Getting hired by a mainline... Very long road?

RyanB

RyanB

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So hiring requirements by lets say SWA. 2500TT or 1500 turbine total and minimum of 1000 PIC turbine. Fly at a regional and fly as captain for lets say maybe 5 years and then you may be ready for a job like this? How practical is a job like one of these nowadays? And what is the average time to get to this level? I see some of these guys at airports that look so young almost like a regional pilot:rofl:, yet they are on with a mainline how do they do it?
 
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The airline pilots I know or knew were all military except one who's father owned an airport and he flew constantly during high school, then ( embry riddle) etc. all the 7 military were multi engine trained except two one flew U2s, left service as light col. This is only a few but my best answer. ( one went to penn state, studied agronomy, wound up flying phantoms in Vietnam for the navy after listening to navy pilot in whites who came to campus to recruit.) said he had planned to be a forest ranger!
 
I think you need a 737 type rating before SWA will even look at you as well.
 
Everyone discusses minimums but what do the applicants who actually get hired have for experience?

My suspicion is that the minimums only keep your resume out of the trash, nothing more.
 
Getting an airline gig seems bout the same as getting a record deal or tenure. You have to go all in chasing it, and if you miss the brass ring your accumulated skills may not be worth much doing other things. Go for it, or be a happy hobby pilot and plan another way to collect shekels.
 
Another airline pilot I knew flew P2Vs out of Brunswick Maine, flew a lot to Thule, flew a lot of low bad weather harassing Russian subs, etc. navy pilot of course. Was hired immed. By major and told to report in two days to headquarters in Miami. Given one uniform and 392 bucks a month to start. Put in 33 years , wound up in 1011s. I don't think there's an " easy way" unless nepotism is involved. Gotta pay your dues.
 
Read 61.151 to 61.160. Flight hours, while important, are only part of the puzzle these days...the simulator hours alone (61.156) will probably cost you 10K.

Bob Gardner
 
We have a SWA pilot on here, you can probably ask him what it was like. My dad got hired by Northwest in '98 with about 12,000 total time. 5,000 of that was dual given and he had a couple thousand turbine time from commuters flying Beech 1900's and Saab 340's. He got hired in his thirties by a major airline. He tells me seniority is everything and as soon as I can get a job with the regionals to take it.
 
I would say the best way to build "valuable" time would be through a regional or a good corporate job. In all honesty the time you get during training for ratings and what not is pretty much useless to get on with the big boys except for overall total time. Hard to get turbine PIC while getting a CPL. :mad2:
 
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Odds of getting hired with the bare minimums is pretty slim
 
Look at six years to get to the majors regardless if you go Military or Regional airlines, this is dependent on having a 4 year degree. This is a mid cycle estimate and can vary by a few years depending on where in the hiring cycle you start training and get a seat with a regional if you go that route. This of course also has other factors like 'who you know' as well as random luck thrown in.
 
I know plenty of Skywest pilots sitting on 6-9 years and are still stuck at FO. yeesh. Granted Skywest from what I hear has a bit better level of job satisfaction from some of the other regional places but the other guys supposedly have quicker upgrade times.
 
CaptLabrador said:
I know plenty of Skywest pilots sitting on 6-9 years and are still stuck at FO. yeesh. Granted Skywest from what I hear has a bit better level of job satisfaction from some of the other regional places but the other guys supposedly have quicker upgrade times.
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Slow upgrade is one of the effects of job satisfaction in a limited growth market. Everybody has to weigh the advantages and disadvantages at each carrier and see what suits their ambitions best.
 
Henning said:
Slow upgrade is one of the effects of job satisfaction in a limited growth market. Everybody has to weigh the advantages and disadvantages at each carrier and see what suits their ambitions best.
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But no one has a crystal ball which will predict the future. I know quite a few people who chose an airline based on what they thought would happen but it turned out not to be the case.

In my view, one of the biggest drawbacks of airlines is that to be "successful" you need to be married to them for life. Who knows what will happen 30 years from now, and who knows how you will feel about doing the same job all that time.
 
Everskyward said:
But no one has a crystal ball which will predict the future. I know quite a few people who chose an airline based on what they thought would happen but it turned out not to be the case.

In my view, one of the biggest drawbacks of airlines is that to be "successful" you need to be married to them for life. Who knows what will happen 30 years from now, and who knows how you will feel about doing the same job all that time.
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Not arguing your points one bit, I was blinded way back, but after a dose of reality for 3 months at it, I decided against the airline path, it requires too much stability in an unstable industry to justify the expense at the early years to make it worth the gamble for me. I'd rather gamble at the blackjack table and take the money now.;)
 
right now SWA and other mainline carriers are hiring leadership for the next 30 years...pretty much mil guys and checkairman ,saftey commitee guys etc are going to the legacy carriers outside of those lucky few with a flow thru. Things will change in 2015 , it will be a huge year for hiring and will be a buyers market for a while , but it will remain competitive to get hired forever . You will need to be a captain somewhere for at least 1000 hours and try and do more than just be a line pilot...that will get you noticed quicker. Seniority/quick upgrade/stability are key factors at the lower level in becoming mainline eligible. I would say about 5 years to matriculate to that level.

