Getting yelled at by controllers

jasc15

jasc15

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Joe
Now, im sure these things never happened to any of you guys...

During my solo yesterday, I finished with some touch and goes. While on the crosswind leg of the first touch and go, i noticed another plane crossing my path on the downwind moving very fast, and he almost looked to be flying straight to the numbers. His course was hard to distinguish for some reason, and it looked like he crossed the final approach path, not even making the base turn. I spent so much time figuring out what he was doing, that i forgot i was still climbing and diverging from the downwind leg. I finally jumped on the radio to inform tower that i was on downwind, thinking it was just an extended downwind at first, and the controller asked me to ident (this is when i realized how bad i screwed up). I was at 1400 AGL, and had drifted about 2 miles from the runway centerline!! As I was realizing it myself, he said "you're 2 miles of course, and at 1500'. Get back to pattern altitude, and turn base. You need to improve your pattern work, I can't steer the plane for you". I really felt like an ass, and could only mutter "sorry about that, turning base". I even went a little too far on base, and overshot the turn to final since i was so frazzled and embarrassed. I regrouped myself on final, and had a pretty decent landing. The rest of the touch and goes went smoothly, and i was able to keep myself composed.

Moral of the story: Fly the damn plane!
 
The guy should cut you some slack if you're a student pilot. Expect to screw up from time to time. No worries, no one hurt and no bent metal.
 
It's good to learn to ignore yelling. There's almost never a good excuse for it. It accomplishes nothing.

Just make yourself the better professional and ignore it. Recently, I thought I was calling tower for takeoff when in fact I was still on ground. Ground mumbled something back at me that I couldn't understand and it sounded as if he was talking to another plane (I figured I was on tower and he was working both ground and tower). So I called again after 30 seconds. In response, he snapped and yelled that I should contact tower for takeoff. Fair enough - could have been easier had he been clear from the beginning.

Switched to tower and was in the air 20 seconds later. As a student pilot, you're going to make mistakes more often. Even later, you'll make mistakes. The important thing to learn is to not worry about it while you're flying. It was sorted out, you didn't endanger anything, and you landed successfully. That's all that matters. Next time, you'll stay on downwind. Just ignore all the non-essentials (easier said than done!).

-Felix
 
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Everyone makes those kinds of mistakes. The controller yelling is irritating, but you learn to deal with jerky controllers.

Are you using "student" in your callsigns? If not, maybe you should start
 
SkyHog said:
Everyone makes those kinds of mistakes. The controller yelling is irritating, but you learn to deal with jerky controllers.

Are you using "student" in your callsigns? If not, maybe you should start
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no, i dont use "student", but maybe i should start. I do say student while getting wx briefs, however. Where would i wedge that into the communication?

To be fair, i dont mean to say the guy was loud, but he was a bit of a jerk.
 
jasc15 said:
no, i dont use "student", but maybe i should start. I do say student while getting wx briefs, however. Where would i wedge that into the communication?

To be fair, i dont mean to say the guy was loud, but he was a bit of a jerk.
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The folks you talk to for weather are miles, probably hundreds of miles away from you. And they have no interaction with your tower. Suggestion - when you initially call ground, preface it with "student", e.g.

xxx ground, cessna 1234s, with information whatever, location, student pilot.

Then, when you've finished runup and are ready to contact tower, something like:

xxx tower, cessna 1234s, at A7 (or wherever) ready for departure, student pilot

Keep reminding them - it's your fanny up there, not their's.
 
What's "funny" is that you never hear the controller identify themselves as a student, yet I think that in some areas 25% of them are. He (or she) may be almost as green as you are. That said, their green-horns have a lot more instruction under their belt before they are let loose on the flying public than you do!
 
This is a pet peeve of mine. A controller needs to first control himself. A student pilot has enough going on in his head, the last thing he needs is the distraction of being bitched at while he's still flying the plane, something that can really get a new pilot's brain twisted into a knot. If the controller feels the need to chew you out, he should arrange to do that while you're on the ground.
-harry
 
mantakos said:
This is a pet peeve of mine. A controller needs to first control himself. A student pilot has enough going on in his head, the last thing he needs is the distraction of being bitched at while he's still flying the plane, something that can really get a new pilot's brain twisted into a knot. If the controller feels the need to chew you out, he should arrange to do that while you're on the ground.
-harry
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X2. Plus we are PIC they're not. Almost all the controllers I've used have been courteous, professional and helpful. However, there have been a few times when I wanted to remindthem who pays their salary, but I just bit my toungue and flew the plane and that is what I would recomend doing.
 
