grass strip landings?

[sierra]

In reading other threads, I noticed a theme of "grass landings not permitted by my FBO" etc.

I started my flying in the great midwest, cornfields and grass strips abounding. One of my first landings was on a grass strip (in a cherokee 140, no less). I like grass landings in my AA5 (but then i have naked wheels).

What is the big deal with landing on the grass? am i missing some obvious thing here?

 

[RogerT]

What is the big deal with landing on the grass? am i missing some obvious thing here?

The main thing I can think of from an FBO perspective is they can be
rough sometimes and that's hard on the avionics and instruments.

We have a grass runway at our airport. I haven't used it lately because when
I've taxied down it a couple times it just seemed pretty rough. I used to use
it quite a bit back in the 70s when we had our 152. I may have to try it
in the Warrior some time. If I came back and there was a real strong
crosswind I'm sure I'd go ahead and land on it.

 

[jdwatson]

Naked ??!!? I think the problem is if the field and the technique isn't up to snuff most "nose draggers" will end up with an insurance claim to file rather than a nice landing.

 

[Ken Ibold]

When I first moved to Orlando, I was in the FBO checking out the airplane selection one Sunday morning when a call came in. A renter had taken the FBO's C-210 to a nearby resort with a grass strip (Chalet Suzanne) to have brunch. The nose gear hit a hole and collapsed. That's what they're afraid of.

 

[CFIse]

The exposure on grass strips is higher for a number of reasons. Rougher, tend to be shorter, tend to be surrounded by trees etc. So sometimes it's the FBO implementing it's own risk management, sometimes it's the insurance company (and yes, sometimes it really is, like for us).

FBO's have lot's of rules intended to limit their exposure by, they hope, reducing the likelihodd of an accident or incident. We were just discussing local FBO's limits on VFR pilots distance from home (200NM, 300NM etc.). Nobody has any good reason why they picked the number they did - but they'd seen that limitation in some other agreements and decided it sounded good to them. It's almost all voodoo......

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Naked ??!!? I think the problem is if the field and the technique isn't up to snuff most "nose draggers" will end up with an insurance claim to file rather than a nice landing.

I've flown onto and/or others have onto the roughest strips in the world with nosedraggers and with no problems.

 

[waldo]

Boy, you guys have me worried now . I am planning my first "real" landing on a grass strip. I have just over 300 hours but never,personally, landed on one. I have a Cherokee 180 with the wheel pants. Any chance of ripping them off? I am planning to land at 1J9 Fort Walton Beach, FL. Anyone landed there lately? I called the airport manager and he said that it was a little rough but not too bad. Construction is going on on the north end and said it has fresh clay and the south end is supposed to have bare spots and soft sand B) . I am about scared to try it. Any suggestions?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Boy, you guys have me worried now . I am planning my first "real" landing on a grass strip. I have just over 300 hours but never,personally, landed on one. I have a Cherokee 180 with the wheel pants. Any chance of ripping them off? I am planning to land at 1J9 Fort Walton Beach, FL. Anyone landed there lately? I called the airport manager and he said that it was a little rough but not too bad. Construction is going on on the north end and said it has fresh clay and the south end is supposed to have bare spots and soft sand B) . I am about scared to try it. Any suggestions?

Sometimes a stone will get kicked from the nosewheel into and between the wheel pant and shred a tire, but it's very rare. Just try to land soft, as usual.

But wheel pants are soooo pretty...

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Boy, you guys have me worried now . I am planning my first "real" landing on a grass strip. I have just over 300 hours but never,personally, landed on one. I have a Cherokee 180 with the wheel pants. Any chance of ripping them off? I am planning to land at 1J9 Fort Walton Beach, FL. Anyone landed there lately? I called the airport manager and he said that it was a little rough but not too bad. Construction is going on on the north end and said it has fresh clay and the south end is supposed to have bare spots and soft sand B) . I am about scared to try it. Any suggestions?

1. Get grass strip practice flying dual with a CFI that has actually flown from grass.

2. Walk the intended landing strip; compare the surface to the practice strip above.

3. If #2 is impractical, call the intended landing field and ask if another aircraft of similar make/model uses the runway.

4. #3 would usually be sufficient for me, but if you still have concerns ask the FBO if you can have the phone number of the aircraft owner in #3. Call and ask for local advice.

 

[John J]

The biggest problem we have here on the Eastern Shore is watching out for Ground Hog or Wood Chuck Holes. Fly over the runway and check for fresh dirt dug up. Also look for water pooling on the runway if there has been resent rain fall. Also check the neighboring fields for cows. Other wise a soft field landing should work out great.

