Give Up on Buying Plane, or Dive In?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
Who else faces this difficult decision?

No one wants a plane more than I do. I can afford one, and it would be extremely appealing to know I could just head to the airport an fly any time...and to keep my own plane clean and beautiful. It would be a Cirrus or a Saratoga / Lance.

Sadlly, the more I talk to people, the more I think it's a myth to think a plane is like a car...rarely having problems and always ready to go. Comments appreciated here!

Reasons to buy: :yes:

* I REALLY want to! Life is short. My 175 hours a year habit could by itself pay for my own plane.

* Could really get to know ONE plane instead of many, making my IFR goal easier.

* I can take it for a week or weekend and no minimums.

Reasons not to buy:
 :no:

* Planes are frequently in the shop anyway...regular maintenance, annual maintenance, and the unexpected; therefore, my dream of having it there waiting for me is not real anyway.

* I'm no mechanic, so even small things will require repairs.

* I don't have time for a constant stream of maintenance issues, because I work long hours; many of my friends who bought planes regret it due to the stream of issues and expenses.

* I would want to stay in my flying club anyway (and associated costs).

* Mostly, the dream of freedom...a "carefree" joyful, trouble-free journey with my own plane is a myth.

My current alternative is to belong to a flying club, and to stay checked out at multiple FBO's. That way, I at least can usually fly when I want.

Would be very interested in comments from owners! Thank you!
 
Stuff owning you is definitely a part of airplane ownership. Course that is a personality thing, some people thrive on the minutia of keeping all the things that own them in order. Sounds like you don't want to be a slave to stuff. Any interest in slow little put put planes? Asking cause if you have club access to go fast(ish) planes consider owning something fun and cheap. Less pain if you decide it isn't for you. Course if you don't like that kind of flying the question is moot.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
No one wants a plane more than I do. I can afford one, and it would be extremely appealing to know I could just head to the airport an fly any time...and to keep my own plane clean and beautiful.
Would be very interested in comments from owners! Thank you!
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Affording a plane is usually the limitation for most people. If you can afford it, I say go for it. If you do a good job of preventative maintenance during your annual, you probably won't have much to deal with the remainder of the year other than routine items like oil changes. At least that has been the experience I have had with the two I've owned. I live in a small town and there are no rentals or flying clubs here so for me to fly it is either ownership or drive 45 minutes to an airport with rentals. I tried to go that route after I sold my first plane. That was not a practical expectation to drive that far just to rent, so I bought another plane and I'm a happy owner again. No, you don't use an airplane every day like you do your car, but it sure is nice to have when you need it or just want to go flying for the fun of it. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do. Ultimately you are the only one that can truely evaluates how an airplane would fit into your life and budget.
 
I kind of compare the care and feeding of a small GA plane to that of a vintage sport car, like an MG or a Austin Healy. You can use the vintage car to get you around, but you need to know how to do some things, or you'll be stranded once in a while.

Vintage sports cars, and by extension GA planes are not for the utility model person who considers a 2012 Toyota to be the car of choice for motive power. GA planes are not utility devices, they are much more like the 62 MG, or 71 Fiat, with all it's charm and warts.

If you really, really, really want a plane and don't want to mess with much get the most bone-stock, low tech plane you can, and see that's it's kept in tip-top shape. A C-152, or Grumman AA5, Piper PA-28-140, or similar will have the highest availability because there's just not that much to go wrong, and all the kinks have been worked out of them by now.

At the other end of the spectrum are things like the C-340, Aerostar, etc which requires a fair amount of TLC on a regular basis to maintain.

I had a Grumman that I took mostly apart, fixed all the OPs mistakes, and for more than a year I could go out any day and fly without a concern. You would have to pay someone to go through the plane to get started, but once up to your standards, it'll have good dispatch reliability. I would recommend the Grumman over the others because it has a spring gear, and no strut nose. However, having said that, there are some things to look for in the nose strut attach of the Grumman. Once that's checked, and you don't bang it into the runway, it'll go for many years of good service. Bone stock Lyc engine, lube the sliding cowl rails on schedule, make sure the fuel selector doesn't bind, and it's all good.
 