Its an extreme disservice for the controllers to get rude on the radio. Their jobs don't require them to be brown-eyes; I wasn't. Like pilots, controllers do learn (or are suppose to) to be flexible enough to always have the ability to change sequences around as needed.

ATC "students" are NEVER turned loose on the flying public. Whenever a trainee is in position, there is always an certified controller plugged in position with them that has override capability.

You may want to tell your instructor what happened and the both of ya'll call the Chief Controller to find out why you were treated like that on the radio. The Chief doesn't want his/her controllers providing bad service.
 
As noted, we have all had our incidents with controllers. I am an advocate of using the word "student" but I will also point out it is probably not necessary in the pattern at your home 'drome. Unless the controller in the tower is very new, he knows that student pilots fly out of that airport and he probably knows the N-numbers of the flight school aircraft by heart. And you were in closed traffic doing touch and goes - another activity that tends to indicate a student.

I did find that using "student pilot" when seeking flight following and approaching airports on my student solo flights was very helpful. My CFI wrote in his solo endorsement that I was required to request flight following. Listening to the controller first, I was guessing that I would be refused. He was obviously very busy and had refused four flight following requests in a row. "blah blah student pilot requesting flight following". "Nxxxx squawk yyyy..... radar contact!" It works.

You did learn a lesson. Fly the plane. Aviate, navigate, communicate. It takes a little more experience to get the right emphasis on aviate (in this case, avoiding the other plane) and navigate (staying in the pattern) but you are on the way.

-Skip
 
Many controllers forget that pilots, especially students, don't need any help feeling bad after they screw up... :D

But forget his attitude, and remember your little lesson (don't let distractions mess up your pattern). That's all that counts.
Later, you will find you still make errors sometimes, but you learn to not get flustered or distracted by them and just make the proper correction quickly and save the self-judgement for later. ;)
And look at it this way- at least you were distracted by something important- what another plane was up to in the pattern.
 
jasc15 said:
no, i dont use "student", but maybe i should start. I do say student while getting wx briefs, however. Where would i wedge that into the communication?

To be fair, i dont mean to say the guy was loud, but he was a bit of a jerk.
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"Student Skyhawk 12345, midfield left downwind, touch and go"
 
I like Rottydaddy's statement about "don't let distractions mess up your pattern". This is why CRM started. Distractions absorbing the whole crews attention. As time goes on, you'll find yourself able to multi-task much more easily while maintaining situational awareness - but still, you'll want to keep your priorities.
 
mantakos said:
This is a pet peeve of mine. A controller needs to first control himself. A student pilot has enough going on in his head, the last thing he needs is the distraction of being bitched at while he's still flying the plane, something that can really get a new pilot's brain twisted into a knot. If the controller feels the need to chew you out, he should arrange to do that while you're on the ground.
-harry
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I agree completely. When I first read through all of these post, it reminded me of the most embarrassing thing you have done, and not pulling chocks was several pilot's most embarrassing moment. Someone else said, if you have never forgotten to pull a pair of chocks after you start, you haven't been flying long enough. And everyone at one point in aviation will get yelled at.

Everyone is going to make a mistake with controllers. A few months ago, I got yelled out at one coming back into my home airport. Just brushed it off, and now, I can tell you, I won't make the same mistake again.
 
Flyparrothead said:
I agree completely. When I first read through all of these post, it reminded me of the most embarrassing thing you have done, and not pulling chocks was several pilot's most embarrassing moment. Someone else said, if you have never forgotten to pull a pair of chocks after you start, you haven't been flying long enough. And everyone at one point in aviation will get yelled at.

