Gliders/Flight Following

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charris911

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charris911
Couple weekends ago, flew with a buddy in his glider. Interesting stuff!!!

Just a thought, when I have VFR flight following, do the controllers see the gliders on radar? Ultralights, balloons?

I assume ATC is able to see blips on radar for non-transponder airplanes, with no altitude. I've heard them call "unverifiable" traffic at xx position, and I guessed it was an airplane, but could that be a glider w/no transponder?

Thanks!


http://youtu.be/8HWFWy5gru0
 
Some of the guys in my club are looking into adding an xponder so they can be seen on TCAS systems. I can't imagine that a carbon fiber or fiberglass glider will show up on radar. Without an xponder they couldn't xmit a squawk code for FF anyway.
 
A lot of clubs do call the local ATC facility to let them know when they're operating.
 
Approach will often tell me about 'traffic, no altitude, may be birds'.

So if birds bounce back enough microwaves to show up on their radar, why not a human sitting in a glider? :dunno:
 
charris911 said:
Couple weekends ago, flew with a buddy in his glider. Interesting stuff!!!

Just a thought, when I have VFR flight following, do the controllers see the gliders on radar? Ultralights, balloons?

I assume ATC is able to see blips on radar for non-transponder airplanes, with no altitude. I've heard them call "unverifiable" traffic at xx position, and I guessed it was an airplane, but could that be a glider w/no transponder?
Click to expand...

Airport Surveillance Radar can show flocks of birds so it might show a sailplane. I've had hot air balloons in sight from the tower without even a hint of a primary radar return. Air Route Surveillance Radar doesn't even show small metal aircraft very well so I wouldn't expect a composite sailplane to register. Some ARSR sites are just beacon interrogators; no transponder means no target no matter the aircraft.
 
roncachamp said:
I've had hot air balloons in sight from the tower without even a hint of a primary radar return.
Click to expand...

Steven, could that be because they move slowly? I thought that as part of its noise-reduction scheme, ATC radar displays filter out slow-moving targets.
 
NoHeat said:
Steven, could that be because they move slowly? I thought that as part of its noise-reduction scheme, ATC radar displays filter out slow-moving targets.
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MTI, Moving Target Indicator, filters out stationary targets, not slow targets. We could at times see a string of primary targets that followed the interstate as it crossed the Niagara Escarpment southeast of the airport. Truck convoy. We could even see stationary targets, in a way. Wind turbines are fixed but the spinning rotors make pretty good radar reflectors.
 
Matthew said:
Some of the guys in my club are looking into adding an xponder so they can be seen on TCAS systems. I can't imagine that a carbon fiber or fiberglass glider will show up on radar. Without an xponder they couldn't xmit a squawk code for FF anyway.
Click to expand...

Actually, I've gotten FF once and the controller didn't give me a code to squawk. It was a quiet evening on his frequency, and I guess he didn't have many airplanes to deal with.
 
I know that our LS-4 and Grob 103 fiberglass gliders show up on local approach radar as a primary return. It is hit or miss depending on aspect angle to the radar site. Head on or tail on, not so good, turning with long wings and wing to fuselage juncture, better return.
we are only 20-30nm from the radar site.

Primary return = "skin paint"

Migrating birds show up on radar, especially in formations, because of the water in their bellies.
 
Standard cirrus showed up on Wichita's radar with a primary. They gave me permission to overfly the class c based on that which was nice.
 
Where we fly gliders it is so rural that there is no reason for a transponder. Good old grass strip.
 
All of our gliders have transponders and they gave us a special transponder code because we fly off a grass strip less than a mile from Class C airspace.
 
tonycondon said:
you don't use 1202?
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Minden area gliders were using 0440, then change to 1202 leaving the area.
0440 conflicts with another use assigned by Joshua Appch in the China Lake NAS, Edwards AFB area.
 
What transponders are you seeing used in gliders? Are the fixed or portable (the unit, not the antenna, naturally.) Are you permitted to operate them sporadically or is ATC forcing you to keep them on all the time?
 
I don't think there is such thing as a portable transponder. i suppose you could make something up but legally it has to be permanently installed. I have a Microair in the Cherokee and that is what we are putting in the Cirrus
 
Matthew said:
Some of the guys in my club are looking into adding an xponder so they can be seen on TCAS systems. I can't imagine that a carbon fiber or fiberglass glider will show up on radar. Without an xponder they couldn't xmit a squawk code for FF anyway.
Click to expand...

I asked a controller at my local drome if they could see a composite like my DA20 as a primary target (no xponder) and he assured me that they could.
 
tonycondon said:
Standard cirrus showed up on Wichita's radar with a primary. They gave me permission to overfly the class c based on that which was nice.
Click to expand...

N5922S said:
I asked a controller at my local drome if they could see a composite like my DA20 as a primary target (no xponder) and he assured me that they could.
Click to expand...

That's good to know. But with only a primary, wouldn't ATC just be limited to pointing you out to someone else?

At least in Tony's case they were able to ID him enough to let him overfly a C-space.
 
they would be able to say "traffic x o clock, altitude unknown"
 
jnmeade said:
What transponders are you seeing used in gliders? Are the fixed or portable (the unit, not the antenna, naturally.) Are you permitted to operate them sporadically or is ATC forcing you to keep them on all the time?
Click to expand...

Ours are built in to the panel I dont know the specifics though.

The way we do it is when we take off behind the tow plane the transponder is in standby mode. Then we get towed up and release and then we put it to altitude which is when it starts sending out data to atc. Then we land and switch it back to standby.
 
jnmeade said:
What transponders are you seeing used in gliders? Are the fixed or portable (the unit, not the antenna, naturally.) Are you permitted to operate them sporadically or is ATC forcing you to keep them on all the time?
Click to expand...

We are installing Trig 21 transponders.
I have not seen a portable transponder, installation only.

ATC does not force gliders to carry a transponder, neither does the FARs.
But if you have one certified installation, and you are flying, it must be on.
 
Seanaldinho said:
Ours are built in to the panel I dont know the specifics though.

The way we do it is when we take off behind the tow plane the transponder is in standby mode. Then we get towed up and release and then we put it to altitude which is when it starts sending out data to atc. Then we land and switch it back to standby.
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Any reason why standby while on tow? The tow plane is most likely squawking 1200, the glider should be on 1202.
 
BillTIZ said:
Any reason why standby while on tow? The tow plane is most likely squawking 1200, the glider should be on 1202.
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I wonder if two transponders that close together would keep setting off an annoying collision alarm on the screen of the responsible controller.
 
weilke said:
I wonder if two transponders that close together would keep setting off an annoying collision alarm on the screen of the responsible controller.
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Both towplane and sailplane squawk at our operation and have never been told not to by ATC.
 
BillTIZ said:
Any reason why standby while on tow? The tow plane is most likely squawking 1200, the glider should be on 1202.
Click to expand...

I would assume its by the request of ATC because they get nervous seeing 2 planes so close together :dunno:

And as mentioned earlier our gliders were told to squawk 0200.

weilke said:
I wonder if two transponders that close together would keep setting off an annoying collision alarm on the screen of the responsible controller.
Click to expand...

Thats my guess.
 
Flight from Hooks (Houston) to College Station, on VFR flight following. Approach pointed out, "two targets, no squawk...11 o'clock, unknown altitude".

It was two gliders....answered my question...at least sometimes, they see something.
 
I've gotten traffic warnings like "traffic 10 o'clock type unknown altitude unknown looks like a glider." I presume that means it's flying in circles at slow ground speed.
 
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