Given a choice on fuel
- Thread starter Utah-Jay
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erickfprevost
Filing Flight Plan
Flying at several airports, I always make sure to take fuel every so often to keep everyone happy. It also helps to avoid getting charged ramp fees on the days you don't buy fuel
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
Too many variables left out to allow an informed choice.
Hell yes, cheapest fuel I can get. $1 a gallon will save me $100+ on my typical fill.
poadeleted20
Deleted
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Ditto.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
I try to avoid 100LL whenever possible. Even if it was the same price.
Utah-Jay
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ok, the poll is a small sample, but pretty much what I thought.
I saw, yes SAW, a business opportunity as the airport in question is $1.66 more expensive than another slightly smaller airport in the same county (both are run by the county).
Spoke to the county official who oversees the airports this morning, seems my proposal would have to be submitted in writing (no big surprise here and expected) and then put up for public bidding. I might or might not (read no way for a first timer) get the bid should they actually decide to put an end to the current monopoly.
There is a serious opportunity for a low overhead fuel only operation here, so this is really disappointing.
Of course after I realized this was never going to happen I mentioned in a very non-combative manner that this is essentially a price fixing monopoly they have created. I pointed out that the difference in retail costs is due to a high demand with absolutely no competition. She then retreated her argument to low demand at the smaller airport, which I pointed out that supply and demand work in both directions, and competition at the larger airport would be good for everyone.
We also discussed Hangars, which she pointed out had not gone up in price in 4-5 years. I pointed out that the economy has gone down during that period, and those 5 year old prices were the result of a rapidly growing economy. Yes, I feel there was a secondary opportunity with hangars (current price is $650.00 per month). When I mentioned the current pricing was from previously inflated economy relative to today's GA aviation, I was tersely told she had an MBA in Business.
Oh well, rant over!
I saw, yes SAW, a business opportunity as the airport in question is $1.66 more expensive than another slightly smaller airport in the same county (both are run by the county).
Spoke to the county official who oversees the airports this morning, seems my proposal would have to be submitted in writing (no big surprise here and expected) and then put up for public bidding. I might or might not (read no way for a first timer) get the bid should they actually decide to put an end to the current monopoly.
There is a serious opportunity for a low overhead fuel only operation here, so this is really disappointing.
Of course after I realized this was never going to happen I mentioned in a very non-combative manner that this is essentially a price fixing monopoly they have created. I pointed out that the difference in retail costs is due to a high demand with absolutely no competition. She then retreated her argument to low demand at the smaller airport, which I pointed out that supply and demand work in both directions, and competition at the larger airport would be good for everyone.
We also discussed Hangars, which she pointed out had not gone up in price in 4-5 years. I pointed out that the economy has gone down during that period, and those 5 year old prices were the result of a rapidly growing economy. Yes, I feel there was a secondary opportunity with hangars (current price is $650.00 per month). When I mentioned the current pricing was from previously inflated economy relative to today's GA aviation, I was tersely told she had an MBA in Business.
Oh well, rant over!
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*Hangars* If you're going to submit a proposal, it would be best to get the spelling correct, hangers are for clothes in a closet.
alfadog
Final Approach
For the club aircraft, I pay about $0.50 more for full-serve at the neighboring FBO than the self-serve on the other side of the field (tie-down FBO has no fuel). The club gets an $0.80 discount at the FBO bringing it down to the $0.50 or so difference and it is just easier all around to use the FBO. I get the same price at the FBO when I fuel other aircraft so it is not worth the hassle and cost to land on the "wrong" runway (9L instead of 9R) and taxi around.
MickYoumans
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MickYoumans
None of your choices directly work for me. My home airport does not have fuel. On cross countries with a choice of multiple airports to stop for fuel, lowest cost is definately a factor on which one i will choose if other considerations are pretty much equal.
If my home airport did have fuel, I would purchase fuel there for convience as long as the price was not too far off the norm.
If my home airport did have fuel, I would purchase fuel there for convience as long as the price was not too far off the norm.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
And that's when you come back with "And the best you could get with that was this job? You should ask for a refund."
I've found that those that have to trot out their MBA degrees don't have real work knowledge. Had the same thing with one of our supplies that was absolutely clueless. Everything to them is theory, and never takes into account that customers are what actually pay their salaries.
Jhernandez04
Line Up and Wait
Pretty much. Will your loyalty towards your FBO make you defer saving 100$ per fill up?
Nope, sorry FBO. I'll use you when I can but saving money keeps me in the air.
Utah-Jay
Pre-takeoff checklist
That was my plan, yes!
The county administrator did not like my idea.
I was happy to run a low overhead, low margin high volume avgas business.
Essentially I was told to jump through some hoops, make my idea/business plan public, and put it out to public bid.