Everyone is going to make a mistake with controllers. A few months ago, I got yelled out at one coming back into my home airport. Just brushed it off, and now, I can tell you, I won't make the same mistake again.
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Here's a list of things that will happen. If they haven't been guilty of one or more of these you don't fly enough:

-- forget to pull chocks
-- forget to set Transponder to ALT
-- take off with full nose up trim
-- forget to close/ open cowl flaps
-- forget altitude/fix/route you just read back
-- forget to write down takeoff time
-- forget to switch tanks
-- be off by one 0 in some calculation
-- get yelled at by a controller
-- hear this phase from ATC: "Confirm squawking 1234..."
-- be unsure what taxiway you're on
-- be distracted and then foregt to do the last setp of some procedure
-- report some sound to a mechanic only to have him reply, "There's nothing wrong with that airplane..."
-- leave a towbar in the hangar
-- "forget" to visually check tanks and then wonder how much fuel you really have once airborne
-- land hard
-- nearly veer off a runway on landing
-- turn any heading but the one instructed by ATC
-- bust altitude
-- fly to the wrong fix


I'm sure there are many more. This list is in no way exhaustive. Some are dumb little mistakes -- some can be downright dangerous. Few are excusable, but they happen.
 
I don't want to come down on you too hard, but there's been enough "there, there it will be ok"s in thread. Spending two minutes of not paying attention in the airport environment can get you (and others) killed. To drift a mile off course in a trainer in the pattern takes a long time of not paying attention. I don't really see an issue with what the controller said. You are in a controlled environment and (supposed to be) in compliance with ATC instruction. You said the other plane crossed in front of you and was moving fast. Hey, it's not a factor any more, focus should go back to what you are doing. You've already said you've learned your lesson on worrying about the plane - so just put this in your bag of experience.
 
EdFred said:
I don't want to come down on you too hard, but there's been enough "there, there it will be ok"s in thread.
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I appreciate the understanding shown in this thread, but I'm certainly not taking what happened lightly. I know i screwed up, and wasn't looking for a reason to be upset with the controller. I learned my lesson, and will certainly add it to my things-not-to-do list.
 
jasc15 said:
I appreciate the understanding shown in this thread, but I'm certainly not taking what happened lightly. I know i screwed up, and wasn't looking for a reason to be upset with the controller. I learned my lesson, and will certainly add it to my things-not-to-do list.
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Do you want a real fun (scary) story, regarding things to add to your "not to do list?"

Learn from my mistakes:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4231

Many people will give you the "Its ok, you did xxx right" speech, and that's fine. The secret is to actually learn from the mistake and move on, which you are appearing to do. Good on ya!
 
jasc15 said:
I appreciate the understanding shown in this thread, but I'm certainly not taking what happened lightly. I know i screwed up, and wasn't looking for a reason to be upset with the controller. I learned my lesson, and will certainly add it to my things-not-to-do list.
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We all do it. When I was an IR student I got chewed out by the uber-***** at Muskegon Approach. (She chewed everyone out). MY CFII and I were flying up there to do some practice approaches, and the SOP in the 172 was dial in the DME off the VOR/DME and give that as the location on your initial call. I misread the DME as 118 instead of 11.8 and she gives me the riot act about not being in her airspace. So I turn on the sarcastic voice and "Ooooooh, Sooooooorrrry. 11 south."
 
OTOH, I hope a controller gets my attention (even if by yelling) if I'm going to bend metal, screw up traffic in more than a minor fashion, or go where I really don't want to go (SFRA around DC for example). Shame really helps me to internalize the lesson but it should be administered in appropriate doses.
 
The other plane crossed your path as you were approaching the downwind leg. You discovered yourself to be considerably off course and altitude, the controller was less than kind to you.

All of these things are called distractions. As your training progresses, so will the distractions. If you can not make your own distractions, your instructor will do it for you.

In everyday life we have all kinds of distractions or interruptions from what we are doing. Usually these are no big deal, we blow them off, we have a tantrum, whatever. In the cockpit, a distraction takes on a whole new meaning. I believe it is not learning to fly the airplane, but more of leaning to deal with and recover from distractions while flying the airplane.

It is much like all those years you spent trying to learn how to chew bubble gum and walk at the same time, only now it is dealing with distractions and successfully flying the airplane all at the same time.

In one of Earnest Gann's books he talks about how his instructor would hold a lit match under his nose while he was flying, doing navigation, and communicating, all at the same time, and trying real hard not to breath in through his nose.

It isn't about getting yelled at, it isn't about catching yourself or another pilot screwing up, it's about learning that you must be aware of other things going on around you, (situational awareness) and learning how to not focus on them, but rather focusing on the airplane you are flying. That is the number one thing, above all the distractions, you are the pilot "IN COMMAND", learn to be in command. Ignore what has happened, focus instead on what is coming.

