Girl taken off flight for crying too much

I agree. My children have brought me riches beyond measure, but having them was our decision and our decision alone. It was a personal choice that was right for us. It isn't right for everyone.


I'm with you (and Slappy) on this one. NO one should be chastised for not having children. I'd rather see the chastising reserved for the ones that do but then don't bother to put enough time and attention into raising them.
 
I believed that kids were smelly little snot machines that made too much noise in restaurants, till I had one. I was 43 at the time. Since then I had a second one. I'm still a hero each day that I come home, especially after a two week trip overseas :) .Now they are ages 8 and 6. When the rare occasion happens that they travel by airline, (three times from ATL-SLC and back), they have a good, but quiet time. Last year I rode ATL- Frankfurt two seats overfrom a little one who was in obvious ear pain. Ouch. I wanted to scream too. But what good would it do me, the kid, or the parents of the kid to complain. The mother was on her way to see her recently wounded army husband after being sent there from Iraq. Several folks were grumbling and I would have liked to have handed them the kid and told them to do their best. I don't tolerate misbehavior from my kids , and hate to see others put up with it.
Maybe the kid in the OP was a brat. I dunno. Maybe there were a lot of things we won't know. I thank God my kids are here. I feel pain for those unlucky people who cannot have kids no matter how hard they've tried. I jump for joy when barren people finally get to adopt. I'm happy for people who don't want kids and don't have them. The person for whom my son is named was a vasectomy pioneer. He could not stand the thought of kids, though I know he and his wife would have made the best parents any kid could want. Their choice. If you have kids, love 'em. If not thank your relatives for nieces and nephews. Those kids will love you as an uncle or an aunt.
Peace can settle over the kingdom.......
 
Wow - I go away for a day of work and come back and something bad happened to the thread (I must have missed it all, because it seems ok and Chuck mentioned deleting some posts. Anyone wanna PM me to explain what I missed?).

Here's my final comment before I make even more of you despise me because I'm a know it all. I don't have kids, I will have them someday when I'm older, but for now, I don't think I'm ready to have them. More people would have done better to wait like I am so they could be ready to actually take care of their kids.

That said, I have witnessed one child raised from birth to 5 years old, 24/7 (minus a few hours here and there, but really, 24/7) when I was living at home with my sister. I have seen other's kids grow up as well, some not as frequent as I have with my niece. The only kids I've ever seen throw tantrums are those that do not fear the punishment that they will receive otherwise.

I recognize the difference between the crying of pain and the crying of a brat, and pain crying is uncontrollable, hell, adults do it. I also recognize the fact that babies cry a lot and there is no stopping it when they're prone to it (never physically punish babiesn guys, that's wrong, they can't comprehend). But for any child, over age 4 that is acting up? That is because the parent is not in control anymore.

When my dad would spank me as a child, he always made sure I knew why I was being spanked, even going so far as to make me tell him why I was getting spanked. That is a lesson I plan to implement, because I never once felt I was being punished without reason, and there was never any concern that it was just daddy beating me.

Now, the other point, for those of you that refuse to believe that you can control a child's screaming. Lets assume I'm wrong for a minute here. If your child screams, and you are in a public place where it is bothering others, TAKE YOUR CHILD AWAY FROM THE SITUATION and let them cry it out elsewhere. It is your kid, your problem, not everyone around you's (you's?? ugh). This includes theaters, hospital waiting rooms (unless it is the child that is sick), libraries, work, or anywhere else you bring your kids.

Be a responsible parent is what I'm saying. Now do y'all really disagree with that?
 
Yeah like I would have to worry about the folks at the airline........one look from Mom or Dad and it was hushville or else. Kids need a foot up the a$$ from time to time.......just to keep em' in line. You know....when they know everything and us adults are idiots, or we were never that age...we must have been dropped out at this ripe old age.......respect issues and so on.

Yes, I have one daughter, living with the ex-wife. I think in her 12 years here she got a good swat on the butt a few times (count them on one hand)....she will be 21 in July and so far she hasn't made the most wanted list....something worked.

