 with spectrum analyzers onboard and never seen a constant spectral line at the 800MHz band except for the occasional log-in burst. And there were at least three cell phones onboard. Now can you imagine 100+ cell phone onboard an airliner all transmitting at full power at the same time all the time? It just does not happens. Next time check with a spectrum analyzer.

José

I can check it with my hand and my eyes. Turn the cell signal off and it stays cool and lasts for 8+ hours. leave the cell signal on and it gets hot and has a dead battery in 2 hours.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have done airborne EMI testing at FL 290 with spectrum analyzers onboard and never seen a constant spectral line at the 800MHz band except for the occasional log-in burst. And there were at least three cell phones onboard. Now can you imagine 100+ cell phone onboard an airliner all transmitting at full power at the same time all the time? It just does not happens. Next time check with a spectrum analyzer.

What do you think those log-in bursts are? Oh yeah, transmissions.

I don't think anyone said that a single phone will transmit at all times, but they do make transmissions.

The issue with airborne cell phones is the architecture of the 800 MHz infrastructure...you light up dozens of towers on the ground, and the companies can have significant performance issues as a result.

I don't think there's anything about the parts of the networks on other bands that truly solves the problem - It's just that when the regs were written, 800MHz was all that was available.

Absolutely and totally false.

For a practical demonstration of this, set your phone next to a set of amplified speakers (like computer speakers) and walk away. Some time within the next 15 minutes or so, you will hear a "chirping" noise through the speakers. This is your cell phone transmitting. Smart phones transmit much more often, as they are constantly sending and receiving data. But even "dumb" phones are regularly checking in with the network.

True, but the chirps only happen on GSM (AT&T) phones, and then only when they're not getting 3G. I haven't heard the chirp in quite a while.

 

[JGoodish]

More utter and complete poppycock. GSM phones are always hunting for "mama" with powerful bursts, unless off. That's why they rapidly rundown, when on but out of range......

Isn't just GSM phones, it most certainly affects CDMA phones as well. All phones will vary power output to maintain communication with the network, and even phones which cannot find a network will periodically transmit in an attempt to find one.


JKG

 

[MSPAviator]

I was once intercepted by a pair of F-16's and told over 121.5 to turn off my cell phone. :wink2:

 

[denverpilot]

The FCC strikes me as an entity that may do something useful, but I sure don't know what. Probably, much like the FAA, they do have some important function and have a use. They're quiet enough that I forget they're around most of the time, and that's not a bad thing for a government agency.

The problem as I see it is that they supposedly have laws that extend to all citizens who aren't aware of the laws and aren't aware of the penalties. They should just repeal those, make it easier on everyone.

Until you've dealt with an unintentional or intentional RF interference case with them, you really don't know their value.

Once the friendly guy with the $300K van full of gear helps find the problem, you're all for it.

Problem is, like all government agencies, for every guy with a van who knows how to use it, there's ten bureaucrats getting paid to do very little.

I keep dreading the day John retires around here...

And there's plenty of laws that apply to people that they don't know about. The syndrome is called "Everything is Illegal".

Makes it easier to keep people in line if they do something the politicians weren't smart enough to ban. There is not a person reading this who hasn't broken at least one law this week.

 

[CT Arrow]

LOL, the FCC can't even deal with the thousands of telemarketing complaints which if followed up on would produce $$$$ in fines. The FCC simply does not have the staff nor the budget to pursue minor issues such as cell phone usage on aircraft. Honestly, the cell carriers could care less.

 

[Henning]

SO are you saying that being "On" is operating?
I guess I need to pick up a copy of 47CFR now...not on my to do list.

Correct, any phone that is 'on' is operating, how do you think it knows to ring? Personally I turn them off for the reason Ted cites, so I have battery when I land. Besides, one of the nifty things about flying is I get a break from all that.

 

[us AAirways]

They still use the same frequencies as the old analog.

There is not a single device on the current commercial market that does not violate FCC regs when used in flight. I've seen one air-card that was specifically designed to not use those frequencies.

For regulations, let's look at 47 CFR:


OK, but what is a "cellular telephone", and that's the whole "only applies to 800 MHz band" thing, right?

Now, let's look at the specs for the iPhone specifically:
http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html


The iPhone operates in the 800 MHz spectrum, and is thus prohibited.

How is one supposed to use the geo referenced charts if it is "illegal" to have it on in flight? Doesn't the Iphone's gps use cell towers for it;s position?

 

[ChrisK]

Doesn't the Iphone's gps use cell towers for it;s position?

Location based services use both towers and GPS satellites for positioning information. The GPS on the iPhone has the capability to act without tower reception.

 

[skyking3286]

I'm surprised that no on has mentioned that leaving your cell phone on is becoming a way for CAP and state search parties to find you if you are forced down. More crashes seem to be found due to tracing down the cell pings than ELT's in the lower 48. I helped with a search last year and the first thing they started to do is run a cell phone tower ping search to get the search area narrowed down. For that reason and the fact that I use CloudAhoy's really neat app for flight tracking (why would they have that if a lot of pilots weren't using the cell phone on during flight????) the iPhone is on and on charge. If we really were swamping the cell phone towers with signals, I think after fifteen years, someone would have read an article in a magazine or newspaper about it. It's been long enough where it would have surfaced.

 

[mikea]

Cell phones do not transmit unless a phone call is initiated. Otherwise the battery would not last. To transmit the phone needs a handshake from a cell first. The problem while airborne is that the phone can not get a handshake due to the mutual interference at the phone due to it receiving multiple cells at the same time. So if you do not see the bars on the phone it will never transmit.

Yeah? Exactly how do you think the radio towers know your phone is in range when a call for you comes in?