Graphing Calculator

[chucky]

I think there is real value in using computers at a certain point in calculus education. Figuring out how to solve derivatives, integrals, and differential equations numerically actually exposes a great deal about how derivatives and integrals work 'under the hood', that gets hidden when we learn the rules for polynomials, trig functions, exponentials, and so forth. It certainly helped me. Further, being able to visualize complicated functions and equations can also really help. But this is an argument for using computers, and learning some programing. I'm not sure what pedagogical benefit graphing calculators bring.

 

[shenanigans]

I had to use one for high school in the 90s. I found it actually was very helpful, but then I had a good teacher who spent a lot of time worrying about the proper role of the calculators in teaching. He was also a fan of "paying your dues" so we did things the long way too.

The calculator didn't replace learning how to do the math, but it was useful to be able to visualize some things without wasting a lot of time doing tedious calculations and graphing by hand.
There are better options out there, but they may not be practical or cost effective for a high school class.

In my case, it was important to use the model they recommended, but that really depends on how it's being used. The best source of that information is the teacher, or a student who took the class with that teacher. Also consider that she'll probably need it for classes in future years as well.

 

[Ted]

Probably what I'm going to do. We just have to confirm with the school what it is they require. Jeez when I went to school it was no calculators on tests I had pencils and one of those BIG trapazoid looking erasers.

Right, but when you did that the entire test was probably one problem with a lot of basic math. While there is value in that, the reality is that in the real world I don't do math in my head for work, I mainly just do it to keep myself sharp. My teachers (who were pretty good ones) would make us do enough by hand to make sure we knew how to do it by hand and understood it, but then we were able to do more problems, and more different kinds of problems (applying the principles in multiple different ways) on the test.

It's a different way of going about it. What's more valuable, doing it all from scratch or doing it with some learning aids in multiple different ways? I think there's value in both. You want to be able to apply the principles in any manner that gets thrown at you, but you also want to be able to do them manually and understand them.

Honestly, my favorite part for graphing calculators is adding up large simple math items. When you get into long strings of (a+b)((c+d)/e) etc. it really is nice to be able to type that all out and see any errors before you hit enter. To be honest, the vast majority of math that I use as an engineer is complex strings of simple math. I don't think I've used any calculus or differential equations since I graduated college.

Edit: I have used calculus and differential equations, but not directly. It's all been embedded in programs I'm using that someone else who likes that stuff more than me figured out.

 

[AdamZ]

Right, but when you did that the entire test was probably one problem with a lot of basic math. While there is value in that, the reality is that in the real world I don't do math in my head for work, I mainly just do it to keep myself sharp. My teachers (who were pretty good ones) would make us do enough by hand to make sure we knew how to do it by hand and understood it, but then we were able to do more problems, and more different kinds of problems (applying the principles in multiple different ways) on the test.

It's a different way of going about it. What's more valuable, doing it all from scratch or doing it with some learning aids in multiple different ways? I think there's value in both. You want to be able to apply the principles in any manner that gets thrown at you, but you also want to be able to do them manually and understand them.

Honestly, my favorite part for graphing calculators is adding up large simple math items. When you get into long strings of (a+b)((c+d)/e) etc. it really is nice to be able to type that all out and see any errors before you hit enter. To be honest, the vast majority of math that I use as an engineer is complex strings of simple math. I don't think I've used any calculus or differential equations since I graduated college.

Well in HS I hated math. I actually had a math phobia. My stomach would turn before class and I'd look at equations on the board like a deer in the headlights, The frustration and fear really were palpable for me. Of course I was AP Social Studies, Languages etc but math ugh. The irony is that I learned to enjoy math when I learned to fly. Using the E6B was a lot of fun. I loved doing the calculating and seeing if my calculations for time and fuel burn were on target. It actually became enjoyable. Since then I have really wanted to grab a HS Math teacher by the collar and say HEY here is an answer to help bright kids who have problems with math. Still working on that

 

[Matthew]

I didn't like the way the jr-high/high-school math textbooks taught "to the calculator". The emphasis in some sections is calculator training, rather than problem solving.

But my kids survived it.

 

[ScottM]

To be honest, the vast majority of math that I use as an engineer is complex strings of simple math. I don't think I've used any calculus or differential equations since I graduated college.