Thank God at 49 Mary and I only have each other to discipline....ok well she has her work cut out for her :yes: but it's smooth sailing for me.;)
 
There was a 50s scifi short story called The Marching Morons, it won some awards and was in an Arbor anthology I think. Funny read read, one of those Rip van Winkle, wake up in the future stories. It dealt with this subject. Basically The smart quit having children and the dumb bred like rabbitts until there was a handfull of people responsible for running everything for everybody because the greatest part of everybody were too stupid to do anything.

I've read that one, it's good.

I do worry about de-evolution. Evolutionary success is only about the number of kids you pump out before you die. If the those who are most successful in our society have fewer kids on average than those who are less successful, then evolution backfires.
 
me: "I have some good news for you guys - guess what?"
family: "You are having a baby!"
me: "No, I'm taking a new job!"
family: "Oh, why would you call me for that? When are you going to have kids anyways?"
me: "We aren't. I'm impotent"
:rofl: That is awesome!
 
How about: "We had one. We sold him to get the down payment for the house."
 
How Selfish.

Uh..selfish? No, not in the least. The way I look at it, I gave up my quota of kids so the rest of you who want 'em could have an extra or two. :D

I've spent a LOT of time with sister's kiddos in their 13 and 17 year lives. I love them with all my heart. I'm the one that has been designated to take them should something happen to their parents. It's been that way since the day they were born. I'd do it in a heart beat, just like I'd do it with my brother's new 1 year old baby girl and I'm sure I'd love every minute of raising them. I spoil them all rotten as it is and they like it that way. Just because some of us CHOSE not to have kids does not make us selfish any more than you would be selfish for having more than one when many CAN'T have any. It's your right to decide the size of your family. You CHOSE to have several kids, and I CHOSE to let others have my share if they want 'em.

As a side note, I tried to donate eggs so that mothers who couldn't have kids could literally have my share. Medical issues prevented it from happening (fully reported on my medical by the way! lol). I get a little sad when I think about it sometimes..not because I'm sad there aren't any little Lisa's running around, but because someone else who couldn't have kids could have really used my share. How is that selfish??
 
selfish huh? What about those of us who pay 70% of their property taxes so that other people's kids can go to school at a reduced rate to the parent?

Think about it


Uhhh...
Mine are homeschooled. Except for a spanish class that 24 kids' parents pay for once a week.

And my 8 year old already tests (state required) at the 11th grade level in reading and the 7th grade level in math and science.
The 6 year old is at 3rd grade reading and 2nd grade math/science. But hey, he's a slow learner.
I hold down the only income producing job in this house so my wife can spend her time fully with our kids.
My neighbors, thank you for your contributions to the teachers who, by and large are teaching their kids how to pass a test, not necessarily how to comprehend the material.
And to keep this aviation related, I plan for my kids to learn to fly someday, though it'll be someone else doing the CFI'ing.
 
Wait until they are 14 and 16, then let me know. :D
I remember myself between 14 and 16... make that 10 and 30, which is why I refused to have kids. ;)

Seriously, I was playing hooky the day they handed out the maternal genes. Selfish, absolutely, especially with my time, but at least I admit it freely and didn't let anyone pressure me into having any. People used to tell me I would change my mind as I got older but now they have given up.
 
Last edited:
I remember myself between 14 and 16... make that 10 and 30, which is why I refused to have kids. ;)

Seriously, I was playing hooky the day they handed out the maternal genes. Selfish, absolutely, especially with my time, but at least I admit it freely and didn't let anyone pressure me into having any. People used to tell me I would change my mind as I got older but now they have given up.

I'm glad you acted that way if that was how you feel, and I don't mean that in any sarcastic or derogatory fashion. I've seen too many children raised by people who didn't want children but felt they had to have them for some reason or another, and the outcome for the children is rarely good and often catastrophic. This is really a decision we each have to make as individuals first and should be a key in our choices in partners in life. While we as adults may suffer for the consequnces of our choices, the children suffer even more without ever have being given a choice. I've always been open to children and left the choice to my partner because in reality, she would end up with the lions share of that burden such as the life of a seamans/pilots spouse is. For me, it never came to be yet. Who knows what the future may hold.
 
