GPS, ForeFlight & definitions

[murphey]

So I've read the definition of "geo-locating". And ForeFlight has moving map capability by default ($75/yr version) and if you want georeferencing, it's extra $$$. I've read the FAQ on FF's website about moving map but I'm still baffled.

What's the difference between a moving map and geolocation? Is it just the level of granularity in position?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So I've read the definition of "geo-locating". And ForeFlight has moving map capability by default ($75/yr version) and if you want georeferencing, it's extra $$$. I've read the FAQ on FF's website about moving map but I'm still baffled.

What's the difference between a moving map and geolocation? Is it just the level of granularity in position?

There's no difference between "moving map" and "geolocation."

I think you mean "georeferencing".

ALL versions of ForeFlight will show your position on sectionals, low and high enroute charts. What the more-expensive georeferencing plan adds is your position on approach plates and taxi diagrams.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's also a confusion that arises of out the various discussions on the software, both online and live. "I want georeferencing" and "Oooh! That app is getting geo-referncing" has usually (lately anyway) been in the context of geo-referenced approach charts. I hear the same thing during as seminar and it took a while of "huh, but it =has= geo-referencing???" before I figured out the limited subject of the reference.

 

[murphey]

From Wikipedia (can't find it in Webster's)

"To georeference something means to define its existence in physical space. That is, establishing its location in terms of map projections or coordinate systems. The term is used both when establishing the relation between raster or vector images and coordinates but also when determining the spatial location of other geographical features. Examples would include establishing the correct position of an aerial photograph within a map or finding the geographical coordinates of a place name or street address. This procedure is thus imperative to data modeling in the field of geographic information systems (GIS) and other cartographic methods."

"Geolocation is the identification of the real-world geographic location of an object, such as a radar, mobile phone or an Internet-connected computer terminal. Geolocation may refer to the practice of assessing the location, or to the actual assessed location."

I'm still confused.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm still confused.

Forget the dictionary. In the context of mobile aviation apps, generally "georeferencing" means "showing one's location on an approach plate."

And that is the only difference between the two ForeFlight plans - whether or not you get a little blue airplane on the approach plates and taxi diagrams. Like I said, all versions of ForeFlight will show your location on VFR (Sectional, TAC) and IFR enroute (high and low) charts.

 

[timwinters]

There's no difference between "moving map" and "geolocation." .

Except that the iPad map doesn't move like that on a 496 or other true "moving map" GPSs. Your little airplane will fly right off the screen unless you manually recenter it.

At least I haven't found a setting that makes it true moving map.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Except that the iPad map doesn't move like that on a 496 or other true "moving map" GPSs. Your little airplane will fly right off the screen unless you manually recenter it.

At least I haven't found a setting that makes it true moving map.

It is. If you center the airplane using the centering icon, the airplane will remain centered and the map will move - so long as you don't touch the screen to zoom, check a waypoint, rubber band a route, etc. When you touch the screen, you are chaning it from a moving map to a static map and even the "centered" icon will turn gray.

Look harder - like in the manual

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It is. If you center the airplane using the centering icon, the airplane will remain centered and the map will move - so long as you don't touch the screen to zoom, check a waypoint, rubber band a route, etc. When you touch the screen, you are chaning it from a moving map to a static map and even the "centered" icon will turn gray.

Look harder - like in the manual

Tim,

What Mark said. It's the little target icon just to the right of the route box in the upper right hand corner on ForeFlight. If moving-map functionality is on, it should be blue. But if you go look at another spot on the map, you'll need to tap it again... If it was ALWAYS centered on the airplane, it'd be awfully hard to look ahead on the chart or to do flight planning.

 

[Jaybird180]

I went to look at the iPad2 this weekend. They couldn't tell me if the wifi-only version will suit my needs (onboard GPS). FF website recommends the 3G, but I'm not convinced that this is just Apple marketing. Others have reported that iPad1 does fine with FF and wifi-only models.

 

[jesse]

I went to look at the iPad2 this weekend. They couldn't tell me if the wifi-only version will suit my needs (onboard GPS). FF website recommends the 3G, but I'm not convinced that this is just Apple marketing. Others have reported that iPad1 does fine with FF and wifi-only models.

The Wifi version does not have a GPS. If you want GPS capability in Foreflight you'll need to buy an external receiver like the Bad Elf.

I bought a Wifi because the GPS in the iPad isn't that amazing and the Bad Elf is only like $90 and works way better.

 

[JOhnH]

The Wifi version does not have a GPS. If you want GPS capability in Foreflight you'll need to buy an external receiver like the Bad Elf.

I bought a Wifi because the GPS in the iPad isn't that amazing and the Bad Elf is only like $90 and works way better.

