Going into a college flight program with private licence

For what it is worth, (absolutely nothing) the ROI on my aviation degree is pretty good. I am one of the "Lucky" ones that actually made it in aviation. The ROI on my electronics "backup" degree is absolutely zero. Never used it and that education is totally obsolete.
 
I know a pilot who got an aviation bachelors from University of Dubuque in two years. That's a pilot mill in Iowa. Before that, he got his private certificate and instrument ratings with a club plane and instructor, and he took two years of general classes at a community college, while living at home. That way he got the diploma from a pilot mill college with half the debt.
 
I will say its very discouraging to hear the success rate from getting these degrees and how the aviation field is a flop as far as careers should I say.
 
I went into airline carriage after the military. I spent nearly 4 decades flying heavies. I went through the transition from pistons to jets and helped pioneer the jet airline routes between South Africa, South America, and the far east. I made a lot of money, met a lot of good people, and saw nearly every part of the world. The following musings are based on my experience and are my personal opinions only.

Most people find that happiness in life comes largely through excelling at what one does with that life. Few people aspire to mediocrity.

Consider the ability of an individual to make himself stand out from the crowd and be sought out in his profession.

Whether you practice law, medicine, grow vegetables, repair upholstery, or shoe horses, you have the opportunity to excel and become sought after in your field.

A commercial pilot, in contrast to this, is a cog in a machine. By definition he trains to defined standards, performs mostly rote tasks, and is interchangeable with other pilot machine cogs.

One of my sons plays this role as I did and has done well for himself. But as his career wears on I see him becoming less satisfied with life than my other children who chose other paths. This is the value of a non-aviation college degree. Put not all your eggs into one bucket. Life is usually too short to start over.
 
Ryanb said:
I will say its very discouraging to hear the success rate from getting these degrees and how the aviation field is a flop as far as careers should I say.
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You hear a lot of that here, but how many pilots are resigning from major air carriers to go do something else?
 
Ron Levy said:
You hear a lot of that here, but how many pilots are resigning from major air carriers to go do something else?
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How many get to that position? I know one hell of a lot of furloughed airline pilots doing something else now. I have had many airline pilots ask me how to get my job.
 
JHW said:
ROI on a degree is very good as long as it's a degree in something useful.

...
If you're inclined to get a "business degree" because you want to get into "management" then start with an accounting degree. That leads to a real job where you get paid. Then get an MBA if "business" is your thing.
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:yeahthat:


And I also agree that two students sharing Cessna 150 or an old twin could indeed become employable as professional pilots a lot faster and cheaper than going through a four aviation degree program (including the ATP Sim course).
 
w_privett said:
Whether you practice law, medicine, grow vegetables, repair upholstery, or shoe horses, you have the opportunity to excel and become sought after in your field.
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I agree that I'm merely a cog in the machine, but I disagree that I don't have the opportunity to excel in my field. My personal satisfaction from the job comes from the manner in which I perform it - not via recognition from the company or anyone else. The company meets its obligation to me with a comfortable salary and half the month off. I don't need to be sought after, or have someone tell me I'm doing a good job. I excel because *I* know that I perform at a level well above the baseline set by the FAA and the expectations of my employer.

If I need to others to validate the job I'm doing, I'd prefer be told that I'm a good friend, son, husband, or (if I had kids) father. That's the stuff that ultimately influences my happiness.
 
kayoh190 said:
I agree that I'm merely a cog in the machine, but I disagree that I don't have the opportunity to excel in my field. My personal satisfaction from the job comes from the manner in which I perform it - not via recognition from the company or anyone else. The company meets its obligation to me with a comfortable salary and half the month off. I don't need to be sought after, or have someone tell me I'm doing a good job. I excel because *I* know that I perform at a level well above the baseline set by the FAA and the expectations of my employer.

If I need to others to validate the job I'm doing, I'd prefer be told that I'm a good friend, son, husband, or (if I had kids) father. That's the stuff that ultimately influences my happiness.
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There is no lack of value or pride available to excelling at your job as a cog. Without good cogs, the machine doesn't work.
 