John J

 

[Dave Siciliano]

A lot more variables on grass strips: drainage may not be good, Landing conditions substantially change when wet or muddy; golphers; may not be lit at night; traction not as good; etc.

As with everything else, with proper technique and good conditions, there should be little problem on a well prepared strip. Get the nose wheel off (or keep it off when landing). Get into ground effect and wheels off quickly on takeoff. Don't go into a grass strip with a plane that's not suitable (unless well prepared in good conditions).

At Gastons, it's well prepared and fairly long (3,400 I believe) with a good approach and clear area after departure. There are occassional golpher holes. I wouldn't worry much here if conditions are good. Last year, it had rained pretty hard before we arrived; we diverted to Mountain Home and took a shuttle. I'll probably do the same this year if I take the P-Baron; it's just not a grass strip plane and the take off roll is pretty long.

Best,

Dave

 

[waldo]

Thanks for the friendly advice!

I have had lots of soft field practice on a hard field (not real practice). I can usually set her down without waking up the children. Of course they can sleep through a tonado . For THIS particlular landing I don't have many options other than go/no-go. I have offered to fly a friend from BTR - 1J9 and drop him off next Saturday morning. We are debating landing there or getting his wife to drive 20-25 miles to a paved runway just north. 1J9 is right off the beach so I'm sure it has lots of sand (great for the bearings, brakes and air intake). It is 2100' so that should be plenty long enough so set down on the northern half that is supposed to be hard. For some reason the landings are done on 36 and the departures are on 18 (no matter which way the wind is blowing). I suspect a tail wind landing in the early morning (something ELSE that I'm not too happy about). I'm not concerned about the takeoff at all. I have a strong engine and all the gap seals. She litterally JUMPS into the air.

 

[maximus]

I love grass fields providing they are in good condition and not soft. It was great being able to learn on a grass runway. As a student your landings arn't amazing and the grass can be quite forgiving.

 

[fgcason]

Boy, you guys have me worried now . I am planning my first "real" landing on a grass strip. I have just over 300 hours but never,personally, landed on one. I have a Cherokee 180 with the wheel pants. Any chance of ripping them off? I am planning to land at 1J9 Fort Walton Beach, FL. Anyone landed there lately? I called the airport manager and he said that it was a little rough but not too bad. Construction is going on on the north end and said it has fresh clay and the south end is supposed to have bare spots and soft sand B) . I am about scared to try it. Any suggestions?

It really all depends on the runway you're going to use. Know what you're landing on. Swamps, horrendus bumps, groundhog holes, steel pipes sticking out of the ground in the middle of the runway (actually seen that once) or 5ft deep grass will ruin or at least shake up your day. Without walking it, I wouldn't be running off into what they're calling soft sand though.

Our family Cherokee 180 was based on our farm's grass runway. Sometimes with wheel pants, sometimes without. Never had a problem. In 20+ years I don't recall as much as a single crack on the pants. Grass stains yes, broken never. I don't think I ever learned normal takeoff/landings properly though. Everything is short soft field to me. Lift off early and accelerate in ground effect, touch down at Vso with zero sink rate.

IMHO: If the surface is reasonably good, there's nothing to be afraid of on grass. Then again, I grew up on grass.

Safe flying...

 

[T Bone]

There are occassional golpher holes

Fore!

{Ducks and runs for cover...... }

 

[wsuffa]

Fore!

{Ducks and runs for cover...... }

And I keep reliving "Groundhog Day" all over again.

 

[fgcason]

Fore!

Critter holes + runways = 30.06 + scope

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Flew up to the GAMI folks today to give George a gift for working on the T-34 spar issue. During the course of things, I mentioned to a guy that lives on a grass strip the issues mentioning that to my insurance company raised. He said his broker informed him only one of the major insurers would cover an A-36 landing on grass; so, those folks sure see issues with some aircraft.

Don't know if I mentioned it, but when I renewed this year, I put "occasional landings on well prepared grass strips". One major insurer refused to quote. One raise the premium proposal. Fun, huh??

Best,



Dave

 

[Flyboy]

In reading other threads, I noticed a theme of "grass landings not permitted by my FBO" etc.

I started my flying in the great midwest, cornfields and grass strips abounding. One of my first landings was on a grass strip (in a cherokee 140, no less). I like grass landings in my AA5 (but then i have naked wheels).

What is the big deal with landing on the grass? am i missing some obvious thing here?

When I joined our flying club the first thing I noticed was the line in the by-laws not allowing operations on grass strips. I talked to one of the owners and the said they wouldn't have a problem with me doing it since I had a lot of grass take offs and landings. But most pilots now adays had very little grass experience so they limited the use of the fields for most of the reasons stated by others here. Funny though I got the impression that the main reason was they didn't want the airplines dirty.