Perezhr
Pre-takeoff checklist
In order for me to have loyalty towards my FBO they would first have to do something to warrant my loyalty. They do not. I rent a hangar from them that is old as dirt and they barely do anything to maintain it (I do most of the hangar maintenance). They offer me no price break on fuel even though the other FBO in the field has a self serve with gas over a dollar cheaper per gallon. Needless to say, I have never purchased fuel from them.
N747JB
Final Approach
I buy some fuel at my FBO, I have two airplanes hangared there, $500.00 per month each!
Their fuel is $1-2.00 per gallon higher than most places I can buy fuel. I don't take off, stop at the next airport and buy fuel, I buy what I need at home for the outbound trip and if I can, I will tanker some extra home so I don't need to buy the entire amount for the next trip. 
So, fuel prices to make a big difference to most of us. I seldom buy 100 LL for the 182 at home, it's ALWAYS cheaper on the road and I usually don't go to far anyway.
Their fuel is $1-2.00 per gallon higher than most places I can buy fuel. I don't take off, stop at the next airport and buy fuel, I buy what I need at home for the outbound trip and if I can, I will tanker some extra home so I don't need to buy the entire amount for the next trip. So, fuel prices to make a big difference to most of us. I seldom buy 100 LL for the 182 at home, it's ALWAYS cheaper on the road and I usually don't go to far anyway. 
LT4247
Pre-takeoff checklist
I was gonna guess LZU for you but see you are at FTY. For what its worth i flew the Maule into ATL (biz,no choice) this week and paid $8.99 gal for 100ll!! Landmark is the only FBO on field and it shows!! $40 facility fee, $5 security fee, $6 landing fee. fun but crazy expensive. Hoping this makes you feel better but sure it doesn't.
I buy some fuel at my FBO, I have two airplanes hangared there, $500.00 per month each!
Utah-Jay
Pre-takeoff checklist
I was gonna guess LZU for you but see you are at FTY. For what its worth i flew the Maule into ATL (biz,no choice) this week and paid $8.99 gal for 100ll!! Landmark is the only FBO on field and it shows!! $40 facility fee, $5 security fee, $6 landing fee. fun but crazy expensive. Hoping this makes you feel better but sure it doesn't.
Landmark holds the monopoly at the airport I was trying to start my business, F45
bnt83
Final Approach
Only if it's actually cheaper in the long run. Do the math.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
So do it. With the internet today, you can put together a reasonably professional business plan in a matter of a day or two. Charts, graphs, P/L, costing, tax consequence, safety, county and state biz license, etc.
Nothing stopping you now but your own lack of effort. So they put it out to bid. When the public bid comes up - bid what you think it's worth. If that means an extra $500 to the county to get started so what. $500 bucks is nothing. If you bid $501, and it's accepted they gotta play by the rules.
LT4247
Pre-takeoff checklist
ZHunter,
Interesting. We also tried to buy out an FBO/airport operation and came to a nice agreement with the owner. We were all set and very excited about our new venture. However, once we met with the county govt people it was like hitting a brick wall! They were overbearing, demanding and their proposed contract was not only unreasonable but long term to boot. I mean you would have thought we were the enemy or something! All we wanted to do was invest, hire folks and promote their county. Of course make a little profit along the way, too. They told us no negotiations. Take the agreement or hit the road. Honestly we were shocked! We felt we had no choice so we walked. We understand 3 other firms got the same song and dance and they all walked too. So now the county is trying to run it on their own. Its a joke.
So dont feel bad, it is not just you these things happen to.
Good luck.
Interesting. We also tried to buy out an FBO/airport operation and came to a nice agreement with the owner. We were all set and very excited about our new venture. However, once we met with the county govt people it was like hitting a brick wall! They were overbearing, demanding and their proposed contract was not only unreasonable but long term to boot. I mean you would have thought we were the enemy or something! All we wanted to do was invest, hire folks and promote their county. Of course make a little profit along the way, too. They told us no negotiations. Take the agreement or hit the road. Honestly we were shocked! We felt we had no choice so we walked. We understand 3 other firms got the same song and dance and they all walked too. So now the county is trying to run it on their own. Its a joke.
So dont feel bad, it is not just you these things happen to.
Good luck.
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Alexb2000
En-Route
I just came back from KNEW (New Orleans Lakefront). I paid $5.50 for 100LL, $20 for a hangar night, no other fees. There are two other FBO's on the field. Landmark charges $7.34 for 100LL with a $50 per night hangar fee. I put on ~50 gals and saved $92 plus $30 on the hangar or $122 JUST for parking at one FBO over another. The FBO I used is as nice as any I've ever been in. Even so Landmark was full of aircraft.
Who understands peoples fuel choices?
Who understands peoples fuel choices?
My concern with starting a fueling operation in Fla is the STRICT ground contamination laws in place....
Suppose someone at a self serv pump screws up and dumps a few gallons on the ground... and then flys off.... I would think the state would BBQ your ass as the owner / responsible party of the site ......
Suppose someone at a self serv pump screws up and dumps a few gallons on the ground... and then flys off.... I would think the state would BBQ your ass as the owner / responsible party of the site ....
