gps approaches

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
9,488
Display Name
Display name:
Ben
These are supposed to be so easy. But I learned before they were required, and in an aircraft with a VFR only GPS. I feel so stupid, or maybe frustrated, but I can't seem to get them. I'm not confident enough to shoot one on my own. The problem is, every time I go up to fly approaches for practice (which is always with a CFII, and is every other time I fly), there's something "wrong" with the damn GPS, or we end up winging it. And to further the problems, each GPS has its own quirks.

****es me off. All I really want is an airplane with GPS for reference, and then and HSI, VOR, and a freaking DME for goodness sake.

And by the way--no, I do NOT want to pay $1000 for the glass panel transition course. ;_;
 
spiderweb said:
These are supposed to be so easy. But I learned before they were required, and in an aircraft with a VFR only GPS. I feel so stupid, or maybe frustrated, but I can't seem to get them. I'm not confident enough to shoot one on my own. The problem is, every time I go up to fly approaches for practice (which is always with a CFII, and is every other time I fly), there's something "wrong" with the damn GPS, or we end up winging it. And to further the problems, each GPS has its own quirks.

****es me off. All I really want is an airplane with GPS for reference, and then and HSI, VOR, and a freaking DME for goodness sake.

And by the way--no, I do NOT want to pay $1000 for the glass panel transition course. ;_;
Click to expand...

Get a Standard desktop flight sim, buy a sim airplane with G430W or G1000 in it, and practice, practice, practice.

Assuming you have a computer, you'll spend $100 for the sim and the a/c add-in.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I can understand the frustration; the differences in GPS models is certainly a challenge if you are renting.
Click to expand...
I can also sympathize with this problem having flown a fleet with many different kinds of GPSs and FMSs. A VOR is a VOR and it doesn't take much to figure out how to use a different manufacturer's model. However, it seems like each GPS needs to be programmed in a slightly different way, and correct programming is the key to being able to do GPS approaches successfully.
 
Everskyward said:
I can also sympathize with this problem having flown a fleet with many different kinds of GPSs and FMSs. A VOR is a VOR and it doesn't take much to figure out how to use a different manufacturer's model. However, it seems like each GPS needs to be programmed in a slightly different way, and correct programming is the key to being able to do GPS approaches successfully.
Click to expand...
Well, a VOR is a VOR if you're using a CDI. The first time I used an HSI i didn't understand the glideslope on the side!:yikes:
 
spiderweb said:
These are supposed to be so easy. But I learned before they were required, and in an aircraft with a VFR only GPS. I feel so stupid, or maybe frustrated, but I can't seem to get them. I'm not confident enough to shoot one on my own. The problem is, every time I go up to fly approaches for practice (which is always with a CFII, and is every other time I fly), there's something "wrong" with the damn GPS, or we end up winging it. And to further the problems, each GPS has its own quirks.

****es me off. All I really want is an airplane with GPS for reference, and then and HSI, VOR, and a freaking DME for goodness sake.
Click to expand...

Ben,

What is it you're not "getting?" The operation of the GPS itself, how the approaches fit into the system, etc.?

At its most basic level, there's nothing too unusual about a GPS approach compared to any other non-precision approach. Go here, go there, descend to this altitude here...

Some GPS approaches are overlays of other approaches (NDB or GPS, VOR or GPS, etc.) and are flown pretty much the same way. There are also older GPS approaches that look about the same. Then there's the newer-style RNAV(GPS) type that generally uses a T layout. The runway is the bottom of the T, the FAF is halfway up, and both ends of the top are IAF's with NoPT, while the middle of the top is an IAF with a HPILPT. They also replace the MSA circle with TAA (Terminal Arrival Area, IIRC) chunks.

As far as actually flying them, the hardest part is probably just learning how to effectively use the box. I think both Garmin and King offer free simulators for download and free PDF manuals, so that's where you'll want to start. Or, if you have more specific questions, fire away! :yes:
 
I can understand the problem. In my job, I may be using a GNS530W one week, a GX-60 the next, and a King KLN-94 the week after that. It's enough to make you crazy. For anything other than a Garmin 430/530, I usually have to borrow the manual the first day and review it overnight. I can't imagine trying to jump from GPS to GPS on a daily basis.
 
