Getting hired w/ non-CFI time...

dans2992

dans2992

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Given a pilot with 1500 hours of time, and maybe 50-100 multi, would a part 91 or 135 operator prefer to hire the pilot who instructed for most of those hours, or someone without a CFI that flew themselves around the country for business/personal travel?

I'm thinking they'd prefer the CFI other things being equal, but just wondering if anyone has additional insight here.
 
I got hired at a 135 with about 400hrs all non-CFI, and I know many of our other pilots are also non-CFIs.

As for my personal opinion, I'd generally put a bit more weight into someone who's time was non-CFI. I feel they've been exposed to more real-life scenarios, instead of 1,500 hours of cookie-cutter pattern work and some jumps to airports which are 50+nm away.

Again, just my opinion, and look forward to others insight as well.
 
I would be looking for a pilot who actually flew the time rather than watching someone else fly. Did a little 135 time ,no CFI time.
 
I'd say it depends more on the specific scenario, the attitudes of the applicant, and their rapport.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
I got hired at a 135 with about 400hrs all non-CFI, and I know many of our other pilots are also non-CFIs.

As for my personal opinion, I'd generally put a bit more weight into someone who's time was non-CFI. I feel they've been exposed to more real-life scenarios, instead of 1,500 hours of cookie-cutter pattern work and some jumps to airports which are 50+nm away.
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What type of 135 work did you do with 400 hrs? Just curious.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
I got hired at a 135 with about 400hrs all non-CFI, and I know many of our other pilots are also non-CFIs.

As for my personal opinion, I'd generally put a bit more weight into someone who's time was non-CFI. I feel they've been exposed to more real-life scenarios, instead of 1,500 hours of cookie-cutter pattern work and some jumps to airports which are 50+nm away.

Again, just my opinion, and look forward to others insight as well.
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Speaking as one who is not a CFI, nor even commercial, I have to agree with the above. I have around 1000 total hours with the vast majority being "flew themselves around the country for business/personal travel".
Most of the CFI/CFII I trained under appeared to have little experience outside of the home drone, less experience extracting real world WX data from sources available, little experience flying in real WX, little experience in ice, less experience working with ATC, etc. Thus, not to bash the CFI/CFII but if I were hiring I would look for experience flying away from home on a schedule regardless of WX.
 
I know many chief pilots who prefer to hire former CFI's over non-CFI's. Contrary to popular belief, there's more to being a CFI than beating up the pattern on calm days. That being said, I think variety of experience is a good thing. Currently, I have 2 flying jobs: one as a CFI, which keeps my knowlege and many aspects of my flying skills sharp (not to mention the wonders being a CFI has done for my basic people skills, which can go a long way in this business) and the other is a single pilot part 91 corperate job, which keeps my true cross country, IFR and real-world weather decision making skills sharp, which is something I don't get a whole lot of as a CFI.
 
Most charters operations I know of prefer to hire people who got their hours actually flying, not telling someone else how to fly.
 
I didn't know anyone at the place where I currently work, but I must have convinced the CP that I was teachable. :rofl:
 
A question from a different perspective:

Would someone who was able to afford to fly themselves around the country for 1000+ hours need a job as bad...in other words...be willing to work as hard as a lower time CFI who is hungry for it?

91/135 Operators do want actual experience however...hours flying around the country dealing with ATC/IFR/FBO's...etc. Not someone who has 1000 of the same hour flying around the pattern. Not to mention that "know-it-all" attitude a lot of the CFI's seem to bring to the table...

All depends on the situation.

And yes...+1 for its all about who ya know.
 
I think another aspect to put into this is, as an potential employer, who do it call to verify you. How can I find out what type of pilot you were, did you flake out on flights, push the limits of safety, or over safe and cancelled a lot of flights which might cost me money. How can I get some sort of bearing that those hours you just flew around the country on your own weren't just whipped.

It is tough to say who would be the better applicant, I think it all depends on the individual.
 
TommyG said:
I think another aspect to put into this is, as an potential employer, who do it call to verify you. How can I find out what type of pilot you were, did you flake out on flights, push the limits of safety, or over safe and cancelled a lot of flights which might cost me money. How can I get some sort of bearing that those hours you just flew around the country on your own weren't just whipped.

It is tough to say who would be the better applicant, I think it all depends on the individual.
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You can usually tell how many hours the person has based on the way they fly. If they have 300 but claim to have 1000, you can easily spot the difference.
 
lr60plt said:
A question from a different perspective:



Would someone who was able to afford to fly themselves around the country for 1000+ hours need a job as bad...in other words...be willing to work as hard as a lower time CFI who is hungry for it?
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That's something I do worry about a bit if I were ever to apply for something like this. Due to the low wages, it would be mainly for ..... "Fun". Yeah, I realize it might/would get old. Just something I kick around from time to time.
 
There's also something to be said regarding the CRM aspect of flying with another pilot, that a dude flying solo across the US isn't going to be exposed to. I agree with others, it's more about the candidate rather than CFI versus non-CFI time.
 
I had my ATP and over 3000 hours TT before I got around to getting my CFI. I thought I had dodged a bullet, but I was wrong. In any teaching situation, it's always the teacher who learns the most. Looking at it from my perspective I think that becoming a CFI and teaching for a little while goes a very long way towards rounding you out as a pilot, but there is a limit to it. I think that after 500 to 1000 hours most guys have gotten as much out of instructing as they're ever going to get. And as some have intimated, there is a difference between 1000 hours of experience and one hour of experience repeated 1000 times. I guess that's my long way of saying that if I was looking to hire a pilot, I'd prefer someone that has had some experience teaching, but also has a significant amount of real world experience.
 
dans2992 said:
Given a pilot with 1500 hours of time, and maybe 50-100 multi, would a part 91 or 135 operator prefer to hire the pilot who instructed for most of those hours, or someone without a CFI that flew themselves around the country for business/personal travel?
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Having only 1500 hours of mostly cruising flight to develop bad habits and rusty technique doesn't compare well, to me, with 1500 hours of analyzing the bad habits served up by various students. Nothing gives a better grounding in the fundamentals than teaching them.