I think it depends on your field. When I was doing instrumentation work for a structural mechanics lab, I did mostly simple math and let the computers do the tough stuff. But in digital comms a lot is pretty complex math. But even then the only time the calcs come out is to do the simple math for specific cases. Otherwise generally what you have are large equations with many variables and you work with those

 

[Ted]

Well in HS I hated math. I actually had a math phobia. My stomach would turn before class and I'd look at equations on the board like a deer in the headlights, The frustration and fear really were palpable for me. Of course I was AP Social Studies, Languages etc but math ugh. The irony is that I learned to enjoy math when I learned to fly. Using the E6B was a lot of fun. I loved doing the calculating and seeing if my calculations for time and fuel burn were on target. It actually became enjoyable. Since then I have really wanted to grab a HS Math teacher by the collar and say HEY here is an answer to help bright kids who have problems with math. Still working on that

The hard part with teaching anything is figuring out a way to connect with the student and get him or her to enjoy the learning process. This is very difficult for math. In your case, putting it with flying worked. In my case, automotive comparisons worked (this was especially true when I got to heat transfer, physics, calculus, etc.). The problem is that answer won't be the same for most kids, and teachers also are typically not doing one-on-one, so they have to teach to the middle of the class. It's a tough question.

Although one could also make the argument that in life you don't always get to work on fun things, so suck it up and deal.

I think it depends on your field. When I was doing instrumentation work for a structural mechanics lab, I did mostly simple math and let the computers do the tough stuff. But in digital comms a lot is pretty complex math. But even then the only time the calcs come out is to do the simple math for specific cases. Otherwise generally what you have are large equations with many variables and you work with those

True and I should have specified that. It will be heavily dependent on what your field is. When I was in college, one of my friends (another mechanical engineer) said to go back and learn differential equations better. Reason? He said I'd use them every day of my life. Nope, hasn't been the case for me. In his field, though, it is necessary.

 

[Ghery]

As an engineer I have never needed a graphing calculator. I sort of had one once, a HP28, that could do a few graphs, but never used it for that. If I needed a graph, I used the computer to plot the data.

+1

Droid + the Droid48 app...sorry, I went to engineering school and learned the HP48 way back when...RPN rules!

HP48, way back? How about "I remember when the HP35 came out when I was in college". And I couldn't afford it, so I kept using my Pickett N4-ES double log slide rule (which I still have and use now and then just to pick on the 'kids' in the office).

I still have an old HP-55 at home. And a 41CX that I use regularly. I got the 55 when I went to college.....

I am jealous of your 41cx. I still use a 15C at work. I have at home a 28S and several other HP calculators. I always wanted a 41C or CX. I looked at eBay to buy an old one and they are going for $400 in good condition.

Oh, and RPN RULZ!!!

I've got an HP-41CV that I bought new when I worked for Martin Marrietta. Works great, just have to go to Radio Shack every few years for a new set of N cells.

And about RPN? I couldn't agree more.

 

[shenanigans]

I didn't like the way the jr-high/high-school math textbooks taught "to the calculator". The emphasis in some sections is calculator training, rather than problem solving.

That is a serious danger and I'm not sure a lot of teachers and book authors are really well trained in appropriate use of technology. The results of that sort of teaching end up hurting students later on.

There's a professor at the university here who doesn't allow use of calculators on exams. Problems are graded on the setup. Students are just expected to show the work up until the point where you would plug the numbers into the calculator. It's actually less work because you skip the punching numbers into the calculator part (and you avoid making mistakes entering numbers). But students absolutely hate it. They complain about it all semester long and blame that policy for their poor grades.

Thing is, you'd have to do exactly the same setup even if you had a calculator. And the calculator isn't going to help if you don't know how to set up the problem. But they are so used to just punching numbers in and getting a number out that they don't know how to think about a problem. Somewhere in their education they were allowed to focus more on button pushing than thinking and many of them can't get out of that mindset.

 

[ScottM]

HP48, way back? How about "I remember when the HP35 came out when I was in college". And I couldn't afford it, so I kept using my Pickett N4-ES double log slide rule (which I still have and use now and then just to pick on the 'kids' in the office).

This pic was taken just a few seconds ago at my desk. Yes it is a Pickett slide rule, I do not recall the model number. The HP15C's logo fell off years ago and I plopped on a Motorola cell phone escutcheon that would have been for an ETACS brick style phone.

 

[Ken Ibold]

The school says to get a particular brand and model of calculator because the textbooks they will use for math and science are written with that particular calculator in mind. Some schools will rent or loan the calculators to you.

The other issue is that the teachers teach the kids how to use it as part of the class, and just want to focus on one model.

 

[CJones]

I don't remember much of the Calc that was taught in high school, but the TI-82 did introduce me to light programming/scripting. Once I figured out how to do the process the 'long' way (first on paper, then on calc), I would write a program to do it even faster.