Opinion
Look at all the politicians ( Highly visible) these days that are being indicted for bribery, and corruption.
Most are in their 40's. Children, at the same time period when this "Don't spank" theory appears to have originated (1960's-70's)

They became this, when........last year? Two years ago? Hardly.
It's been going on since they were kids.

I wonder...... if they got spanked.

You know, I was actually thinking earlier in this thread tha public embarassment (or should I say embareassment) might be an appropriate punishment for some of our politicians. Make them stand in front of the assembly, bend over, pull their pants down or skirts up, and receive smacks with a paddle across the hiene. Just enough to sting and turn red! :yes:
 
Opinion
Look at all the politicians ( Highly visible) these days that are being indicted for bribery, and corruption.
Most are in their 40's. Children, at the same time period when this "Don't spank" theory appears to have originated (1960's-70's)

They became this, when........last year? Two years ago? Hardly.
It's been going on since they were kids.

I wonder...... if they got spanked.

:confused: You say that like it's a new development in politics. Reality check: We are at a historical LOW in governmental corruption. It'll never go away and it's always been there. It's just that we have recently started prosecuting for it rather than accepting it as the norm. Think what would have happened if JFK had been President in the 90s. The times they are a changing as to what we as a public accept as the norm. I can't see any valid link between your observation and your musing on their being spanked.
 
selfish huh? What about those of us who pay 70% of their property taxes so that other people's kids can go to school at a reduced rate to the parent?

Think about it


Think about when that kid is paying for your social security.

James Dean
 
JD - I hope you don't let those comments become a burr under your saddle. I want to personally thank you for what you do to help those who need it. Thank you! Sounds to me like you made the right choices for you, your life, and your circumstances. I saw too many breakups, splits, divorces and children with 1 parent among my shipmates while deployed overseas. That's life, they say, but it's a tough life, for sure.
A tip of the hat to you.

What I've seen, done and seen done. . . don't think I was ever fit to be a parent.

Here's a shot from my shoebox taken of me and a little Vietnamese girl back in 1969. I'm helping bandage the little girl who had been hurt bad when a VC girl threw her non bai tho cone hat in a cafe where some soldiers were eating and the place exploded. This little girl was one of a number of kids who were sitting on the sidewalk and got caught in the blast. Her face is puffy and starting to swell from the facial fractures, her wrist was badly broken, she had burns on her back. . . I'd just spiked her with a lo-do of morphine and was tending to everything. I think I'd been in-country for maybe a month or two.

4bf7hoy.jpg


That was my first real indoctrination of the ugliness I would see until I got the hell out of there in 1973. Those kids never stood a chance. And, I think that's where the first doubts arose about being a parent. It killed me having to leave some of those kids and go back to Bien Hoa or U-Tapao or wherever. 'Course, there were kids out there too, but you couldn't trust them.

A kid with a shoebox/shine kit running at you. . . Jesus, what were you supposed to do? I never had to make that snap decision, but I heard a lot of shoebox bombs go off. And all of them were carried by kids.

Fourteen years later, I met my wife at my "discharge dinner" at the O-club put on for me by the wing commander.

2z3v0as.jpg


Every opportunity to start a family except that the WTB (wife-to-be) was still with the networks, traveled often and I was going to be a federal lawman--two careers not exactly condusive to being good parents. One career or the other? Manageable. Both of them together and try to raise a family? No way.

So was that selfish? To start a family when I knew good and damn well that I was going to be fighting demons from far away for years to come? I'd heard all the stories at the VAH about vets coming back home and seriously injuring their children (or worse) when the kids jumped on the bed to wake them up. . . or snuck behind them in the yard to shout "BOO!" and stuff like that.

I didn't want to be one of those guys. How selfish, eh?

Being a federal lawman was full-time and then some. Should I have quit and got a job as a grocery clerk or something so I could therefore have kids and quit being so selfish? Being a cop or fireman is having a job no one else wants or wants to do, but that they're sure as hell glad SOMEONE is doing it as long as it's not them. But I guess some of us were just being selfish when we knew better than to start a family we knew we could not devote the time we needed to for.