Greg...love put puts, but my main mission is flying 4 fairly hefty adults to fun destinations in the Southwest. Even the Cirrus strains under the useful loads I need.
 
tough decisions. I'm currently in the "dreaming" phase, but at least you're past the monetary part of the purchase. your "I'm no mechanic" comment has me a little concerned, I mean I have to imagine plane ownership is similar to boat ownership (or motorcycles, etc..) in that there is ALWAYS tinkering, fixing, rewiring etc that needs to be done. If you're not going to do any of that on your own, that might be an issue. the 175 hours/year does seem to justify your 'need' for your own. tough call.

oh wait, you asked for comments from owners, sorry.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Greg...love put puts, but my main mission is flying 4 fairly hefty adults to fun destinations in the Southwest. Even the Cirrus strains under the useful loads I need.
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OK, I can fix that too.

Beech A23-24 Super III. Bone simple, hauls over half a ton, slow as all get out and low mx(once up to good standards).
 
Simple, if you are chasing a dream or myth, don't buy an airplane. If you think you will save money (i.e. spend less) then don't buy an airplane.

If you are realistic about the costs and benefits and you are willing to pay those costs to have the benefits, buy.

Since you have friends who own airplanes and I assume only some of those friends regret owning, it seems you have a handy research pool at hand. Did the unhappy owners buy cheap within the range or buy more airplane than they can afford? Do they use good shops for maintenance and repair? Are they made unhappy by things that wouldn't particularly bother you? How do they compare to the happy owners? I think you could do some informational interviewing and arrive at a good understanding of their experiences and assess your own reaction to their experiences.

Owning a personal airplane is a largely irrational decision, one that costs money, time and includes a fair amount of risk. At the end of the day, I usually advise someone trying to justify the decision rationally to follow that famous Texas advice on the three important things in life: "rent don't buy".

Good luck.
Scott
 
If you fly 175 hours a year, then I don't see a reason why that money couldn't be spent towards your own airplane. But then again I don't know what your flying clubs prices are like. Ownership can be trying at times, but there is just something cool about saying you own an airplane.
 
Choose a plane that meets your needs. Get in touch with a "guru" mechanic that knows all the ins and outs. Search for the plane that has been given meticulous care and pay the guru to inspect it.
He will tell you what the plane will need in the next 5 years for scheduled maintenance.
Be ready for the unexpected exhaust valve problem.
Spend the big bucks and buy the cream of the crop, don't cheap out.
Keep it in a hangar.
From references of other owners, find the best local mechanic, give him a $100 dollar bill and say thank you for being my mechanic.
 
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I can recall scratching a flight once due to maintenance issues in 5 years. Had a flat tire. If I had a tube handy, that flight would have gone on. The first few weeks of owning my Bo required ironing out some bugs but after that, no issues. The longer you keep the plane, you become more "in tune" with its needs.

Sounds like you need an A36, pa32/lance 210 or similar.
 
docmirror said:
If you really, really, really want a plane and don't want to mess with much get the most bone-stock, low tech plane you can, and see that's it's kept in tip-top shape. A C-152, or Grumman AA5, Piper PA-28-140, RV-12 or similar will have the highest availability because there's just not that much to go wrong, and all the kinks have been worked out of them by now.

.
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(well, the -12 could still have kinks, but it is as, if not more simple than the others mentioned and has the same performance characteristics){and, you can bring it home when it isn't in use}
 
oldShar said:
(well, the -12 could still have kinks, but it is as, if not more simple than the others mentioned and has the same performance characteristics){and, you can bring it home when it isn't in use}
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Originally Posted by docmirror View Post

If you really, really, really want a plane and don't want to mess with much get the most bone-stock, low tech plane you can, and see that's it's kept in tip-top shape. A C-152, or Grumman AA5, Piper PA-28-140, RV-12 or similar will have the highest availability because there's just not that much to go wrong, and all the kinks have been worked out of them by now.

********************************************************
C-152 - $14-29k
AA5 - $18-29k
PA-28 - $15-27k
Vans RV-12 - $123k

One of these things is not like the others. Can you find it? :lol:
 
This is a question with a very personal answer. We are all different, with different interests, pet peeves, etc., etc., & etc., so it's difficult to advise someone on such a matter. Sort of like giving stock market advice.

