Grass strip departure

Would it have been better if the pilot executed a soft field t/o? i.e., stick all the way back until it starts flying?
 
MSPAviator said:
Would it have been better if the pilot executed a soft field t/o? i.e., stick all the way back until it starts flying?
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No -- it's a tailwheel. Better to get the tail up and remove that rolling friction.

Stick back in a TW adds unnecessary drag that would extend the takeoff distance.

There is a sweet spot between too early tail lift and too late -- it's best to practice a few times and figure out what that feels, sounds, and looks like.
 
MSPAviator said:
Would it have been better if the pilot executed a soft field t/o? i.e., stick all the way back until it starts flying?
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Never flown a Stinson, so I'm not sure what they recommend, but generally you will accelarate faster with the tail in the air than keeping it on the ground.
 
dmccormack said:
No -- it's a tailwheel. Better to get the tail up and remove that rolling friction.

Stick back in a TW adds unnecessary drag that would extend the takeoff distance.

There is a sweet spot between too early tail lift and too late -- it's best to practice a few times and figure out what that feels, sounds, and looks like.
Click to expand...

For a soft field my technique is to raise the tail right away and then keep the TW no more than 6" (preferably less) above the ground until the mains come off. Then it's the standard soft field lowering of th nose to stay in ground effect until reaching climb speed. Keeping the tail down but not touching reduces the weight on the mains which then reduces drag and ground roll distance. In a TW it'd easy to raise the tail high enough to actually generate negative lift on takeoff.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Never flown a Stinson, so I'm not sure what they recommend, but generally you will accelarate faster with the tail in the air than keeping it on the ground.
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In the video I can see some tail up elevator fairly early in the run but it looks to me like the tail came up late and was then held too high for most of the takeoff. Assuming this Stinson had flaps I think one notch would have helped as well. AFaIK all 108's had them.
 
gismo said:
For a soft field my technique is to raise the tail right away and then keep the TW no more than 6" (preferably less) above the ground until the mains come off. Then it's the standard soft field lowering of th nose to stay in ground effect until reaching climb speed. Keeping the tail down but not touching reduces the weight on the mains which then reduces drag and ground roll distance. In a TW it'd easy to raise the tail high enough to actually generate negative lift on takeoff.
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This is somewhat airplane dependent -- In the Pre-War Chief the rudder is mostly blanked out with the tail very low.

I'm sure I lift it a bit more than six inches in order to have rudder authority. I've never measured it but the attitude is a bit more level than say at minimal speed touchdown.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Never flown a Stinson, so I'm not sure what they recommend, but generally you will accelarate faster with the tail in the air than keeping it on the ground.
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When you trim to best climb speed the aircraft will do its thing better than you can. Full power and rudder to keep it on the runway. let it fly away.

that works better in every aircraft I've flown, and it was the technique used by the test pilots at Cessna to set the numbers for the POH.
 
Tom-D said:
Hot day, High DA, 3 fatties in Stinson 108-3, on VanCouver Island. he used the correct technique to get it off.

read all about it here

http://www.pacificnorthwestflying.com/index.php?topic=7365.0
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Not sure where on that page it says the technique was correct. I'd certainly have used one notch of flaps, and the elevator was held for a nose low position waaay too long IMO. Get the tail off the ground quickly, but then let the plane fly off as soon as possible.

Ryan
 
I see what looks to be the TW hitting several times starting about halfway through the video. Seems like maybe he realized he was in trouble and pulled back trying to force it into in the air before he had enough speed. Probably made the situation worse.
 
shenanigans said:
I see what looks to be the TW hitting several times starting about halfway through the video. Seems like maybe she realized he was in trouble and pulled back trying to force it into in the air before he had enough speed. Probably made the situation worse.
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Fixed that for ya.
 
Quoted from a different page.......

Oh dear... Have to 'fess up. Things do come back to haunt one, don't they? This was me, Selina, in GYYF. Of course I have already received this video a few times in the last couple of days. I think it was 1999 or 2000.

What can I say? It was hot, I had 2 passengers and thought I knew more than I did about short field takeoffs. This little field is just outside of Victoria B.C. and once we were in the air we headed straight to Nanaimo's LONG runway to land and assess damages. The only victims, other than my pride, were the gear fairings as I did a bit of landscaping on the way out.

What was I thinking? I sure didn't use correct short field procedures and quickly ran out of room. I knew I was in trouble and also knew I was committed to the takeoff. As we lifted off my right seat passenger, a more experienced pilot (as was the second passenger in the back), was quick enough to yell at me to push the nose down and was ready to do so himself if I didn't. That instinct to pull up is strong especially with the tops of the trees coming at you.

Just about the best learning experience I've every had... And probably the scariest.

Coincidentally I met the owner of this little field this past weekend at a fly-in and we had a little reminisce about my "incident". The field is still in use although I think they have removed a few more of the trees at the end. I don't think I'll be tackling it again although a little voice inside says perhaps I should go back without passengers and do it properly!

end quote.
 
This is also why you should utilize ALL available runway. Notice at the start how far ahead of the end of the threshold she was. "Runway behind you" is in the same category as fuel left in the truck.
 
This falls into the "good" mistake category.

Never ideal, but of all the things that could have happened, they didn't. I bet she is a better pilot now, because of it.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
This is also why you should utilize ALL available runway. Notice at the start how far ahead of the end of the threshold she was. "Runway behind you" is in the same category as fuel left in the truck.
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In this instance, some fuel left in the truck may have helped.
 
Tom-D said:
What was I thinking? I sure didn't use correct short field procedures and quickly ran out of room. I knew I was in trouble and also knew I was committed to the takeoff. As we lifted off my right seat passenger, a more experienced pilot (as was the second passenger in the back), was quick enough to yell at me to push the nose down and was ready to do so himself if I didn't. That instinct to pull up is strong especially with the tops of the trees coming at you.
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I'm not surprised to hear that... watching that clip, as it became clear they were going to trim the bushes at the end, I was saying aloud "hold the nose down!!!" :eek: Would've been a shame to see a nice 108 go into the drink (not to mention the human factor).

I must also agree with the assessment that there was more runway available, and it should have been used. Sounds like the lesson stuck with this pilot, though- sometimes that's what it takes to really understand why certain things require certain procedures.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
This is also why you should utilize ALL available runway. Notice at the start how far ahead of the end of the threshold she was. "Runway behind you" is in the same category as fuel left in the truck.
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This statement reminds me of the scene in "The Spirit of St. Louis" movie where they tow the plane into position at the end of a muddy runway. They talked all about how tough it would be to get enough speed in the mush, but then didn't tow the plane all the way to the end of the runway. It must have been in the script that way, because I can't imagine ANY pilot not wanting every inch of the runway in that situation.

Doc
 
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