Going for third-class medical with an ADD diagnosis...switch to LSA?

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Background: I am going for my Private Pilot's License & have about seven hours at the moment. My instructor gave me all the information about the third-class medical, the doctor he uses, & told me to set up an appointment with him. Looking through the disqualifying conditions, I see ADD, which I am diagnosed with - I probably should have researched it all a little more before I actually started flying, but it is what it is.

Reading through some of the ADD-related topics here, it does seem that it's possible to get the diagnosis overturned, although it takes a lot of time & money - would switching to an LSA program be the more practical option at the moment, seeing as I don't need the third-class medical, just a valid driver's license?

The one logistical problem with this plan is: how do I explain it to my instructor? I can't say "I want to switch to LSA because I can't get a third-class medical," because then, if there was an incident in the future & I was investigated by the FAA, he would be held accountable for licensing me with a "disqualifying condition"...although it's technically not a disqualifying condition, because with an LSA license, you don't need a third-class medical. It's definitely a little murky & I am very hesitant to talk to my instructor about it, because I feel that if I say one wrong thing, he might drop me for the sake of liability.

Thoughts? Thank you for any replies.
 
Do you even have the option of training in an LSA with the school/instructor? They have planes available? You may have to switch schools/instructors anyway. In my area, LSA rentals are non-existent.
 
exncsurfer said:
Do you even have the option of training in an LSA with the school/instructor? They have planes available? You may have to switch schools/instructors anyway. In my area, LSA rentals are non-existent.
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Yes. When I first spoke to the instructor, he said he had both LSA & fixed-wing training programs. Originally I told him I was interested in fixed-wing, because I didn't even really know LSA was a thing - I just assumed "fixed-wing" meant any plane with an engine.
 
Find a school that has an LSA and learn there. There are absolutely no ramifications against your current instructor for that. There is nothing for him to be accountable for.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Find a school that has an LSA and learn there. There are absolutely no ramifications against your current instructor for that. There is nothing for him to be accountable for.
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My instructor does do LSA as well. My main worry is how exactly to phrase it. Is it alright to say "I want to switch to LSA because I won't be able to get my third-class medical for my PPL?" I just don't want to say "the wrong thing" & shoot myself in the foot, so to speak.
 
Anonymous said:
Background: I am going for my Private Pilot's License & have about seven hours at the moment. My instructor gave me all the information about the third-class medical, the doctor he uses, & told me to set up an appointment with him. Looking through the disqualifying conditions, I see ADD, which I am diagnosed with - I probably should have researched it all a little more before I actually started flying, but it is what it is.

Reading through some of the ADD-related topics here, it does seem that it's possible to get the diagnosis overturned, although it takes a lot of time & money - would switching to an LSA program be the more practical option at the moment, seeing as I don't need the third-class medical, just a valid driver's license?

The one logistical problem with this plan is: how do I explain it to my instructor? I can't say "I want to switch to LSA because I can't get a third-class medical," because then, if there was an incident in the future & I was investigated by the FAA, he would be held accountable for licensing me with a "disqualifying condition"...although it's technically not a disqualifying condition, because with an LSA license, you don't need a third-class medical. It's definitely a little murky & I am very hesitant to talk to my instructor about it, because I feel that if I say one wrong thing, he might drop me for the sake of liability.

Thoughts? Thank you for any replies.
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"...he had both LSA & fixed-wing training programs..." that statement doesn't make any sense to me. a Light Sport Aircraft is a fixed wing aircraft. in the LSA program you are essentially certifying yourself as medically fit to fly. and keep in mind that if you take and fail the medical you become ineligible for the LSA certificate until and unless you can pass the medical outright or with a special issuance.

consider also contacting Dr. Bruce Chien. he should be able to either help and guide you through the process or at least make a good decision.

good luck.
 
see a hims-ame - best advice - and u will not necessarily need a full hims process
 
Yes, just speak the truth. It isn't your fault you have the ADD diagnosis. Apparently, based on previous threads, it is the diagnosis, not the drugs that will bite you. You will need to spend money to refute the original diagnosis and prove you do not have ADD. This is possible to do (contact Dr. Bruce), but it will take time and money. Go for the LSA and then pursue your private as a longer term goal, if you still want to.
 
rk911 said:
"...he had both LSA & fixed-wing training programs..." that statement doesn't make any sense to me. a Light Sport Aircraft is a fixed wing aircraft. in the LSA program you are essentially certifying yourself as medically fit to fly. and keep in mind that if you take and fail the medical you become ineligible for the LSA certificate until and unless you can pass the medical outright or with a special issuance.

consider also contacting Dr. Bruce Chien. he should be able to either help and guide you through the process or at least make a good decision.

good luck.
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Those were his exact words - I still have the original email correspondence between us. I'm aware that I will become ineligible for an LSA if I fail the third-class medical, that's why I'm considering switching now. If I am not mistaken, the only requirement for an LSA certificate is a valid driver's license, correct?