That said, I was in a similar situation about three years ago. Although I only have a put-put, not a traveler, I am EXTREMELY pleased that I went forward and bought the plane. As I was in the process, it was almost an out of body experience. I couldn't believe that I was doing it. Once the decision was made and I went forward, I've never looked back.

I've worked hard my whole life, and if I can't afford myself a totally unjustifiable joy from time to time, then what's the point? I would do it all over again.
 
Of course you should buy the plane! What are you thinking? :wink2: It's not even a question.

I'm on my second plane now and here's the MO: Yes, they will spend some time in the shop getting fixed. But very rarely is this due to things breaking down when you're just about to launch on that important trip - it's almost always preventive stuff that can be deferred. And with preventive stuff, you can normally tailor it to fit a period when you're not going to fly much anyway. That's what I used to do - whenever I had something I wanted taken care of, I scheduled it for when I was away on a business trip anyway. Most things that need attention are non-critical. Very rarely are they of the grounding kind or leave-the-airplane-behind-kind.

In the years with my 60 year old beat up Commander with over TBO engines I had to leave her behind twice. Considering the shape she was in, that was a pretty impressive average. On the new one, that hasn't happened yet. So my dispatch has been very good.

Go for it - you won't regret it.
 
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I have owned several aircraft. Flying 160 hrs a year minimum,wouldn't have it any other way. It's there when I want to fly. Maintenance can be a pain ocasionaly,but so can not being able to get the club plane due to maintenance.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
..................Comments appreciated here!

Reasons to buy: :yes:

* I REALLY want to! Life is short. My 175 hours a year habit could by itself pay for my own plane.

* Could really get to know ONE plane instead of many, making my IFR goal easier.

* I can take it for a week or weekend and no minimums.
Click to expand...
Focus..........:wink2:
 
Justifying an Airplane ownership is very hard to do.

If it is for work like a doctor who has his practice here but lives in another town. If he drives it is 321 miles and 5.5 hour but if he flies it is 237 NM and 1.25 hours. He can justify the expense of a plane.

If it is just for fun I do not know of any justification other than Life is Short and the plane make you feel good when you fly.

I think a Lance or Saratoga would fit your mission.
 
We (3 co-owners in an LLC) have but around 1700 hours on our 182 in the last 9-1/2 years. While there has certainly been plenty of scheduled maintenance and upgrade "down time", there have been exactly two times in all those years where the plane was not able to be dispatched on a scheduled flight due to a mechanical issue. One was dead battery (so, now we have a Battery Minder on it all the time in the hangar), the other was a temporary AOG away from home when the flaps got stuck at 20 degrees due to a bad flap microswitch.

My advice - buy the plane, and either trade time in it for services with a local A&P, or find a mechanically-inclined partner.

If you're comfortable with the flying club aspects of sharing a plane...just start your "own" via a partnership. Then you get to set all the rules.
 
One hundred seventy-five hours a year? Multiple FBO's plus a club? YGBFSM!

Buy your own aircraft now. Find an A&P IA you can trust. Check out the aircraft management services if you want someone to handle the details.

Yup there will be down times and breakdowns. They aren't bad after the first few months of getting everything fixed that the previous owner neglected.
 
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I've owned several planes and never really rented. Well maybe some about 30 years ago. My experience has Been if you spend a little more up front and buy a little newer or lower houred, well maintained plane there really isn't a lot of unexpected maintenence. If you are flying 175 hours a year now you will probably fly another 50 or more extra owning your own. So if you don't do any work on it yourself it will be getting at least a oil change every 2 to 3 months in shop. While they are doing that you can ask them to look things over so there probably won't be much if anything unexpected come up. I don't find too many little things coming up to interfere with flying when I want. Sounds like you have flown enough you know what you want for a plane. I just hand flew my wife's 172 on a 11.8 X/c trip. I had a columbia at home in the hanger that would have made that trip much more comfortable.
 
docmirror said:
C-152 - $14-29k
AA5 - $18-29k
PA-28 - $15-27k
Vans RV-12 - $123k

One of these things is not like the others. Can you find it? :lol:
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Yes. One is brand new, has a brand new engine that will happily burn commonly available pump mogas (ethanol and all), will cruise at 110-120 KTAS, and can be repaired and inspected by the owner with no need for an A&P/IA. And can be had for under $80K, if you don't insist on a fully loaded, factory built model.