John
 
gprellwitz said:
What's "funny" is that you never hear the controller identify themselves as a student, yet I think that in some areas 25% of them are.
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I was leaving Aurora when an obviously new controller was working ground - she spoke VERY clearly, slowly, corrected herself, etc. Somebody said "good job" on the radio and she asked if it was really that obvious. Travis in CA is a controller training place. Most of the controllers there are new. Do I yell at them if they mess up? No.

There isn't any excuse for yelling.
 
sba55 said:
I was leaving Aurora when an obviously new controller was working ground - she spoke VERY clearly, slowly, corrected herself, etc. Somebody said "good job" on the radio and she asked if it was really that obvious. Travis in CA is a controller training place. Most of the controllers there are new. Do I yell at them if they mess up? No.

There isn't any excuse for yelling.
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Okay, maybe I should have said never hear a controller intentionally identify themselves as a student! :) And yes, there's supposed to be another more experienced controller there monitoring them.

And I would agree that there are at least very few excuses for a controller yelling on the air, and perhaps none for yelling at someone.
 
Yelling is over the top, but as the OP clarified, he wasn't loud (and in my book at least that means no yelling). Some controllers can be toolbags though. Saginaw Approach had one - maybe still does.

I was on my way to one of the Saginaw airports in no particular hurry to get there. I was getting ready for my commercial, and was reading about oscillations and stability/instablity and was experimenting with stability of the Cherokee somewhere north of Lansing. I was below the hemi-rule altitudes so I was all over the place in heading (+/- 45°) and altitude (+/- 500') and airspeed (+/- 20 kts) but I had my eyes outside, and was listening to MBS APP on 126.45 as I got a bit closer. I then hear the controller call me out as traffic to someone who is probably 10 miles from my position but headed sort of my way, and he tacks on to the end of the transmission "that guy must be the worst pilot in the world." I snap to a 'cardinal altitude' and immediately call out position, altitude and destination as professional sounding as I could be. Loved the "...uh...um...oh crap I'm busted" tone in his voice. Held altitude to +/-20' and had zero course deviation - so much for being the "worst pilot in the world."
 
EdFred said:
Yelling is over the top, but as the OP clarified, he wasn't loud (and in my book at least that means no yelling). Some controllers can be toolbags though. Saginaw Approach had one - maybe still does.

I was on my way to one of the Saginaw airports in no particular hurry to get there. I was getting ready for my commercial, and was reading about oscillations and stability/instablity and was experimenting with stability of the Cherokee somewhere north of Lansing. I was below the hemi-rule altitudes so I was all over the place in heading (+/- 45°) and altitude (+/- 500') and airspeed (+/- 20 kts) but I had my eyes outside, and was listening to MBS APP on 126.45 as I got a bit closer. I then hear the controller call me out as traffic to someone who is probably 10 miles from my position but headed sort of my way, and he tacks on to the end of the transmission "that guy must be the worst pilot in the world." I snap to a 'cardinal altitude' and immediately call out position, altitude and destination as professional sounding as I could be. Loved the "...uh...um...oh crap I'm busted" tone in his voice. Held altitude to +/-20' and had zero course deviation - so much for being the "worst pilot in the world."
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You're so awesome.

:rolleyes2:
 
EdFred said:
Yelling is over the top, but as the OP clarified, he wasn't loud (and in my book at least that means no yelling). Some controllers can be toolbags though. Saginaw Approach had one - maybe still does.

I was on my way to one of the Saginaw airports in no particular hurry to get there. I was getting ready for my commercial, and was reading about oscillations and stability/instablity and was experimenting with stability of the Cherokee somewhere north of Lansing. I was below the hemi-rule altitudes so I was all over the place in heading (+/- 45°) and altitude (+/- 500') and airspeed (+/- 20 kts) but I had my eyes outside, and was listening to MBS APP on 126.45 as I got a bit closer. I then hear the controller call me out as traffic to someone who is probably 10 miles from my position but headed sort of my way, and he tacks on to the end of the transmission "that guy must be the worst pilot in the world." I snap to a 'cardinal altitude' and immediately call out position, altitude and destination as professional sounding as I could be. Loved the "...uh...um...oh crap I'm busted" tone in his voice. Held altitude to +/-20' and had zero course deviation - so much for being the "worst pilot in the world."
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Right. Sometimes the controller makes an assumption about your ability that just isn't right.