That said, after a non-CFI does manage to get hired, then is either mentored along as a copilot or case-hardened by a baptism of fire, the difference eventually disappears.

I come from a CFI background, though, and you will find those that hire always seem to prefer those with similar backgrounds. I've never heard a military pilot praise civilian pilots as being a superior breed of pilot or the other way around, for example. CFI vs non-CFI is a permutation of the same discrimination.

dtuuri
 
I think it depends. I had a couple thousand hours before I got my CFI. Just never really needed one. I can make an argument either way. CFI only really means no real world experience, but sometimes I think CFI develop better ways with CRM because there are in an environment where they have to learn how to deal with people. I don't know if the ones doing the hiring are thinking one or the other.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
It's not who you know, its who you . . .

Well, never mind.
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What Greg wrote.

Many part 91 jobs are never advertised. It is word of mouth. Someone asking a CFI or DEP they know about possible pilots. Even the girl behind the counter at an FBO.
There is a reason for this. Yes, hours on the whole give an idea of experience level that normally confers a level a safety. Yet I (and I'm sure many others), have seen high time pilots who were an accident waiting to happen- I was not sure how they made it as far as they did. I've also seen 250 hour "wonder pilots" who were great sticks, very mature and were nice guys/gals.
It is for this reason I tell my students to always assume at an airport that they are being sized up for a job. No, you don't have to wear a tie and jacket, but be presentable based upon your job and treat all the people around you with respect. I'm reminded of the "freight dog" who liked to wear offensive t-shirts, smelled as if he never bathed and treated people who worked at the FBO like garbage. Hitting on the young married girl behind the counter really po'ed people. He may have been a great pilot but he missed out on nice flying jobs without even knowing it due to his attitude.
On the flip side I once got a call from a Convair cargo operator I knew who needed an FO the next week for a ground school. At the very moment I had a sharp student taking his CMEL check ride. Really good kid who, at the age of 26 had already started two businesses and owned a trucking company with his brother. As he was finishing up the paperwork for his check ride he asked what was next. I told him to walk down the street when he was done with the DPE- he had an interview right then. The next Monday he started ground school and eventually became a captain on the Convair a few years later. All based upon the reputation I had with the cargo company owner and my knowledge of this student.
 
Blackhawk said:
What Greg wrote.

Many part 91 jobs are never advertised. It is word of mouth. Someone asking a CFI or DEP they know about possible pilots. Even the girl behind the counter at an FBO.
There is a reason for this. Yes, hours on the whole give an idea of experience level that normally confers a level a safety. Yet I (and I'm sure many others), have seen high time pilots who were an accident waiting to happen- I was not sure how they made it as far as they did. I've also seen 250 hour "wonder pilots" who were great sticks, very mature and were nice guys/gals.
It is for this reason I tell my students to always assume at an airport that they are being sized up for a job. No, you don't have to wear a tie and jacket, but be presentable based upon your job and treat all the people around you with respect. I'm reminded of the "freight dog" who liked to wear offensive t-shirts, smelled as if he never bathed and treated people who worked at the FBO like garbage. Hitting on the young married girl behind the counter really po'ed people. He may have been a great pilot but he missed out on nice flying jobs without even knowing it due to his attitude.
On the flip side I once got a call from a Convair cargo operator I knew who needed an FO the next week for a ground school. At the very moment I had a sharp student taking his CMEL check ride. Really good kid who, at the age of 26 had already started two businesses and owned a trucking company with his brother. As he was finishing up the paperwork for his check ride he asked what was next. I told him to walk down the street when he was done with the DPE- he had an interview right then. The next Monday he started ground school and eventually became a captain on the Convair a few years later. All based upon the reputation I had with the cargo company owner and my knowledge of this student.
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Agreed... Just out of curiosity, what company was that?
 
In the big scheme to things, it probably doesn't matter much. There are good arguments for both cases. There will always be a bias toward the interviewer's background. CFI's will tend to hire CFI's, military pilots will hire military pilots, etc. We all know that 135 cargo pilots are the best anyway :rofl:
 
You can't really make any blanket statements about hiring. If you get as far as having an interview I think it depends on how you hit it off with that interviewer. One thing that others haven't mentioned is the employees who have gone before you. If a company has had bad luck with a certain set of new hires they will be less likely to hire someone from the same background.
 
You are MUCH BETTER off working as an aircraft fueler at a big FBO, than as a CFI.

You will then meet the corporate pilots, who depend on you, so they treat you nice, and eventually give you a job. Be extra "Jonny on the spot" to these gods. Ask for career recommendations after you dump their potties and have faithfully fueled their airplanes for six months. Make sure you know EXACTLY what they need and have it INSTANTLY ready. Fuel, coffee, ice, newspapers, luggage carriers, cars, taxis, umbrellas, red carpets, marshaling skills, hotel recommendations......the list goes on.

That's how I have seen more young pilots go up through the ranks.
 
Because of my time as a CFI I was able to exponentially expand my network and opportunities to fly other people for money and to far away places. In the years I spent as a commercial multi/single pilot before my cfi days... opportunities were pretty much nil to none outside of being a DZ pilot and a couple other gigs here and there. Nothing solid, and nothing that would diversify my logbook (instrument, XC, night, etc). Just as a side note, if you don't love teaching or don't have patience to deal with someone who may not be as quick as others and you're doing your CFI as a stepping stone, just walk away.. My opinion.
 
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