When I hit Diff Eq in college, I decided to 'upgrade' to the TI-83. I never got quite as handy with the -83 as I was with the -82. I ended up leaving Computer Engineering before I ever got good with it.

If I can dig up the old -83, you're more than welcome to it, Adam. I'll even hand deliver it to 6Y9 for ya'.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

There's a professor at the university here who doesn't allow use of calculators on exams. Problems are graded on the setup. Students are just expected to show the work up until the point where you would plug the numbers into the calculator. It's actually less work because you skip the punching numbers into the calculator part (and you avoid making mistakes entering numbers). But students absolutely hate it. They complain about it all semester long and blame that policy for their poor grades.

See, that's the student's fault. Any halfway intelligent college student checks places like ratemyprofessors.com long before they sign up for classes. Its very easy to who the good professors and bad professors are too, as the good ones get their classes full up quickly, and the bad ones get the people who wait to enroll.

 

[Matthew]

See, that's the student's fault. Any halfway intelligent college student checks places like ratemyprofessors.com long before they sign up for classes. Its very easy to who the good professors and bad professors are too, as the good ones get their classes full up quickly, and the bad ones get the people who wait to enroll.

My daughter complains that, at her school, they don't publish the names of their calc professors with the schedule. You can't use ratemyprofessors.com because you don't know who'll you'll get until the first day of class.

 

[Ken Ibold]

My daughter complains that, at her school, they don't publish the names of their calc professors with the schedule. You can't use ratemyprofessors.com because you don't know who'll you'll get until the first day of class.

And in high schools, which is what the OP was referencing, you can't choose 'em anyway. You get who you get, cuz there's probably only one anyway.

 

[Ghery]

This pic was taken just a few seconds ago at my desk. Yes it is a Pickett slide rule, I do not recall the model number. The HP15C's logo fell off years ago and I plopped on a Motorola cell phone escutcheon that would have been for an ETACS brick style phone.

I can't post a picture of mine because it's at home and I'm on Kauai!

 

[wsuffa]

erasers are for people who make mistakes

Do you do crosswords in pen?

 

[somorris]

Be careful with displaying your antiques. I went through engineering school with a slide rule. It was a 6" K&E that I could keep clipped to the front of one of my notebooks, etc. I brought it to work a few years ago to show some of the young guys how we had to do things back in the old days. I left it in my desk and it disappeared. I hate that. It had no real value to anyone except me.

 

[ScottM]

WooHoo A couple of days ago I located a in great condition HP 41C and it arrived today!!! I gotta buy some N-cell batteries to try it out.

 

[astanley]

TI-82, TI-83, TI-85, and TI-92 here (I hacked on TI calcs back in the day; it's how I learned assembly).

I also own a HP-48gxc and a HP-12c Platinum. Carry the Platinum with me every day, everywhere I go. RPN > ALG; this is especially true for doing complicated calculations.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Ghery]

WooHoo A couple of days ago I located a in great condition HP 41C and it arrived today!!! I gotta buy some N-cell batteries to try it out.

I get mine from Radio Shack. Every few years.

 

[JeffDG]

WooHoo A couple of days ago I located a in great condition HP 41C and it arrived today!!! I gotta buy some N-cell batteries to try it out.

I'd offer you my old 48S, but it doesn't work anymore, and I keep it for sentimental reasons...is it uber-geeky of me to keep a calculator for sentimental reasons?

 

[CJones]

I dug out my old TI-89 and brought it to work to keep in my desk. Man.. I forgot how to use the darn thing.. It took me 15 mins to figure out how to clear the home screen. It will come in handy if I start figuring some standard deviations, etc. (if I can figure out how to do it).

We had a couple of engineers in here a few weeks ago work on some LMS stuff with us. They both had graphing calculators. When they left, my Ops Mgr and General Mgr both remarked at their 'fancy' calculators. I just grinned and nodded. We'll see what happens when I get out my 'fancy' calculator in a meeting. ha

 

[ScottM]

I'd offer you my old 48S, but it doesn't work anymore, and I keep it for sentimental reasons...is it uber-geeky of me to keep a calculator for sentimental reasons?

I completely understand. I was looking at my HP15C, that I have had since 1985, and was thinking of all of the cool stuff that we had been through together. It is an old friend.

 

[Gary]

...is it uber-geeky of me to keep a calculator for sentimental reasons?

Maybe...but you are not the only one! My HP 45 is still kicking and is my primary desk calculator. Only works with the AC adaptor, but does eveything I need a calculator to do. Just something about that warm fuzzy red glow of LEDs. For the tough stuff, I just hire a consultant!

Gary