Yeah, I know a lot of cops that have kids, too. But I don't know that many federal cops whose marriage either didn't take a beating or disolve altogether--and that's never good for the kids.

Then add another 20 years of seeing horrible, unspeakable things happen to kids by evil monsters that prey on the streets of our country. Knowing firsthand what goes on. . . it would be damn hard to be a father and have a child knowing the crap on two legs that lurks about. Most cops I know are quite a bit more paranoid than non-cops about their kids. . . results in too much pressure on the kids, or worse, the fear of putting too much pressure on the kids. You can't win.

Before I had kids, I thought that people who didn't have kids were odd. Who wouldn't want to have kids??

Then after having kids, I applaud those that decided not to for whatever reason.

I would much rather see someone with no kids than a poor parent with kids.

And that is exactly it. It wasn't a totally selfish decision. My wife and I knew because we married late that time was against us. We knew that we were going to be moving around the country a lot, and that's not good for kids. I knew and saw and dealt with enough military brats to know that.

To those who think such a decision falls into the "how selfish" category, best step back a few feet and rethink it. Some of us fall in the "If we can't do it right, we'd rather not do it at all" category and that is especially true in the decision over whether or not to start a family.

There is always another side as to why people choose not to start a family. No law says we have to. Some of us think it's too damned easy to go out and start spitting out babies. Especially when the baby factories can't suppor that which they produce and the rest of society has to pick up the tab.

But that's probably just selfish thinking. . .

Think about when that kid is paying for your social security.

James Dean

Some of us have no plans or no need whatsoever to wait on or rely on Social Security. What's more, more and more of the SS benefit fund gets moved over to SSI (aka: Welfare and Medicaid) to support more and more women/couples who continue to have babies yet cannot support them.

I'll assure you that my wife and I have paid FAR FAR MORE in school taxes over the last forty years than we'll EVER see out of any Social Security chump change that comes our way. And my wife has paid far more in SS than she'll ever see come back to her. In other words, when it comes to Social Security, she's paid more than enough for herself and what pittance she'll get back--plus having paid for several other folks as well.

So that dog don't hunt.

-JD
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Think about when that kid is paying for your social security.

James Dean

It goes far beyond social security. I don't plan to have kids, but I have no problem at all helping to pay for the schooling of the next generation. I don't care much about anybody paying my social security, I'll get on just fine. I do care about the continuation of our society, and having well educated kids is part of that, maybe even the most important part.

Chris
 
I don't plan to have kids, but I have no problem at all helping to pay for the schooling of the next generation. I don't care much about anybody paying my social security, I'll get on just fine. I do care about the continuation of our society, and having well educated kids is part of that, maybe even the most important part.

Chris

Can't agree more. There's just so many factors in educating the future. Never bothered me to pay school taxes, it's basically one of the thing we owe in the society we live in.
 
selfish huh? What about those of us who pay 70% of their property taxes so that other people's kids can go to school at a reduced rate to the parent?

Think about it

Pay to play? Lets welcome the caste system back (although it's coming anyway). Too poor to pay for school? Too bad sucka, yo kids ain't goin'.
 
Should this thread be in the Spin Zone?

Kinda getting that way

Pay to play? Lets welcome the caste system back (although it's coming anyway). Too poor to pay for school? Too bad sucka, yo kids ain't goin'.

Well if you are too poor to pay for health care our society is saying more and more that is tough it is not their job to pay.

Social security? Well we have been hearing about it is not the government's job to support you in old age and that you should not have to contribute to the general welfare just keep your money for yourself. So if I don't have kids why can't I keep that money for myself, I could use it to pay for further education for myself? Why is it that I have to support those that made a choice to have kids. If they want the kids then they should have to pay for the kids, right? Or is this one of those areas where all of a sudden it is ok for some people to be taxed so that others can use that money for their benefit?