Hubby is just about ready to take his Commercial checkride. The last skill he is working on quite abit is a "precision" power-off landing to an exact spot on the runway. To do this, he starts quite high with the throttle all the way back, slows and slips the plane to just above the spot and then plants it, sometimes rather hard, on the spot without flaring. After observing this activity for awhile, the controller asked whether Hubby is a student pilot, to which he replied, "Today, I am." Then the controller offered some advice, to come in lower, add a little power, and flare. All of these, are habits he has grown to love and must learn to break for this particular rating.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Right. Sometimes the controller makes an assumption about your ability that just isn't right.

Hubby is just about ready to take his Commercial checkride. The last skill he is working on quite abit is a "precision" power-off landing to an exact spot on the runway. To do this, he starts quite high with the throttle all the way back, slows and slips the plane to just above the spot and then plants it, sometimes rather hard, on the spot without flaring. After observing this activity for awhile, the controller asked whether Hubby is a student pilot, to which he replied, "Today, I am." Then the controller offered some advice, to come in lower, add a little power, and flare. All of these, are habits he has grown to love and must learn to break for this particular rating.
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Hmmm...

I don't get why you'd need to "Plant it" unless there were gusty crosswinds.

Power off 180 spot landing: Stay high, bleed off altitude with slip (you're already power off, and should be full flaps), come out of the slip and hold the nose up to bleed off any excess airspeed. Aim for a spot 50' in front of your aim point. Nail the short field approach speed until about 20' above the runway. Forget airspeed and hold it off, hold it off, hold it off -- land.

The only time you should land firm is when you're in a wing-wagging rodeo in gusty conditions.
 
EdFred said:
I then hear the controller call me out as traffic to someone who is probably 10 miles from my position but headed sort of my way, and he tacks on to the end of the transmission "that guy must be the worst pilot in the world."
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Around here I often hear ATC describe traffic as "maneuvering."
 
Palmpilot said:
Around here I often hear ATC describe traffic as "maneuvering."
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Yeah, I'll hear that from MKG, AZO, GRR, and LAN. I talked to a few people that fly in the MBS area, and they said, that guy pretty much seems to hate his job.
 
dmccormack said:
Hmmm...

I don't get why you'd need to "Plant it" unless there were gusty crosswinds.

Power off 180 spot landing: Stay high, bleed off altitude with slip (you're already power off, and should be full flaps), come out of the slip and hold the nose up to bleed off any excess airspeed. Aim for a spot 50' in front of your aim point. Nail the short field approach speed until about 20' above the runway. Forget airspeed and hold it off, hold it off, hold it off -- land.

The only time you should land firm is when you're in a wing-wagging rodeo in gusty conditions.
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I think we are pretty much saying the same thing. We are accustomed to that beautiful "chirp - chirp --- chirp" you can't feel that becomes nearly a 3-point landing with no flare in this new scenario. BTW, he's (at the moment) a student.

Also, at the moment, the things he is not allowed to do for this exercise is come in lower, add a little power, and flare.
 
No Excuse for Yelling, for sure. But a neat story from the "otherside" is that my Dad was a long-time controller prior to the Great Reagan Reset (1981) and has been a pilot since the early 60's.

He had a pretty busy setup going and was trying to get several planes both down and up off the same runway (only had one "jet" runway at the time). Anyway, he pulls a 727 out as another was on the takeoff roll. since he can't clear 2 planes to take-off at the same time, he has to wait until the other plane is off the runway before he clears #2. He tells him to "taxi into position and hold, prepare for immediate departure, start spooling". Basically, this is telling him, get in position, start bringing in the power (old jets took 7-8 seconds of "spooling" to come to power) and be ready to make your takeoff run. Meanwhile, he had about 5 planes on final and needed this guy going soon.

well, when he said this, the 727 captain comes on the radio and says "Tell you what, son. I'LL fly the airplane, you fly the tower". So Dad replies, "Roger understood, take the first taxi way and taxi back to rwy XX, you're number 6 for takeoff".

So, yelling or not, sometimes keeping your thoughts to yourself can help everyone out :)

jf
 
I do have a good perspective on controllers side, since my uncle worked at the NY TRACON for quite a while.
 
Jeff F. - I bet your dad has lots of great stories. I'd like to hear more of them.
 
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