 

[dogman]

I think many pilots are not taught to land correctly for short soft and rough.

I was trained at a small private owned strip in NW MO (78Y look it up iT IS ACTULLY ONLY 14FT WIDE) many small short grass strips around that we used frequently. But not until we learned to land Power OFF properly and keep the nose out of the dirt. Every landing is handled dead Stick plowed corn field.

So if many people can not land on a grass strip without bending the nose how are these same pilots going to make an off field landing and not nose it over.

How many pictures have you seen with the bent nose gear aircraft laying in a perfectly good Golf course!!!

If you get Proper training you can take a nose wheel in many places you you can a tail wheel.

 

[Jim Chumley]

I think there may be some concern about debris hidden by the grass that could be picked up by the prop, causing damage to the prop or empennage.



There are other caveats, as well. As a freshly minted pilot, I took my young son in a Tomahawk for an excursion. I flew across Tampa Bay to a grass strip (Manatee) where our club instructors had obtain the owner’s permission for students to practice their soft-field techniques. I had been in and out of there many times. On this occasion, I observed a conventional gear aircraft departing. I made an unconscious assumption that I would have no problem practicing a soft-field landing. However, upon touchdown, I felt an abnormal sensation – it was not a rolling sensation, but one of mushing. The field was still soggy from the past week’s rains. I knew I should abort immediately. Too late. I could not achieve the speed necessary to get the nose up and depart safely. The small wheels, conventionally arranged gear, T-tail, and low horsepower were the wrong combination for this field at this time. I was firmly in the grasp of a grassy but muddy, sloshy runway. I could see having to wait until the field dried enough (days) for someone to retrieve the aircraft.



I pulled onto a paved apron by the hangars and wiped most of the mud off the underside of the aircraft with my hands. The owner soon arrived…I knew he would be mad about the ruts I had put in his runway. Instead, he showed me where the stretches of firmer runway existed and after two more tries, I was able to achieve take off; I don’t think I have been back since. That was in 1980. I was experienced with grass. I knew the airstrip and thought it safe for my use. I was wrong. This may have something to do with an insurer’s concern.



Jim

 

[bbchien]

I think many pilots are not taught to land correctly for short soft and rough.

If you get Proper training you can take a nose wheel in many places you you can a tail wheel.

I would say "some places you can take a tailwheel". Have owned both. Teach in both.

Soft and rough, maybe. Short, soft, and rough, No.

 

[gismo]

However, upon touchdown, I felt an abnormal sensation – it was not a rolling sensation, but one of mushing. The field was still soggy from the past week’s rains.

You made the right call when you abandoned any ideas of completing go portion of the "touch and go". When you get bogged down, there's no problem stopping, but a takeoff attempt can put you into the fence and/or trees.

One thing that's very important when landing on a grass runway is to know it's condition. Some folks won't land on grass until they've walked the runway. While that's a bit difficult if you are arriving by air, there's usually someone you can call to find out what to expect.

 

[Diana]

One thing that's very important when landing on a grass runway is to know it's condition. Some folks won't land on grass until they've walked the runway. While that's a bit difficult if you are arriving by air, there's usually someone you can call to find out what to expect.

I encourage people to walk our runways first before flying in, but that rarely happens.

I also encourage pilots to call us first if we've had rain. One day I heard the sound of a CJ-6 on short final to our farm and ran to the radio to tell him not to land. Caught him just in time. One runway has poor drainage and after the rains we had the day before, he would not have been able to take off again if he would have landed.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Ahhh, Diana. You're place can be like a spider web!! Did ya know who was landin? Maybe you wanted them stuck there for awhile (kidding--of course).

Dave

 

[Diana]

Ahhh, Diana. You're place can be like a spider web!! Did ya know who was landin?

Can't mistake the beautiful sound of a radial engine, even when it's throttled back.

Maybe you wanted them stuck there for awhile (kidding--of course).

Well, it would have made a pretty wind tee.

 

[dogman]

I would say "some places you can take a tailwheel". Have owned both. Teach in both.

Soft and rough, maybe. Short, soft, and rough, No.

Yes some would be a better word to use.

I should also say I would not try the short ,soft, rough That just begging for problems

I also should say in either tric or t.w. I would make darn sure of the conditions where ever I was going to land on grass. I am very careful when deciding to go into grass. If I can't find out any info I do not try it!! I do not have as much experience like many of you, but have seen that even if you can land doesn't mean you can taxi or even move. TW or Tric.