So...I take it that you support the idea of user fees? ;)

Yeah, you know me, I am a big fan of ala carte government services ;)

Seriously I am ok with paying for education. I think the property tax system to do it is unfair and would rather see it more funded through state taxes. Why a family of two in a $300,000 home with no kids has to pay more for education than a family of 4 with two kids in school living in a $100,000 home is fundamentally unfair. The property tax system also ensures that funds are not evenly distributed across schools. This mean that there is an inequality in education across economic boundaries. If there really was a 'No child left behind' system those barriers would be removed so that all kids have an equal opportunity for an education. Testing alone will not ensure that people are getting the same education it just means that those who cannot perform are more likely to drop out.
 
Should this thread be in the Spin Zone?

Methinks you may be right, Peggy
After that, I'm out I set the spinzone to my no zone.

And thank you J.D. for all you did "over there" and over here. Sounds a lot to me like some pretty unselfish deeds to me. You'd have made a good Dad, if life had of taken you in that direction.
 
While this has been a very interesting discussion, should it continue down the political path (the discussion of Social Security, as opposed to a discussion of children and the raising thereof) we'll have to move it to the Spin Zone. I'd suggest that those wishing to have a discussion of children vis-a-vis politics, social security, etc. start a new thread over in Spin.

Thanks!
 
I don't plan to have kids, but I have no problem at all helping to pay for the schooling of the next generation. I don't care much about anybody paying my social security, I'll get on just fine. I do care about the continuation of our society, and having well educated kids is part of that, maybe even the most important part.
Same here.

Going back to the kids and airplanes theme. I have seen kids that can trash the back of an airplane in half an hour, but I have seen adults that can do it too. I never hear much screaming but noise doesn't travel to the front too well, even without a door...
 
Last edited:
AirTran just went up a notch on my list. Wow, and airline with cajones when it comes to unruly brat children. Wish I would have flown them more when I was flying commercial several times a month.
 
AirTran just went up a notch on my list. Wow, and airline with cajones when it comes to unruly brat children. Wish I would have flown them more when I was flying commercial several times a month.

Yep, there's a difference between a spoiled "Spock-raised" child who is unruly and allowed to do as they please versus a child who is sick or in pain or scared.

I had to take a commercial flight to Boston middle of last year and on the way back, had a child who was feeling really bad. Little boy looked to be around three or four, had a runny nose, runny eyes and was crying. Not screaming, but definitely crying.

As usual, about two rows ahead of me.

Thanks to TSA and the geniuses at DHS. . . Mom and Dad (who looked to be in their mid-20's and definitely not affluent) couldn't take all of his prescription medicines along.

I had snuck some contraband Nyquil on board due to my own oncoming flu-like symptoms and offered some to the parents. Absolutely grateful. Half a shot and twenty minutes later, Junior is zonked in his mama's arms. Passenger behind me remarks "About (blankety-blank) time. Should've left the (blankety-blank blank) kid at home."

Dad looks back at alpha hotel passenger sitting behind me and softly tells him/us/surrounding passengers, "Sorry, but his uncle was killed in Iraq three days ago--we're going to Texas for the funeral."

Alpha Hotel behind me starts to say something else and I turn around and show him the bad, burned and scarred side of my already ugly face and tell him if he says another word, I'm going to make him wish he'd never been born. Several other passengers assure Mister Alpha Hotel of the same thing.

When we landed in Dallas, the passenger across the aisle from me gives the young couple something and quietly whispers something to them, and the young woman starts crying.

It was money, as in cash, for a rental car (they were going to take the bus to Fort Hood), hotel and food. The passenger who'd given it to the kids told me while we were waiting for our baggage that he was a retired infantry Lieutenant Colonel, United States Army. I told him I was a retired Senior Master Sergeant, United States Air Force. We shook hands and exchanged the kind of look that only veterans can do and waited on our bags.

I detest screaming, unruly, tantrum-prone kids whose parents do little to nothing to control that behavior. But there is a huge difference between children that are just little s---ts and children that are scared or hurting or sick.

I also fully believe that airlines realize the difference between the two as well. Like you, I salute the airline for doing the right thing in this case.