..
Utah-Jay
Pre-takeoff checklist
My concern with starting a fueling operation in Fla is the STRICT ground contamination laws in place....
Suppose someone at a self serv pump screws up and dumps a few gallons on the ground... and then flys off.... I would think the state would BBQ your ass as the owner / responsible party of the site ....
This would be full service via a truck
Bingo
N747JB
Final Approach
I was gonna guess LZU for you but see you are at FTY. For what its worth i flew the Maule into ATL (biz,no choice) this week and paid $8.99 gal for 100ll!! Landmark is the only FBO on field and it shows!! $40 facility fee, $5 security fee, $6 landing fee. fun but crazy expensive. Hoping this makes you feel better but sure it doesn't.
I have all my maintenance done at CNI, so I get fuel there, my son is at UGA so I get fuel there, our condo is in Destin and I get fuel there, all cheaper than home base.
I fly into SOP, Pinehurst NC, last week, fuel wasn't bad, but $50.00 per night ramp fee, not even tied down! 
I bought 100 gallons of Jet-A and with the fee it was $615.00 or so.
alfadog
Final Approach
My concern with starting a fueling operation in Fla is the STRICT ground contamination laws in place....
Suppose someone at a self serv pump screws up and dumps a few gallons on the ground... and then flys off.... I would think the state would BBQ your ass as the owner / responsible party of the site ....
No biggie. Reportable quantity is 25 gallons and then only if it reaches soil. Assuming that it does not reach the waters of the state (not groundwater) which is not an issue at F45.
Interesting.....
I "heard" from several pilots that if you get caught throwing even a drop of gas on the ground after sumping your tanks on a plane, the fine is 50 thousand dollars...
..........
alfadog
Final Approach
Interesting.....
I "heard" from several pilots that if you get caught throwing even a drop of gas on the ground after sumping your tanks on a plane, the fine is 50 thousand dollars...
LOL. It is not even a "discharge" under statute unless it reaches the lands or waters of the state. Note that air is not considered. So if you dump fuel on the ramp and it evaporates before reaching a pervious surface, no discharge has occurred. That is the state rule, there may be local ordinances that prohibit willfully dumping petroleum on an impervious surface but I kinda doubt that.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
state law is rational. not sure about federal law.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4
alfadog
Final Approach
Interesting.....
I "heard" from several pilots that if you get caught throwing even a drop of gas on the ground after sumping your tanks on a plane, the fine is 50 thousand dollars...
Let me give you an example of how far wrong that sort of old wife's crap is. The below is from the Florida state statute for marine discharges. Remember, it is not a discharge unless it reaches the land or waters of the state.
"(3) A person responsible for two or more discharges of any pollutant reported pursuant to s. 376.12 within a 12-month period at the same facility commits a noncriminal infraction and shall be cited by the department for such infraction.
(a) For discharges of gasoline or diesel equal to or less than 5 gallons, the civil penalty shall be $50 for each discharge subsequent to the first." (emphasis added)
alfadog
Final Approach
Florida statutes are more stringent than federal in this area and are enforced in lieu of Federal, i.e. Florida is a designated program state.
Hmmmmmm...
interesting.....
interesting.....
alfadog
Final Approach
Hmmmmmm...
interesting.....
There is a $50k number under statute but that is the maximum daily penalty for continuing violation by an operator and would only be assessed for grievous violation. One of the facilities I was responsible for discharged at least 5,000 gallons of diesel to groundwater right next to Biscayne Bay and I doubt we paid more than $10k for the fine. What eats you alive is the remediation costs.
alfadog
Final Approach
Hmmmmmm...
interesting.....
Here is what Miami-Dade County has to say about spilling fuel on the ramp at its airports:
"25-6.11
Care of aircraft ramp, apron and parking areas. Any person, including the owners or operators of aircraft and into-plane fuelers, causing overflowing or spilling of oil, grease, fuel, sanitary waste water, any hazardous material or any similar material anywhere on an Airport, shall be responsible for the immediate clean-up of such spillage and notification as required by subsection 25-6.23(e)..." (emphasis added)
The notification comes in if the spill is over five feet in diameter. The maximum fine is $500. So if you dump your GATS jar on the ramp and do not immediately move to clean it up then you could be hit for up to $500. Point being, if you spill fuel while fueling (less than five feet diameter spill), stop fueling and start looking for something to clean it up with while it evaporates, just do not continue fueling and you should be fine. Not a bad idea in any event.
N747JB
Final Approach
I know others have disagreed, but there is a sign posted on the ramp at DTS that I interpreted the same way. $50K for throwing fuel on the ground, I'll try to get a picture of it next time I am there. In any event, it kept me from throwing my fuel samples on the ground.
Interesting.....
I "heard" from several pilots that if you get caught throwing even a drop of gas on the ground after sumping your tanks on a plane, the fine is 50 thousand dollars...