The other three are very, very old.

None will haul four above average sized adult occupants.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Reasons not to buy:
:no:

* Planes are frequently in the shop anyway...
* I'm no mechanic, so even small things will require repairs.
* I don't have time for a constant stream of maintenance issues,
* I would want to stay in my flying club anyway (and associated costs).
* Mostly, the dream of freedom...a "carefree" joyful, trouble-free journey with my own plane is a myth.
Click to expand...

If you buy your own and work with a mechanic, it'll probably only be weather that stops your flying. I own a Tiger and stay pro-active on maintenance (A&P has key to hangar and does all of the work early in the week when needed so its available for trips). If it's yours, and ESPECIALLY if you're the only pilot, you'll see a lot of things before they occur.

I don't get anywhere near the hours you do, and last year was HORRIBLE for hours ... but, I don't fly around the patch a whole lot (once a month for practice). Most of my flights are for vacation (XC) and work blocked a bunch of that last year.

I don't try to calculate per hour operating cost(s). Hangar is $155 and insurance and annual $800 each. I bought the plane outright and figure it'll have some value at time of sale.
 
If you really, really want an airplane and can afford it, get it. If nothing else, you'll scratch the itch, and unlike getting a tattoo, buying an airplane can be reversed.

If you're not sure, then don't. There are some things, like entering a 5k running race, that you should do even if you're not sure, because they're inexpensive and low commitment. Aircraft ownership does not fall into that category. It's in the "when in doubt, don't" category, just like boat ownership.
 
DaleB said:
Yes. One is brand new, has a brand new engine that will happily burn commonly available pump mogas (ethanol and all), will cruise at 110-120 KTAS, and can be repaired and inspected by the owner with no need for an A&P/IA. And can be had for under $80K, if you don't insist on a fully loaded, factory built model.

The other three are very, very old.

None will haul four above average sized adult occupants.
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Well, the Grumman will cruise at that speed, and just for giggles, I could buy the rattiest one on the market, put a strip and paint, new int, redo the panel, and still have plenty left over for buying gas(100LL or mogas) for many, many years.

Tatty AA5 - 18k
Paint/fairings - 8k
Int - 3k
panel/misc - 5k
eng new limits - 20k
-----------------
total -54k for a like new AA5.

That leaves only 26k for gas/insp/mx, or if you really get a 'factory new' plane, as opposed to a box of bits and bolts around 60k for expenses. I can fly the Grumman for 10 years, throw it away, and buy another Grumman, fix that one and fly for another 10 years and still be under the 20 year depreciation of an RV-12.
 
If I flew 175 hours a year I would have bought mine sooner! I average 100 hours a year, the last was below due to my Brides health. We wanted something for beach travel instead of driving 2-3 hours each way its now a 45-50 trip each leg.

My annuals have been very good; I started with a very good pre-buy inspection done by a person well versed in Beechcraft. I avg. $1300 a year over the last six years for annual, the highest at 1700 the lowest 1100. Every year I try to do some type of upgrade. Door seals one year, all three knee pins when I only needed one done, light upgrades, auto pilot service and so on. Our dispatch rate has been near perfect except for one battery issue that needed a charge. I saved up money and upgraded to WAAS and added a new transponder last year. This year a new audio panel.

Nothing beats having you plane available when you want it! no hassle to stay overnight or come back a day or two later than planned due to wx or just wanting to extend the vacation.

We are glad we made the move from a club to owning, and our club was a sweet deal. I look forward to our vacations and the weekly beach runs with no stress.

Good luck if you decided to jump in the ownership waters!!
 
stratobee said:
On the new one, that hasn't happened yet. So my dispatch has been very good.
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I think you have an Aerostar now? If so, that's good to hear that your experience with it has been good. Aerostar is on my short list of planes I'll seriously look at when the time comes - the other is the DA42-VI (or whatever variant they have in a couple years from now).
 