Ben, your frustration is standard. You need a C182 with what you want in it. Get one cheap -a mid 70's version and put what you need into the panel. I know, I know, it's a lot of students and concerts.... sigh.
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, a VOR is a VOR if you're using a CDI. The first time I used an HSI i didn't understand the glideslope on the side!:yikes:
Click to expand...
On the other hand, I would hate to try to use a CDI and DG today. :eek:
 
gprellwitz said:
Well, a VOR is a VOR if you're using a CDI. The first time I used an HSI i didn't understand the glideslope on the side!:yikes:
Click to expand...

So I was not the only one?

I was painfully embarrassed about it...

...a compassionate instructor at the FBO from which I was renting broke it to me, gently.
 
Are you trying to self teach this or are you working with an instructor (even a video one) who understands the system?

You're not learning flying. Your learning the functions of a complex computer.
 
SCCutler said:
So I was not the only one?

I was painfully embarrassed about it...

...a compassionate instructor at the FBO from which I was renting broke it to me, gently.
Click to expand...

I "got it" from the start, but I sure didn't like it. :no: I still like having a nice, solid line for my glideslope. :yes: However, for everything else I really like the HSI.

Is it possible, on an Aspen or other glass setup, to get a glideslope "needle" on the HSI display instead of the two arrows?
 
Ben, if you're still in the Maryland area, drop me a PM. We can chat about what airplanes and GPS you're going to fly and do some chair flying and/or sim work - it'll be good practice for my teaching skills.
 
bbchien said:
Ben, your frustration is standard. You need a C182 with what you want in it. Get one cheap -a mid 70's version and put what you need into the panel. I know, I know, it's a lot of students and concerts.... sigh.
Click to expand...

That is an excellent idea. I really would love to have a bird of my own (or co-owned) so I could really get that hand-in-glove relationship with her. A stationair might be even better with a cello, haha!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ben,

What is it you're not "getting?" The operation of the GPS itself, how the approaches fit into the system, etc.?
Click to expand...

It is the different boxes. And when they're demonstrated, it seems like we're skipping steps. My original CFII (the one with whom I got my PPL and IR, the one who will always be my real instructor), doesn't have a plane with an IFR cert GPS in it. Every time I rent, it is a different setup and something isn't working.
 
TMetzinger said:
Ben, if you're still in the Maryland area, drop me a PM. We can chat about what airplanes and GPS you're going to fly and do some chair flying and/or sim work - it'll be good practice for my teaching skills.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much. I'm trundling over to FDK tomorrow to do some of these with a CFII there.
 
spiderweb said:
It is the different boxes. And when they're demonstrated, it seems like we're skipping steps.
Click to expand...
One of the problems with GPS units is that unlike VOR's, the operation of units built by different manufacturers is always significantly, and often totally, different. As a result, unlike VOR's, you can't just jump in a plane and use an unfamiliar GPS -- you really have to go to school on each and every different make/model. Simply getting a "demonstration" or playing with the free simulator available on-line is just not enough to make you able to use one effectively for IFR operations.

The natural reticence of pilots to spend money on training makes that problem worse, because the good training programs cost around $150. However, that is money well spent, because it takes quite a few hours with an instructor to really learn a GPS you haven't seen before, and the engine is running while you're doing that in flight. The most effective way to properly learn a new-to-you GPS is to find a good training program (like the Garmin 430/530 program from SunFlight Avionics), buy it, and then sit down and patiently work through the whole program.

If there isn't such a program available, you may be reduced to a slow and careful read through the manuals which came with the unit supplemented by a few hours of training with an instructor familiar with that make/model. Either way, the hard truth is that it takes many hours of training/study to learn one of these boxes well enough to use it effectively and efficiently, and you will be spending money to do that.