Regards.

-JD
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm speechless.

I can tell in a New York Minute which child in outpatient surgery has parents and who does not. And I include in this children of couples where one, none or both of the adults work fulltime.

My only objection is that Airtran gave them free tickets. There is a difference between a sick kid and a kid having a tantrum. It's EASY to dope out, you DON'T have to be a genius. "ah say, ah say, pay ATTENTION, son...."

FIFTEEN MINUTES? They gave up their arrival reservation slot- or nearly so. They can't taxi until the kid is down. OFFF OF DA PLANE!
CowboyPilot said:
It was money, as in cash, for a rental car (they were going to take the bus to Fort Hood), hotel and food. The passenger who'd given it to the kids told me while we were waiting for our baggage that he was a retired infantry Lieutenant Colonel, United States Army.
I was never fond of O-5s. "Light Commanders". Really. But that one redeemed himself.
 
Last edited:
Wow...JD and Reverend...thanks for defending those of us who have decided to not have kids.

Though JD...uncle killed or not, it sounds like that, due to age and illness, the parents really should not have brought along the child; and regardless of the reason for the travel, that does not excuse the annoyance of the crying child. You certainly could have tried to kick my ass, but I still would have said what I just did above even after you looked at me. :D
 
It damned sure worked on me! Whenever my mom or dad would take a belt or switch to my rear end, I very quickly shut my yapper.

I can't recall being struck as a child. They had other ways that lasted
a lot longer. A whipping would have been quick and easy.

I had one daughter and I followed the model of my parents. It worked.
That's the only training I had in parenting and I had to get it right
because we only had one to work with. Some kids may just be wired
such that respect and reasoning don't work.

RT
 
I remember myself between 14 and 16... make that 10 and 30, which is why I refused to have kids. ;)

Seriously, I was playing hooky the day they handed out the maternal genes. Selfish, absolutely, especially with my time, but at least I admit it freely and didn't let anyone pressure me into having any. People used to tell me I would change my mind as I got older but now they have given up.

Wow .. you turned out pretty good for being such a wild child.

;-)
 
And ....

I might add a little post script. When I finally settled down and
had a kid I was 40. And though I've never grown up .. I was at
least a little more mature at that point and had the energy for
child raising.

A recent conversation with the now 19y/o:

me: "Hey, Kidlet, guess what I did"
her: "what now, dad"
me: "I bought a bigger Harley"
her: just rolls her eyes ..

;-)
 
I can't recall being struck as a child. They had other ways that lasted
a lot longer. A whipping would have been quick and easy.

I had one daughter and I followed the model of my parents. It worked.
That's the only training I had in parenting and I had to get it right
because we only had one to work with. Some kids may just be wired
such that respect and reasoning don't work.

RT

That's cool. Whatever works...works. The method used by my parents worked for me. I would be warned once. And if either of my parents told me that a spanking was next, you can bet they were true to their word. And whatever it was I did to get that spanking, I never did it again.:lightning::lightning:
 
I do. I'd grab her in a full bind hug restricting her limbs and hold my hand with a piece of cloth over her mouth as a muffler forcing her to breath through her nose. The extra tension this creates in the lungs causes a basal mental reaction which breaks the brain lock. Used it on my 3 year old nephew who would have melt downs around bed time. Worked pretty well and usually takes less than 15 seconds to take effect and another 45 to completely fade. 30 seconds later he'd be fast asleep. Yes, I was the babysitting uncle for my three sister in laws.

Probably works--but don't do that in public...Or--yeah...

I'm from the side where I was never really disciplined by either parent growing up. I could more or less get away with anything I wanted within the laws of society. I probably got lucky and turned out somewhat OK--although not all of my siblings turned out so great.

I think there is a fine line from guiding a child into this perfect mold you expect versus being there to ensure that they are kept on a relatively decent track and providing support to make sure they are capable of living a happy life. Not many parents do a good job at walking this line.

But what do I know--I'm just a 19 year old. I think I know everything when in reality I know very little. Oh well.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top