Dive in! I recently went through the same thought exercise. I decided to go ahead and purchase rather than continue to rent. I flew 10 hours per month in 2013, which many will argue is right on the edge of making the economics work. At 175 hours per year, I would definitely dive in! Unless you buy a money pit of a plane or your rentals are dirt cheap, I'd assume the math is in your favor.

I agree with the comments about getting something like a Grumman if the plane fits your mission. My first plane was a Grumman Traveler, and can attest to the fact that (because it was maintained) it was a very economical aircraft and I had no surprises with it. That said, performance left a lot to be desired, so I would suggest you find a plane that you wont grow out of. Getting a little more than you need today prevents you from buying - selling - buying (repeat as often as necessary) which could be a money losing proposition.
 
GMascelli said:
If I flew 175 hours a year I would have bought mine sooner! I average 100 hours a year, the last was below due to my Brides health. We wanted something for beach travel instead of driving 2-3 hours each way its now a 45-50 trip each leg.

My annuals have been very good; I started with a very good pre-buy inspection done by a person well versed in Beechcraft. I avg. $1300 a year over the last six years for annual, the highest at 1700 the lowest 1100. Every year I try to do some type of upgrade. Door seals one year, all three knee pins when I only needed one done, light upgrades, auto pilot service and so on. Our dispatch rate has been near perfect except for one battery issue that needed a charge. I saved up money and upgraded to WAAS and added a new transponder last year. This year a new audio panel.

Nothing beats having you plane available when you want it! no hassle to stay overnight or come back a day or two later than planned due to wx or just wanting to extend the vacation.

We are glad we made the move from a club to owning, and our club was a sweet deal. I look forward to our vacations and the weekly beach runs with no stress.

Good luck if you decided to jump in the ownership waters!!
Click to expand...

Gary, what model do you have?
 
LoneAspen said:
I think you have an Aerostar now? If so, that's good to hear that your experience with it has been good. Aerostar is on my short list of planes I'll seriously look at when the time comes - the other is the DA42-VI (or whatever variant they have in a couple years from now).
Click to expand...

To be fair, I only flew it about 100hrs before I decided to overhaul engines (they were run outs), so this number isn't based on years of use. But in that time I had a slightly leaking O-ring, that was it.
 
For me it was life is too short to worry about the small things and to grab hold of what you can while you can that finally got me to buy my 182. I found a really nice 1977 182Q for a reasonable price that fits my budget and purpose. I have flown almost 300 hours over the past two years. It is really worth it to me to be able to jump in and go whenever I want. Yes, the cost of maintenance, fuel, insurance, hangar rental, etc. can add up. But at the end of the day it is worth it for me. I don't regret buying for one second.
 
If you want a plane, buy it! If you are flying that much, it'll be at least even after the initial fix-it maintenance; probably very reliable also.

Don't expect a plane to be an appliance, though.

Treat it as you would any other high-performance machine that gets used: Plan on minor gripes every 10 hours or so, moderate annual/periodic maintenance, and one big "uh-oh" every 6-24 months.
 
An airplane requires active and deliberate management in order to maintain a reliable dispatch rate. Do that and you will have invaluable enjoyment and utility from owning your own. We have a vacation home that our plane makes viable. Too many positives to list, but cost effectiveness isn't top of the list. If you truly can afford it, then do it. You'll love it. You can always change your mind and sell it if it isn't what you want.
 
Wow...can I just say...amazing insights all in one day. A huge thank you from the OP. The things that stick in my mind...

* It's not a logical decision
* Life is short - go for it
* Yes, maintenance is an issue, but maybe less so than on the heavily used club planes I fly
* Consider a simple plane (but I'd have to stay in the club for my Saratoga-style missions with 4 adults and luggage.

Thanks, all! Loving these posts and looking forward to more.
 
If you can answer these two questions, "can I afford it?" and "do I won't it?" As "Yes", that is all the justification you need, or can even likely come up with. Might as well buy the plane that makes you smile, just buy a good copy of it, whatever it is.
 
If you buy a plane you'll never go back to renting. Nothing like knowing who flew the plane last, how much gas is in it, etc. It isn't a financial decision but then nothing in recreational flying is. My wife even brought ownership up when she got tired of beat up rentals and not know what plane we might get. What we signed out didn't always get back in time.
 
Follow your heart. The brain just gets in the way.
 
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