I have read many positive things about Dr. Bruce here, I will be sure to contact him. Thank you for the recommendation.
 
John221us said:
Yes, just speak the truth. It isn't your fault you have the ADD diagnosis. Apparently, based on previous threads, it is the diagnosis, not the drugs that will bite you. You will need to spend money to refute the original diagnosis and prove you do not have ADD. This is possible to do (contact Dr. Bruce), but it will take time and money. Go for the LSA and then pursue your private as a longer term goal, if you still want to.
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So you don't think that telling my CFI that I will not pass the medical because of ADD will have any negative repercussions for me? Just want to make 110% sure.
 
Quite frankly, you don't really have to tell your instructor anything other than you decided to go light sport for now. If he asks why, you can tell him you have reason to believe that getting a third class medical might be problematic and let it go at that.

Advice to talk to Dr. Bruce is good. Just be up front with him and don't try to hide anything.

If third class medical reform becomes a reality this may all be moot in the future anyway.
 
Anonymous said:
if there was an incident in the future & I was investigated by the FAA, he would be held accountable for licensing me with a "disqualifying condition"
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Bull feathers.

If you and your doctor agree that you are safe to act as PIC in an LSA (if not, you shouldn't be driving a car on the public streets) then there is no "disqualifying condition".

Some people like to argue that you should meet the standards for a third class medical - but that is contrary to what the regulations state. Is the inability to get a first class medical (that you don't need) mean that your third class is invalid? There are different standards for different operations.

If your instructor has an issue with it, find another.
 
Anonymous said:
I'm aware that I will become ineligible for an LSA if I fail the third-class medical, that's why I'm considering switching now. If I am not mistaken, the only requirement for an LSA certificate is a valid driver's license, correct?
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You have to not have a condition that makes you unable to safely operate as PIC. The advice from the FAA is to consult with your family doctor.

See http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...ty=HTML&h=L&mc=true&r=SECTION&n=se14.2.61_153
 
I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer, so take this FWIW, but the FAA has stated in the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners ( https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ces/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd/ ) that:

=======================
Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), formerly Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), and medications used for treatment may produce cognitive deficits that would make an airman unsafe to perform pilot duties. This guideline outlines the requirements for a neuropsychological evaluation.
=======================

Now then, 14 CFR 61.23 states:

=======================
(2) A person using a U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must—
.
.
.
(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.
=======================

Taken together, that all seems to say that you do indeed know of a medical condition that the FAA considers might make you unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner.

Could you get away with flying a LSA on a sport certificate? Yes, almost certainly. OTOH, if you ever had an accident or other investigation, would your ass be fried? Well,......

Have a talk with Dr. Bruce. It might be simple to get the diagnosis cleared up and put the whole thing behind you.
 
good luck Op, I hope it all works out. ADD is a spectrum disorder, which is why you need to see a FAA psych for them to run the test and make sure you don't have ADD bad enough to prohibit you from flying.

It's really a shame, because there are going to be a lot of future pilots denied due to this type of issue.

There should really be a streamlined and inexpensive process to determine how severe the ADD diagnosis is, the FAA should allow the use of ADD medicine while not in the air. They let you get drunk while you aren't flying, once your body metabolizes the medicine, you should be gtg to fly.

The majority of the people I know who are on the meds, having gone to college a lot of students take them, only use them for class or study, not all day everyday.

At one time, the FAA was cool with ADD and concerta, then they changed their mind.
 
midcap said:
The majority of the people I know who are on the meds, having gone to college a lot of students take them, only use them for class or study, not all day everyday.

At one time, the FAA was cool with ADD and concerta, then they changed their mind.
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I'm sure that's true, but wouldn't flying an airplane require at least as much focused attention as studying, say, English Lit?
 
Half Fast said:
I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer, so take this FWIW, but the FAA has stated in the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners ( https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ces/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd/ ) that:

=======================
Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), formerly Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), and medications used for treatment may produce cognitive deficits that would make an airman unsafe to perform pilot duties. This guideline outlines the requirements for a neuropsychological evaluation.
=======================

Now then, 14 CFR 61.23 states:

=======================
(2) A person using a U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must—
.
.
.
(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.
=======================

Taken together, that all seems to say that you do indeed know of a medical condition that the FAA considers might make you unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner.

Could you get away with flying a LSA on a sport certificate? Yes, almost certainly. OTOH, if you ever had an accident or other investigation, would your ass be fried? Well,......

Have a talk with Dr. Bruce. It might be simple to get the diagnosis cleared up and put the whole thing behind you.
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The two large underlined words. The condition or medicine "may", the Rule says "would". The OP stated s/he is off the meds and if the OP can, with good conscience, say that s/he is "able", there is no conflict.
 