One last point is that flying with different GPS's is no different than jumping between different airplanes. Just as when you jump from a Baron to an Aztec, you will face the problems of differences and negative training transfer when you jump from a King KLN-94 to an Apollo/UPSAT GX-50. You will need to stop and review at least the Quick Reference Card to make sure you're on the right mental page before launching.
 
spiderweb said:
It is the different boxes. And when they're demonstrated, it seems like we're skipping steps. My original CFII (the one with whom I got my PPL and IR, the one who will always be my real instructor), doesn't have a plane with an IFR cert GPS in it. Every time I rent, it is a different setup and something isn't working.
Click to expand...

Ah. Yes, different boxes are a pain! I'm a gadget freak and I've gotten to know a lot of them at various points, but they all work differently and when you've been flying one you start to forget how the others work.

I guess my best advice is to attempt to only rent planes with one type of GPS if that's possible where you are, and get really good on one box. Probably wouldn't hurt to let the FBO know that you'd really like them to standardize, maybe over time they'll settle on one brand at least.
 
Thanks, Ron. The past two days have seen me reviewing the manuals for the GPS as well as the autopilot. Today's flight made it all come together. I think I might finally be confident enough to fly a GPS approach in IMC.

Ron Levy said:
One of the problems with GPS units is that unlike VOR's, the operation of units built by different manufacturers is always significantly, and often totally, different. As a result, unlike VOR's, you can't just jump in a plane and use an unfamiliar GPS -- you really have to go to school on each and every different make/model. Simply getting a "demonstration" or playing with the free simulator available on-line is just not enough to make you able to use one effectively for IFR operations.

The natural reticence of pilots to spend money on training makes that problem worse, because the good training programs cost around $150. However, that is money well spent, because it takes quite a few hours with an instructor to really learn a GPS you haven't seen before, and the engine is running while you're doing that in flight. The most effective way to properly learn a new-to-you GPS is to find a good training program (like the Garmin 430/530 program from SunFlight Avionics), buy it, and then sit down and patiently work through the whole program.

If there isn't such a program available, you may be reduced to a slow and careful read through the manuals which came with the unit supplemented by a few hours of training with an instructor familiar with that make/model. Either way, the hard truth is that it takes many hours of training/study to learn one of these boxes well enough to use it effectively and efficiently, and you will be spending money to do that.

One last point is that flying with different GPS's is no different than jumping between different airplanes. Just as when you jump from a Baron to an Aztec, you will face the problems of differences and negative training transfer when you jump from a King KLN-94 to an Apollo/UPSAT GX-50. You will need to stop and review at least the Quick Reference Card to make sure you're on the right mental page before launching.
Click to expand...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ah. Yes, different boxes are a pain! I'm a gadget freak and I've gotten to know a lot of them at various points, but they all work differently and when you've been flying one you start to forget how the others work.

I guess my best advice is to attempt to only rent planes with one type of GPS if that's possible where you are, and get really good on one box. Probably wouldn't hurt to let the FBO know that you'd really like them to standardize, maybe over time they'll settle on one brand at least.
Click to expand...

and today I determined that one of the major problems was figuring out how those different GPSs worked with the different autopilots. I reviewed all of this the past couple of days, and it helped. Just as an example, some of the autopilots have alt arm, but others only have the hold. If I had set the vertical speed on the AP, and then expected it to stop at an altitude without the alt arm, that's going to be a distraction. Another frustrating thing was that some of the waypoints didn't appear, and I couldn't figure out why.

By the way, I'm doing all this in the uber-simple C172R. I didn't want to mess with the Garmin in the Saratoga until I could get things down in the slower and simpler planes.
 
It took me 6 months of reading, doing, reading, doing, then venturing into high IMC to get it right.
 
All that worrying and reading, launched on a short trip with forecast for 1400' bkn at destination, and FINALLY, I was going to get to shoot a real GPS app in actual, but w/o stress.

Nope. Got there: ceiling reporting just below minimums!

Still daylight, familiar field, I took the approach, was reaching for the gear lever when we spotted the ground after the VDP but before the MAP the threshold), pull power, deploy flaps, land airplane.