Ron Levy said:
You hear a lot of that here, but how many pilots are resigning from major air carriers to go do something else?
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Not one person I know went straight from graduating with a "Professional Flight Degree" to a major airline. However a lot of them went to regional airlines. They also donate plasma for money and work at Panera Bread to help them survive.

Lets be real, the amount of airline pilots that make it up through the ranks with no military experience and now work at FedEx or UPS making $200,000 a year...is small
 
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Gucci Pilot said:
Not one person I know went straight from graduating with a "Professional Flight Degree" to a major airline.
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Neither did anyone with a degree in anything else unless they were flying for a regional while attending college. But it sure doesn't seem like anyone flying for the majors is ready to quit and do something else.


However a lot of them went to regional airlines. They also donate plasma for money and work at Panera Bread to help them survive.

Lets be real, the amount of airline pilots that make it up through the ranks with no military experience and now work at FedEx or UPS making $200,000 a year...is small
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You have some numbers for that? Of course, FedEx and UPS are probably the most desirable employers in the industry right now, but I have seen absolutely zero evidence that graduation from an accredited collegiate professional pilot program isn't the fastest way to the majors (if that's your career goal). You're in with the regionals faster after graduation (in many cases there are direct hire agreements in place), and that means you're qualified for the majors faster.
 
Ron Levy said:
You have some numbers for that? Of course, FedEx and UPS are probably the most desirable employers in the industry right now, but I have seen absolutely zero evidence that graduation from an accredited collegiate professional pilot program isn't the fastest way to the majors (if that's your career goal). You're in with the regionals faster after graduation (in many cases there are direct hire agreements in place), and that means you're qualified for the majors faster.
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I've seen zero evidence that an accredited college professional pilot program is the fastest way to the majors.

I haven't seen many at the majors that want to get out and do something else but quite a few friends at the regionals got out and did something else.

Yeah I got numbers. I can think of 10 pilots off the top of my head that currently fly for FedEx and UPS. Of all of them, 1 of them has no military flight experience(and all of them I met before joining the military).
 
Many regional's actually retard your movement to the majors. Think 'flow through' here.
 
The supply of military trained pilots is going to quickly dry up however....
 
A lot of the military guys now are jumping over to the majors. The Air Force offered an "early out" program and a ton of pilots jumped on it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Probably afraid they were going to get stuck flying a drone.
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No, they just didn't like the Air Force bureaucracy. Getting drone slots assigned to rated pilots now is not as common as people think. Especially since it is its own career field now with its own training pipeline.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
No, they just didn't like the Air Force bureaucracy. Getting drone slots assigned to rated pilots now is not as common as people think. Especially since it is its own career field now with its own training pipeline.
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From what I've heard, they have a serious shortage of drone pilots...
 
Ron Levy said:
...I have seen absolutely zero evidence that graduation from an accredited collegiate professional pilot program isn't the fastest way to the majors (if that's your career goal). You're in with the regionals faster after graduation (in many cases there are direct hire agreements in place), and that means you're qualified for the majors faster.
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This is only half of the full story, and its the only half that prospective students get from the collegiate programs. The other half is that the time difference could be only as short as six months.

At the same time, the debt difference between a a collegiate program and a classical flight school option could be as much as two first-year regional FO salaries. There is a tremendous cost to the "fastest to the airlines" proposition. Youngsters considering collegiate aviation programs should be strongly educated on expected debt and salary levels in the early years of their careers.

But it sure doesn't seem like anyone flying for the majors is ready to quit and do something else.
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I know many who left when they weren't ready due to furlough. Which is why having an education outside of aviation is valuable. Professional aviation can be a fickle mistress.
 
The debt is way to real for these degrees.

I'll be going into the regionals with 30k in debt under my name and a little over 100k under my parents name.

If you have a choice go get a degree elsewhere in some other field and flight train at some mom and pop place.

There are other reasons which deal with the politics of these universities that I'm not going to go into...
 
Gucci Pilot said:
A lot of the military guys now are jumping over to the majors. The Air Force offered an "early out" program and a ton of pilots jumped on it.
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How many? That'll slow down the upgrade from regional to major.
 