Doesn't take much muck to get stuck.

These forums are great I have learned so much. Thanks to all!!

 

[bbchien]

Yes some would be a better word to use.

I should also say I would not try the short ,soft, rough That just begging for problems

I would make darn sure of the conditions where ever I was going to land on grass. Doesn't take much muck to get stuck.

These forums are great I have learned so much. Thanks to all!!

Dogman: I'll share a gentleman's secret from the old days. When we used to fly to Gadabout Gaddis on the Kennebeck River in Maine, we used to carry a 1/2 brick. You paint your tail # on it as a courtesy.

Over the questionable field with no a/c parked visibly (and nobody monitoring unicom at the mom and pop restaurant) you dropped the brick and watched for a splash. If it didn't splash, you might land. If you don't land and can't pick it up, when you get down you call mom and pop who retreive the brick. Now you are obligated to go eat lunch there the next time.

I don't know if mom and pop are still there. It's been 25 years.

 

[John J]

When I was working at a sod field airport( I was 16 -17 years old) one of my everyday jobs was to "Walk the Runway" and check for ground hog holes and softness. Also there was a field next to the airport with dairy cows and I check the fences for we had a lot of fabric planes on the "ramp" Cows love fabric. Those cows were always breaking out so I had to herd back to their field. I would carry flags out to mark the holes. In the winter months I had to close the airport down many days for the thawing and refreezing. We had no unicom and yes pilots who flew over looked real carefully before landing. I earned my first hundred hours flying out of this little field. This was overr 45 years ago and had a blast learning and working at the little airport.

Bruce,I do enjoy the brick story. I remember pilots carrying a stone and in the fly over would toss it out the window to see if it sankin the sod. If it sank they continued on. If not, they would fly in and swap stories.

John J

 

[Tom-D]

you dropped the brick and watched for a splash. If it didn't splash, you might land. If you don't land and can't pick it up, QUOTE]



Rought short soft--- no problems that is why these folks do such a great business.

http://www.akbushwheel.com/

 

[Toby]

That's a great story, Bruce. Did you ever drop the brick and have it splash?

 

[bbchien]

That's a great story, Bruce. Did you ever drop the brick and have it splash?

Fer Shure.

 

[Eamon]

One thing that's very important when landing on a grass runway is to know it's condition. Some folks won't land on grass until they've walked the runway. While that's a bit difficult if you are arriving by air, there's usually someone you can call to find out what to expect.

Amen.

I went to visit a friend in Cleveland. I picked her up at Lakefront & flew across to Sandusky and back. On the way back, I stopped at a small airport for some cheap self serve fuel (4G8). As I turned final, I saw a tractor mowing the grass next to the runway with his right wheel on the runway & his back toward me. To the right was a great looking parallel grass strip 3000 ft long. It was a nice clear sunny day, so I went for it. When my mains touched down it felt like my tail was snagged by a tail hook. It took a lot of power to taxi. after I made it to pavement I jumped out & my whole plane was covered in mud

What I didn't know is that it had rained for 4 days straight there & this was the first dry day.


Reason #12 for having a three blade prop

 

[Diana]

Reason #12 for having a three blade prop

Eamon, what were reasons #1 through #11?

 

[Eamon]

Eamon, what were reasons #1 through #11?

1) It turns heads.
2) It is Sexy
3) ground clearance
4) It is Sexy
5) Low end power
6) It is Sexy
7) more area to rub with you hands
8) It is Sexy
9) quieter
10) It is Sexy
11) easier to hand prop

 

[Diana]

1) It turns heads.
2) It is Sexy
3) ground clearance
4) It is Sexy
5) Low end power
6) It is Sexy
7) more area to rub with you hands
8) It is Sexy
9) quieter
10) It is Sexy
11) easier to hand prop

I want one now!

 

[Toby]

1) It turns heads.
2) It is Sexy
3) ground clearance
4) It is Sexy
5) Low end power
6) It is Sexy
7) more area to rub with you hands
8) It is Sexy
9) quieter
10) It is Sexy
11) easier to hand prop

#12 should be "It is sexy."

 

[sierra]

#12 should be "It is sexy."

only if the pattern doesn't change!

(this is Eamon we're talking about)

 

[Eamon]

#12 should be "It is sexy."

Geez, you are right.........

I guess they will be reprocessing my MENSA card soon

 

[Eamon]

only if the pattern doesn't change!

(this is Eamon we're talking about)

A leper doesn't change it's spots.........(I guess they just fall off)

Ol a Cheater doesn't change his pattern.......... something like that.




It's only a flesh wound !!!!!!!!!