Anonymous said:
...If I am not mistaken, the only requirement for an LSA certificate is a valid driver's license, correct?...
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well, yes, but you still have to take and pass the written and the practical as well as a check ride. an LSA certificate limits you to VFR in VMC during daylight hours in a plane certified as an LSA (1320-lbs max weight at take off) with no more than 2-seats. land and sea aircraft are eligible for LSA certification. you'll need an endorsement from your CFI to conduct solo ops in Class D, C and B airspace (and I encourage you to get that endorsement). there are solo, landing and cross-country requirements to complete just as with the PPL. you will still need a student pilot certificate before you solo but there is no medical. and unless something has changed the FSDO will issue the SPC. I have the LSA certificate and am thoroughly enjoying it. I may decide to go for the PPL later...or not. for now I'm perfectly satisfied with what I've earned.

I'm happy to help you with the LSA by answering questions or providing you with insight regarding my experiences.
 
Half Fast said:
I am neither a doctor nor a lawyer, so take this FWIW, but the FAA has stated in the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners ( https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ces/aam/ame/guide/dec_cons/disease_prot/adhd/ ) that:

=======================
Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), formerly Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), and medications used for treatment may produce cognitive deficits that would make an airman unsafe to perform pilot duties. This guideline outlines the requirements for a neuropsychological evaluation.
=======================

Now then, 14 CFR 61.23 states:

=======================
(2) A person using a U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must—
.
.
.
(iv) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.
=======================

Taken together, that all seems to say that you do indeed know of a medical condition that the FAA considers might make you unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner.

Could you get away with flying a LSA on a sport certificate? Yes, almost certainly. OTOH, if you ever had an accident or other investigation, would your ass be fried? Well,......

Have a talk with Dr. Bruce. It might be simple to get the diagnosis cleared up and put the whole thing behind you.
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The problem with your analysis is that the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners has absolutely zero authority with regard to SP. It's a set of guidelines -- not even regulations, but guidelines -- for doctors who perform FAA medicals, not a set of regulations for Sport Pilots. It has zero relevancy to SP.

In fact, if you call the Light Sport branch a thousand times asking whether this, that, or the other condition is grounding, the only answer you'll get is a recommendation to "discuss it with your doctor."

Don't believe me? Give them a call. Their number is (405) 954-6400. Ask about the medical condition of your choice as it relates to flying under the SP rule. Their answer will always be the same: Talk to your doctor about it.

Other than that well-practiced piece of advice, FAA will not touch SP medical fitness questions with either a 10,000-foot pole nor one that is 2,000 feet above AGL long. They decidedly and deliberately distance themselves as far as humanly possible from such questions. Therefore, I will do the same: I recommend that OP talk to his or her doctor about his or her fitness to fly SP, and then make a decision.

Rich
 
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The fact that you are not currently on meds, can apparently drive a car with no problems, and have not raised any red flags with your CFI seems to indicate you might be able to overturn any ADD diagnosis (if you actually have one) relatively easily. The advice to consult Dr. Chien is sound.
 
Half Fast said:
I'm sure that's true, but wouldn't flying an airplane require at least as much focused attention as studying, say, English Lit?
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Well flying isn't at boring as english lit, so there's that. :D

For the type of people I was talking about, it's more of a performance enhancing drug than anything else.
 
Half Fast said:
Hmmmmm....... If I want to enhance my performance as a pilot, should I try some of that stuff? :)
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I don't know about that, I knew people who would just cram the night before the exam, not sleep and then take the test. I told them they were crazy.
 
RJM62 said:
The problem with your analysis is that the Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners has absolutely zero authority with regard to SP. It's a set of guidelines -- not even regulations, but guidelines -- for doctors who perform FAA medicals, not a set of regulations for Sport Pilots. It has zero relevancy to SP.

Rich
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Agreed, the guide is not regulatory. It is, however, informative regarding medical conditions that are considered unsafe for a pilot. 14 CFR 61.23 is regulatory, and since it doesn't describe medical conditions, one must look elsewhere to see what conditions might apply. To my mind, a condition named in the guide becomes an indicator that a sport pilot should seek professional medical advice.

I'm sure the FAA won't give any a priori answers in this area, but I wouldn't make any bets on what they might decide to do as an enforcement action after an accident.
 
Half Fast said:
Agreed, the guide is not regulatory. It is, however, informative regarding medical conditions that are considered unsafe for a pilot. 14 CFR 61.23 is regulatory, and since it doesn't describe medical conditions, one must look elsewhere to see what conditions might apply. To my mind, a condition named in the guide becomes an indicator that a sport pilot should seek professional medical advice.