Ron Levy said:
That still won't get you past 61.156 unless the flight school has a 61.156 program including the necessary Level C full flight simulator. Also, having given 220 hours of instruction in two months and being wasted at the end, I don't see 150 hours a month as being feasible -- that's a staggering workload. I did that in the summer, too, working six days a week -- don't see even 100 hours a month being feasible in the winter.
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Doing 50 hrs per month is pretty easy even with a second job and that gets you the extra 500 hours in less than a year with actual income instead of a mountain of debt.

I spent time last week with the DPE that I'm doing my ATP-ME ride with soon. He's a retired Delta captain that came up through the ranks the old fashioned way hauling boxes in ratty old 402s.

He said he expects these next umpteen ATP rides will be the last he will ever do as he expects the airlines will begin picking up that phase of the cycle. Kids will get all their ratings, then build hours to 1,500 at which point they'll get hired and given the training to meet 61.156 requirements.
 
So I thought I would update this thread now that I'm much more serious about college (applying by Nov 1 is my goal.) I visited WMU, Purdue, and UND this summer and I'm already familiar with Ohio State since I got my private there. I really like WMU and UND. I didn't like Purdue and I need to get out of Ohio so OSU is a far 3rd. What I really want to do, at either UND or WMU, is double major in professional flight and economics/business. Since I will have over 25 credits going in from high school AP classes (including both micro and macro economics) this seems like a good option and gives me an alternative to aviation in case things (medical) don't work out.

I got so many great replies in this thread I though you guys deserved an update and feel free to post suggestions or any info you have about either UND or WMU.

Thanks,

Sam
 
oregonboy109 said:
So I thought I would update this thread now that I'm much more serious about college (applying by Nov 1 is my goal.) I visited WMU, Purdue, and UND this summer and I'm already familiar with Ohio State since I got my private there. I really like WMU and UND. I didn't like Purdue and I need to get out of Ohio so OSU is a far 3rd. What I really want to do, at either UND or WMU, is double major in professional flight and economics/business. Since I will have over 25 credits going in from high school AP classes (including both micro and macro economics) this seems like a good option and gives me an alternative to aviation in case things (medical) don't work out.

I got so many great replies in this thread I though you guys deserved an update and feel free to post suggestions or any info you have about either UND or WMU.

Thanks,

Sam
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Good luck! I went through SkyWest training with several UND grads. They did very well.
 
oregonboy109 said:
So I thought I would update this thread now that I'm much more serious about college (applying by Nov 1 is my goal.) I visited WMU, Purdue, and UND this summer and I'm already familiar with Ohio State since I got my private there. I really like WMU and UND. I didn't like Purdue and I need to get out of Ohio so OSU is a far 3rd. What I really want to do, at either UND or WMU, is double major in professional flight and economics/business. Since I will have over 25 credits going in from high school AP classes (including both micro and macro economics) this seems like a good option and gives me an alternative to aviation in case things (medical) don't work out.

I got so many great replies in this thread I though you guys deserved an update and feel free to post suggestions or any info you have about either UND or WMU.

Thanks,

Sam
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I can't speak as to WMU but Ive enjoyed my business classes at UND. It's obviously a big department, such as at all schools.

Feel free to PM me if you have more questions about UND.
 
Grand Forks will be nice and warm here soon! :rofl:
 
oregonboy109 said:
At college aviation program such as UND, OSU, Purdue, WMU... what happens to incoming students who already have a private certificate? Is there an abbrivated course of some sort or a ground school class one must take before getting credit for the PPL and moving to the next flight course? Does it matter if the PPL was obtained from a part 61 or 141 school prior to starting college? All the information letters and packets I've gotten have been vaugue on this subject so I hope someone here can help me out.
Thanks!
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Don't tell them. Then dazzle them with what quick learner you are.
 
JHW said:
In the end, they graduate with a mountain of debt and a degree that is slightly less marketable than basket weaving. Just like all the others at those schools.
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That.


As far as your PPL, as far as some schools are concerned you're just another new student, they'll probably give you some credit, but I doubt it will make much of a diffrence one way or another.