Still, was not as well-aligned with the runway as I would have liked, and intend to fly the same approach in VMC to look-see it. Successful outcome, but... I was ready to go missed, land at alternate (50nm away and CLEAR), or simply fly back home. Fuel=options.
 
bbchien said:
It took me 6 months of reading, doing, reading, doing, then venturing into high IMC to get it right.
Click to expand...

That sounds like the best way to do it. I've been at it for longer, but GPS training hasn't been a constant
 
I can't wait to see your bird. I was just in Dallas, but only for the day.

SCCutler said:
All that worrying and reading, launched on a short trip with forecast for 1400' bkn at destination, and FINALLY, I was going to get to shoot a real GPS app in actual, but w/o stress.

Nope. Got there: ceiling reporting just below minimums!

Still daylight, familiar field, I took the approach, was reaching for the gear lever when we spotted the ground after the VDP but before the MAP the threshold), pull power, deploy flaps, land airplane.

Still, was not as well-aligned with the runway as I would have liked, and intend to fly the same approach in VMC to look-see it. Successful outcome, but... I was ready to go missed, land at alternate (50nm away and CLEAR), or simply fly back home. Fuel=options.
Click to expand...
 
spiderweb said:
I can't wait to see your bird. I was just in Dallas, but only for the day.
Click to expand...


Well, she ain't perfect, but she *is* mine.

Give a little advance notice, and (wx cooperating) flight, food and conversation will occur. :blueplane:
 
SCCutler said:
Well, she ain't perfect, but she *is* mine.

Give a little advance notice, and (wx cooperating) flight, food and conversation will occur. :blueplane:
Click to expand...

That sounds great! See your PM
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I guess my best advice is to attempt to only rent planes with one type of GPS if that's possible where you are, and get really good on one box. Probably wouldn't hurt to let the FBO know that you'd really like them to standardize, maybe over time they'll settle on one brand at least.
Click to expand...

With aircraft on leaseback, and the cost of trying to trade out/replace/upgrade AND install... this is an unrealistic goal to have for an FBO or flying club rental fleet.

If you can learn how to use one King product, the majority of that transfers to the rest of the King products - the 89, 90, 94 etc all use the same general architecture, even though specific details differ. Get your own manual and read it a few times. Take a VFR flight or three, but fly it as if you were IFR - Flight follow, practice approaches, safety pilot/buddy with you - and get your game down.

The same with the Garmin 400/500 series - once you can functionally use one, you can functionally use any of them. There is an online trainer as well.

Learn how to put together a quick flight plan. Learn how to insert a waypoint quickly in a particular spot.. its just a few pushes or twists. Learn how to add an approach, arm, and fly it.. Learn the quirks (does your install require you to select the HSI's/CDI source (GPS vs LOC/ILS). Learn how to use the features deep in the pages - how to calculate TAS and wind direction - and give Pireps.

I LIKE the 430/530's but I truly learned how to use all the features of a KLN 90B, and when I was actively flying felt comfortable with it, in the soup, on approach, everywhere. The key was having access to a factory users manual and reading it several times, once or twice sitting in the plane on the ground and playing with it. And the other King GPS's just fell right into place knowing how to use the 90.
 
Doggtyred said:
With aircraft on leaseback, and the cost of trying to trade out/replace/upgrade AND install... this is an unrealistic goal to have for an FBO or flying club rental fleet.
Click to expand...

Why do you say that? If you mean all that only in the leaseback case, OK - But the local flight school has ONE aircraft on leaseback and the rest are their own. And my flying club is hoping to standardize on Garmin gadgets in all the planes as soon as we can afford to.

If you can learn how to use one King product, the majority of that transfers to the rest of the King products - the 89, 90, 94 etc all use the same general architecture, even though specific details differ.
Click to expand...

True - And I've found it very easy to bounce back and forth between G1000 and 430 - But when you're bouncing from Garmin to King to Apollo all the time, it's very difficult to truly master any of them.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Why do you say that? If you mean all that only in the leaseback case, OK - But the local flight school has ONE aircraft on leaseback and the rest are their own. And my flying club is hoping to standardize on Garmin gadgets in all the planes as soon as we can afford to.
Click to expand...
It's nice that your club is willing to do that, but many can't afford or don't want to pay for pulling a working GPS out and replacing it with another one in the name of standardization.
 