I had heard that before and I even asked on this board. If I remember correctly, I was told the on-board GPS on the IPAD was just about as good as the external antenna without the extra wiring. Can you use the Bad Elf on the Ipad-2 to IMPROVE the ability of the 3G version? I still want the 3G version so I can get Internet access anywhere but if I am going to use it in the cockpit, I want it fast and reliable.

 

[jason]

I had heard that before and I even asked on this board. If I remember correctly, I was told the on-board GPS on the IPAD was just about as good as the external antenna without the extra wiring. Can you use the Bad Elf on the Ipad-2 to IMPROVE the ability of the 3G version? I still want the 3G version so I can get Internet access anywhere but if I am going to use it in the cockpit, I want it fast and reliable.

It's not nearly as good, but could be sufficient for may needs (if you don't fly hard IFR, for instance).

Read posts #84-91 in this thread... (includes links to the relevant portions of the foreflight website)

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=699505#post699505

 

[Jaybird180]

So, the georef stuff needs the external GPS also?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I had heard that before and I even asked on this board. If I remember correctly, I was told the on-board GPS on the IPAD was just about as good as the external antenna without the extra wiring. Can you use the Bad Elf on the Ipad-2 to IMPROVE the ability of the 3G version? I still want the 3G version so I can get Internet access anywhere but if I am going to use it in the cockpit, I want it fast and reliable.

So, the georef stuff needs the external GPS also?

NO. All of the location features of ForeFlight work with the internal GPS on the 3G models.

You can use the Bad Elf on the 3G models - When you have it connected, it'll be used. When you don't have it connected, you still have the internal GPS. If I did have a Bad Elf, I'd only bother connecting it for flying - The internal works just fine for all other uses. Hell, IMO the internal works fine for flying too. Just don't use it as your sole means of navigation IFR or your sole means of staying out of that big class Bravo... Remember, it's an EFB, not an aviation GPS.

 

[jason]

NO. All of the location features of ForeFlight work with the internal GPS on the 3G models.

You can use the Bad Elf on the 3G models - When you have it connected, it'll be used. When you don't have it connected, you still have the internal GPS. If I did have a Bad Elf, I'd only bother connecting it for flying - The internal works just fine for all other uses. Hell, IMO the internal works fine for flying too. Just don't use it as your sole means of navigation IFR or your sole means of staying out of that big class Bravo... Remember, it's an EFB, not an aviation GPS.

There are some reception and lock time advantages to the externals. The bad elf, for instance, has an internal battery that it uses to cache satellite positions, allowing it to get a lock much faster. Plus WAAS. How long does it take you to get a GPS lock with the internal GPS if you cold boot it at 8000 ft?

I would agree, after researching it a bit, that the internal GPS could work fine for most weekend flyers. I, however, want the most accurate...fastest locking option when I'm stuck in the slag.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So, the georef stuff needs the external GPS also?

No. All it needs is a GPS - whatever type.

Some of the confusion about this stems from the way FF handled it. When FF ultimately went to geo-refernced approach plates, they said that they didn't do it earlier because of concerns with the overall capability of the internal GPS coupled with the likelihood of a pilot trying to use it as a major backup (if not as a primary nav reference in some cases, whatever the rules may be). I guess the made the assessment that the risk associated with the little airplane "falling off" a sectional or en route chart was less than that associated with falling off the approach plate.

That may sound like "the iPad internal GPS doesn't work" but all it was was one company's stated decision to wait until there was somehting it was more comfortable with before taking the next step.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There are some reception and lock time advantages to the externals. The bad elf, for instance, has an internal battery that it uses to cache satellite positions, allowing it to get a lock much faster. Plus WAAS. How long does it take you to get a GPS lock with the internal GPS if you cold boot it at 8000 ft?

Well, I haven't tried cold booting it at 8000 feet. On the ground, though, I think the TTFF ("lock time") would still be faster with the internal, unless the Bad Elf can access the aGPS info that the 3G chip can. Reception could definitely be improved by an external, but I haven't had any reception issues on the internal either.

I would agree, after researching it a bit, that the internal GPS could work fine for most weekend flyers. I, however, want the most accurate...fastest locking option when I'm stuck in the slag.

See, here's the thing - The iPad is an EFB. When you're "in the slag" you should not be using it (or any other portable device) for navigation. Having the blue plane on the charts and plates is nice, but completely unnecessary IMO - So if it went away suddenly, it wouldn't be a great cause for alarm. I still have the charts there, and that's what the iPad is for.

The iPad is an awfully nice whiz-bang device, but people seem to want to make it into a portable glass panel. While it can do a lot of the same things, it still does have, and always will have, limitations - Just like any other handheld device. What's installed in the airplane is what's important, the iPad is just a really good supplement to that.