I'm sure the FAA won't give any a priori answers in this area, but I wouldn't make any bets on what they might decide to do as an enforcement action after an accident.
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Avoiding an accident is more important that what the FAA will say if you have one!
 
Half Fast said:
Agreed, the guide is not regulatory. It is, however, informative regarding medical conditions that are considered unsafe for a pilot. 14 CFR 61.23 is regulatory, and since it doesn't describe medical conditions, one must look elsewhere to see what conditions might apply. To my mind, a condition named in the guide becomes an indicator that a sport pilot should seek professional medical advice.
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Isn't that what I said? :dunno:

Half Fast said:
I'm sure the FAA won't give any a priori answers in this area, but I wouldn't make any bets on what they might decide to do as an enforcement action after an accident.
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If an SP does what the FAA advises by discussing the aeromedical implications of their health with their doctor (and not flying against their doctor's advice), and if the SP documents same, then I don't think they have much to worry about. I actually note my medical visits in my log book to document them. It may not help, but I doubt it hurts.

If an SP does not follow his or her doctors' advice, on the other hand, or flies when they have been urged not to, then they probably have quite a bit to worry about -- FAA and NTSB aside.

Rich
 
Greg Bockelman said:
If third class medical reform becomes a reality this may all be moot in the future anyway.
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How? I thought the reform makes it easier after you get your medical, but the first time is essentially the same?
 
Maybe so. I guess I don't know enough about it. It doesn't directly affect me so I haven't been following it that closely.
 
kiddbats said:
Yes I thought the same thing it only helps on renewals
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Supposed to delete it altogether. Like LSA rules. Problem is Ryan's bozos in the house are doing what they can for the goodies they get from those wanting to add crap to the bill for privatization of ATC and other nonsense. Everyone wants to get rich in DC these days....
 
UPDATE for anybody who has been following this thread:

Following the advice of many of the response I got, I contacted Dr. Bruce & told him about my situation...it's not too pretty.

For the ADD diagnosis itself, he said it would cost ~$4000 (in my area) to get all the appropriate testing done to hopefully overturn the diagnosis. There is still obviously a chance that the results of the tests will show that I do "have" ADD, & I will have wasted quite a bit of money.

I also told him about the other psychiatric diagnoses that I have (major depressive disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, & social anxiety disorder), & that there is possibly use of an illicit substance documented somewhere in the years worth of notes from psychiatrists & psychologists. For this, he said I would have to undergo two years of monthly drug testing & see an FAA psych to determine that I am "recovered" & no longer at risk for addiction - this would cost another ~$3000.

So to get my PPL, I will have to fork over ~$7000 (basically pay for my PPL twice...), take drug tests for two years, visit an FAA psych to convince him that I'm not longer an "addict" (not that I never was - but it seems like to the FAA, use of illicit substance even once means that you are an "addict"), & THEN get my third-class medical.

That being said, I think I'm going with LSA...

Has anybody else had to jump through this many hoops to get a medical, & if so, were you successful? Part of me doesn't want to give up & keep going for it, but two years is a long time to wait, & there is the possibility that my ADD diagnosis will not be retracted, making the whole thing a big waste of time & money...
 
Well I started with LSA during training. A local school had a brand new Cirrus SR22. He took me on a flight during training. The moment we landed I decided to go PPL. Spending 7K anywhere else would be like "oh gosh, that's a lot of money". In aviation - drop in the bucket. Me? Personally, IF POSSIBLE I would get my LSA and start doing whatever it took to get my medical. Not sure if that is possible, but if it is - I would careless about the money and get it done. If I was told I had to wait the 2 years before I could fly - well, then I'm not sure if I could wait....

BUT don't NOT do this because of the money. Again, in aviation - that aint sh**T
 
EminiTrader said:
Well I started with LSA during training. A local school had a brand new Cirrus SR22. He took me on a flight during training. The moment we landed I decided to go PPL. Spending 7K anywhere else would be like "oh gosh, that's a lot of money". In aviation - drop in the bucket. Me? Personally, IF POSSIBLE I would get my LSA and start doing whatever it took to get my medical. Not sure if that is possible, but if it is - I would careless about the money and get it done. If I was told I had to wait the 2 years before I could fly - well, then I'm not sure if I could wait....

BUT don't NOT do this because of the money. Again, in aviation - that aint sh**T
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The money isn't a complete deal-breaker. Yes, it is a large sum, but getting a PPL to begin with is on average 10k+...it's more the two-year wait & the possibility of me spending all this money on psychiatric testing only for me to be determined unfit for a medical after all that.
 
Let me see if I have all this straight: you have ADD, major depressive disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, social anxiety disorder, plus at least one incident of illegal use of a controlled substance.

Is your CFI aware of all this? Is he still willing to provide instruction? Seems like even for Sport he might at least want to see a note or two from your doctor saying you're not a risk, just for his own piece of mind.
 
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