It is not a surprise that GPS is confusing to the OP given many of his past posts. Scary.
 
texasplt said:
It is not a surprise that GPS is confusing to the OP given many of his past posts. Scary.
Click to expand...

You must be the guy that one-stars all of Ben's posts. Who the hell are you? And what's wrong with someone asking a question? :dunno: :mad3:
 
texasplt said:
It is not a surprise that GPS is confusing to the OP given many of his past posts. Scary.
Click to expand...

Yes, I often find well-crafted, inquisitive posts in which the pilot posting is trying to gain a more complete understanding of a particular facet of the discipline of piloting to be, well, deeply troubling.

Ben should just stick to sawing on his big fiddle, and leave the really challenging act of flying an airplane to all us extra-plus smart guys.

Sheesh.

Edit:

Upon further reflection, I have to add this: the only thing I find "scary" about Ben's posts is that, often, he makes me recognize areas of my own skills and knowledge which are lacking, thus reminding me to re-apply myself to improving my professionalism, piloting skills and decision-making abilities.

If that's "scary," then I say, "Scare away, Ben!"
 
Last edited:
bbchien said:
No. What's scarier is the lack of expertise among CFIs in this area of operations.

Who ya gonna call?
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth. Right after Brent and I got our IR, we made many many flights together teaching each other how to use the GPS and coupled autopilots on our club planes. Throwing money at CFII's that knew little more than we did wasn't the solution. Teaching each other was.

One plane was Garmin 430/S-Tec 55x, the other King KLN-94, MFD display, and King coupled auto pilot (can't even remember the models anymore).

It is VERY nice to now fly behind the same panel all the time. (430/KFC-200)
 
texasplt said:
It is not a surprise that GPS is confusing to the OP given many of his past posts. Scary.
Click to expand...

It isn't confusing to me. I was being cautious, and had made a conscious decision not to fly GPS approaches in IMC until I was thoroughly familiar.

Oh and by the way, you can . . .
 
Last edited:
bbchien said:
No. What's scarier is the lack of expertise among CFIs in this area of operations.

Who ya gonna call?
Click to expand...

And that's why I post here, not worrying too much about what some people think: I get the advice of consummate pros like you, for FREE. That's why I love this webboard.
 
And that's a good point, because while I know I am an expert in one area (as are most of us), I recognize that with only eight years of flying, I am still not much more than a novice in that area.

SCCutler said:
Yes, I often find well-crafted, inquisitive posts in which the pilot posting is trying to gain a more complete understanding of a particular facet of the discipline of piloting to be, well, deeply troubling.

Ben should just stick to sawing on his big fiddle, and leave the really challenging act of flying an airplane to all us extra-plus smart guys.

Sheesh.

Edit:

Upon further reflection, I have to add this: the only thing I find "scary" about Ben's posts is that, often, he makes me recognize areas of my own skills and knowledge which are lacking, thus reminding me to re-apply myself to improving my professionalism, piloting skills and decision-making abilities.

If that's "scary," then I say, "Scare away, Ben!"
Click to expand...
 
You know this got me thinking. Frankly, flying a simple single-engine aircraft IFR isn't incredibly difficult, once you get the hang if it. Certainly, playing the cello is infinitely more nuanced. However, what is worth bearing in mind is that making mistakes with the art of flying can actually have negative outcomes such as death, so caution is a good byword.
 
texasplt said:
It is not a surprise that GPS is confusing to the OP given many of his past posts. Scary.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm
Well Albert I have many GPS approaches under my belt. I have flown with four GPS, the latest I have had for only week and put ten hours and 7 approaches on it this week and also have been playing with the simulator and reading the manual. I am almost ready to take the new GPS into actual and am satisfied that everything works right.

Ben is just doing what he should be doing and is asking the right questions to be proficient. The difference between being an average flier and a good flier is knowing that you need to know more than just enough to get by.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top