 

[COFlyBoy]

The iPad is an awfully nice whiz-bang device, but people seem to want to make it into a portable glass panel. While it can do a lot of the same things, it still does have, and always will have, limitations - Just like any other handheld device. What's installed in the airplane is what's important, the iPad is just a really good supplement to that.

I agree. The accuracy difference between the internal GPS and an external one with WAAS might make one pixel difference on the screen. (~20 meters standard, ~3 meters w/WAAS). Not a big deal for a device that should only be providing supplementary situational awareness, anyway.

If you want vertical guidance, its gotta be permenantly installed in the panel. I've had my handheld and BT GPS crap out in ways that would've killed me on an approach. Like freezing up and not saying its frozen, or spontaneously rebooting altogether.

 

[jason]

Well, I haven't tried cold booting it at 8000 feet. On the ground, though, I think the TTFF ("lock time") would still be faster with the internal, unless the Bad Elf can access the aGPS info that the 3G chip can. Reception could definitely be improved by an external, but I haven't had any reception issues on the internal either.

I thought I remembered talking to you at Gaston's and having you say that the internal GPS worked fine as long as you locked while you were on the ground. I haven't yet heard reports of quick lock times while in flight out of the range of cell towers. It may lock just fine in flight, I just haven't yet seen anybody (anywhere) communicate that with any level of certainty. I would agree that the internal GPS would likely attain (a very preliminary) lock faster while on the ground because of the help it receives from the network.

See, here's the thing - The iPad is an EFB. When you're "in the slag" you should not be using it (or any other portable device) for navigation. Having the blue plane on the charts and plates is nice, but completely unnecessary IMO - So if it went away suddenly, it wouldn't be a great cause for alarm. I still have the charts there, and that's what the iPad is for.

The iPad is an awfully nice whiz-bang device, but people seem to want to make it into a portable glass panel. While it can do a lot of the same things, it still does have, and always will have, limitations - Just like any other handheld device. What's installed in the airplane is what's important, the iPad is just a really good supplement to that.

I'm very well aware that the iPad is just an EFB. I wouldn't depend on it any more than I would depend on my Garmin 396. Every feature is simply there to make things easier and to aid in situational awareness. That said, if I have a tool, I want it to help me in whatever ways that it can. I assume that when you're shooting an approach, you have the 430 set to the map page, correct? You could have it set to show the CDI, but having the map showing dramatically increases your situational awareness, so why wouldn't you use it? As long as you don't rely upon it for safe operation, there isn't a reason.

You know my feelings on this, because I've spoken with you about them recently. I'd rather know how to do, and feel comfortable doing, things the hard way before I use tools such as the iPad to aid me. I don't intend to rely on this to get me through anything that I shouldn't.

I assume there is a reason that FF still recommends an external. What is it? I'm not arguing that it's necessary for everybody. Hell, I'm not trying to argue at all. I'm simply pointing out that there IS a difference. If I had known what I know now, my answer to Dave may have been different. I would have, at the very least, laid the options out for him properly. As has been pointed out, I think that much of my initial confusion was due to the poor handling of the subject by FF. They said for quite some time that the internal GPS wasn't capable enough. If there is any FUD spreading on the subject, that's where it came from. I'm certainly not trying to propagate the FUD, I'm just trying to discuss the differences in the options available.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I thought I remembered talking to you at Gaston's and having you say that the internal GPS worked fine as long as you locked while you were on the ground. I haven't yet heard reports of quick lock times while in flight out of the range of cell towers. It may lock just fine in flight, I just haven't yet seen anybody (anywhere) communicate that with any level of certainty. I would agree that the internal GPS would likely attain (a very preliminary) lock faster while on the ground because of the help it receives from the network.

It does lock in the air, but it's as slow as any other GPS if you can't get any cell signal. The speed advantage is provided by the cell signal. However, the cell signal is not completely necessary.

I assume that when you're shooting an approach, you have the 430 set to the map page, correct? You could have it set to show the CDI, but having the map showing dramatically increases your situational awareness, so why wouldn't you use it?

Not only that, but there's no point to it being on the default nav (CDI) page because I have a physical CDI needle right next to it.

I assume there is a reason that FF still recommends an external. What is it?

Well, they've done some fairly extensive testing comparing the iPad vs. a panel-mount 430 and have come to that conclusion. I personally have not seen any *noticeable* position error on the iPad, but I'm not comparing raw data to another GPS the way they are. I believe that on the iPad, the lateral accuracy is decreased somewhat during a climb or descent, such as when on an approach. But, the error is not enough to be noticeable to me, so I have no problem using it without an external GPS.