Want the secret to getting into UPS, Netjets, Uncle Bobs air, Delta, whatever...

Meet their competitive minimums (not just minimums) as fast as possible, for as little $$ as possible, having less debt gives you a HUUUUGE leg up on the other guys who have a albatross around their neck of ERU degree debt.

If the place you want to go required a degree, do it online while you're in flight school, do it while you're working as building hours and getting PAID as a CPL.

As for your initial 250hrs, go get a bunch of time in gliders, shotgun hours with a friend in the cheapest twin you can find, etc. Just get that CPL and use your employers to build all the expensive hours, Drop Zones are a great place to build PIC single and twin turbine time FAST, over seas is also a option, look outside the box, stand out from the crowd.


CFI--> Regional --> Major, that's not the only (or the best) option.

MANY schools will credit pilot ratings and whatnot into their degrees, many grants and whatnot are also avalible.


Last but certainly not least, do a little PI work for yourself, as you get close to being competitive for where you want to end up, learn about the folks who make decisions, find out what they like to do, do some reasearch online, talk to folks, NETWORK.
 
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There is no 'one' best way to get the ratings and a seat at the majors(should that be the goal). Right now I doubt the military has many coming in the pipeline, so more difficult to get in, with longer commitments.

Yes, one likely needs a 4 yr degree. It's also nice to have a viable backup plan, and avoid debt best one can.

It takes a little faith, work, and perseverance to get to any worthwhile goal.

You know what you want more than distant strangers. I say get a workable plan then follow through to completion.

If you live in OH, it may be easier to deal with Western, Purdue, or somewhere not to far away.
 
oregonboy109 said:
So I thought I would update this thread now that I'm much more serious about college (applying by Nov 1 is my goal.) I visited WMU, Purdue, and UND this summer and I'm already familiar with Ohio State since I got my private there. I really like WMU and UND. I didn't like Purdue and I need to get out of Ohio so OSU is a far 3rd. What I really want to do, at either UND or WMU, is double major in professional flight and economics/business. Since I will have over 25 credits going in from high school AP classes (including both micro and macro economics) this seems like a good option and gives me an alternative to aviation in case things (medical) don't work out.

I got so many great replies in this thread I though you guys deserved an update and feel free to post suggestions or any info you have about either UND or WMU.

Thanks,

Sam
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Do you have the grades to get into a good Econ program like that at University of Chicago or Pitt? With as much AP work as you've done, I think you should consider a good Econ program....
 
oregonboy109 said:
What I really want to do, at either UND or WMU, is double major in professional flight and economics/business.
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I think I'd skip the degree in professional flight and take a heavier course load in economics/business. I don't think an added degree in professional flight will help you much, but if you can graduate a little earlier and therefore get into the workforce earlier, that *will* help.
 
hook_dupin said:
Do you have the grades to get into a good Econ program like that at University of Chicago or Pitt? With as much AP work as you've done, I think you should consider a good Econ program....
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Yes. Econ for me now though is more of a fallback if things don't work out rather than a first career choice.
 
oregonboy109 said:
Yes. Econ for me now though is more of a fallback if things don't work out rather than a first career choice.
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A guy with a CFI and some business skills could do very well around a metro area. The number of business contacts I met while instructing and flying Cirri in the Boston area was insane. My view: go to a respected Econ/business school in a metro area and get your certs on the side. Offer to work the desk at a flight school or FBO o your off hours.
 
Yes, it's always essential to have that backup plan. That plan may require some educational credentials to go with it.


One thing the 'professional flight' program has over 'training on the side' is the fast track to ratings and hours. Regardless of whether a candidate gets hired or not, your qualifications box gets filled faster. The big name flight programs usually have connections to get one started. Of course where one ends up is dependent on the individual.
 
kayoh190 said:
I think I'd skip the degree in professional flight and take a heavier course load in economics/business. I don't think an added degree in professional flight will help you much, but if you can graduate a little earlier and therefore get into the workforce earlier, that *will* help.
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The aviation degree gets him the R-ATP, which could help the seniority aspect.
 
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