Allegiant supposedly has a 3-6 month upgrade right now on the MD80 but what a miserable place to work .
 
taters said:
Allegiant supposedly has a 3-6 month upgrade right now on the MD80 but what a miserable place to work .
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Why so bad, cant be far different from other regional type airlines? Quick upgrade on a big boy like that would be nice
 
taters said:
right now SWA and other mainline carriers are hiring leadership for the next 30 years...pretty much mil guys and checkairman ,saftey commitee guys etc are going to the legacy carriers outside of those lucky few with a flow thru. Things will change in 2015 , it will be a huge year for hiring and will be a buyers market for a while , but it will remain competitive to get hired forever . You will need to be a captain somewhere for at least 1000 hours and try and do more than just be a line pilot...that will get you noticed quicker. Seniority/quick upgrade/stability are key factors at the lower level in becoming mainline eligible. I would say about 5 years to matriculate to that level.

Allegiant supposedly has a 3-6 month upgrade right now on the MD80 but what a miserable place to work .
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I have a buddy from HS that started on the line with Allegiant a couple months ago.
 
Thats interesting, i know of a guy that was captain at a united express regional flying q300's and left it for people express flying 737's. Its a small airline with a few destinations i believe. Not sure why he wouldnt have waited for a bigger airline. Must have been a good offer.
 
Ryanb said:
Not sure why he wouldnt have waited for a bigger airline. Must have been a good offer.
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Not everyone wants to fly for a huge airline or legacy. I have an old flying buddy that turned down a Delta offer in June, electing to stay with Spirit. He loves south Florida, and didn't want to commute. Can't say I blame him - commuting sucks!
 
One I knew flew for a major, 747 NYC to Paris, former navy, made very good income.this was late in his career.
 
kayoh190 said:
Not everyone wants to fly for a huge airline or legacy. I have an old flying buddy that turned down a Delta offer in June, electing to stay with Spirit. He loves south Florida, and didn't want to commute. Can't say I blame him - commuting sucks!
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True, must have been more of what he wanted
 
You know what - if you like flying you just don't think about it ! You're happy you're not in a cubicle or slaving away somewhere else. You just do it, and you keep doing it until you get where you want to be. If you convince yourself it's impossible you'll start to believe it. Either you want it or you don't. Figure it out and move accordingly.
 
Ryanb said:
Why so bad, cant be far different from other regional type airlines? Quick upgrade on a big boy like that would be nice
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plenty of threads on other forums but ya,it's bad there .
 
The newhires at our company probably run in the 4000-5000 hr PIC range. Pretty even mix of military and civilian, many coming from flying heavies for Atlas, Polar, one of the Asian carriers or military although some have all RJ time.

Doesn't hurt to have contacts also. Having someone write a recommendation for you goes a long way.
 
Ryanb said:
So hiring requirements by lets say SWA. 2500TT or 1500 turbine total and minimum of 1000 PIC turbine. Fly at a regional and fly as captain for lets say maybe 5 years and then you may be ready for a job like this? How practical is a job like one of these nowadays? And what is the average time to get to this level? I see some of these guys at airports that look so young almost like a regional pilot:rofl:, yet they are on with a mainline how do they do it?
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Your best bet for any airline is to get on with a regional, upgrade ASAP and fly your butt off. While there are no guarantees, it will be the quickest way to a major, period. Charter and corporate guys don't fly as much, although their QOL and pay might be better in some cases vs. a regional.

Those young looking guys you see flying at the major most likely did the regional deal, and hit the hiring cycle just right.

Timing (not to mention luck) plays a huge part as well, as the hiring is cyclical and if you aren't hirable when they're hiring, then you might have to wait for the next cycle. I just missed the mid '80's cycle by a year or so. By the time I had competitive time, NOBODY was hiring, so I ended up at the commuters for about 10 years. I had about 8K hours total, 5500 PIC turbine when I got hired at my current job, and had just turned 31. I'm just about to start my 20th year here.

There are very few short cuts. Unless you get really lucky, you have to pay your dues to get the hours to be competitive and there are thousands of people out there doing that every day.

FWIW, the military guys will typically get hired with less total time than a civilian guy. The main reason being that the military guy is a "known quantity" re: training standards etc. and their time is easily verified.

Some sage advice my dad gave me when I was starting out.....

The secret to quality of life as an airline pilot is to ALWAYS take the 1st class date (seniority), and NEVER commute (better QOL, even when you don't have seniority).
 
Jimmy cooper said:
What about fed ex or ups....do they pay well?
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Yep, they both pay VERY well. Until the latest Delta contract, both of these places were the highest paid in the industry. Wasn't always that way for sure. Very tough work and at one of them (can't say which one because everything that I write will be recorded and used in a hearing against me) your a definite drain on their profits and they treat you as such. Fatigue is just normal with back side of the clock flying, time zone changes, flip flop layovers etc. BUT the check is always there, always good, the retirement is some of the best, benefits are outstanding and at the one that I cannot mention, the people you fly with are great.
PLUS PLUS PLUS
You do not have to deal with flight attendants (after doing that for a few years...no thank you).

I fly, on a very heavy year a max of 450 hours hard time. Lots of time off. The flying is just different than pax. Right now, we have F/O's that will sit in the right seat over 15 years so progression is not what it used to be...BUT that F/O will make 200K without trying.

But pilots are pilots...come into our crew rooms at 3 AM and you would think that we were the most abused people on the face of the earth.

Pilots only hate two things...
1. The way things are
2. Change
 
You don't see a lot of people going corporate to downgrade to the airlines, they usually move up in the corporate ranks due to the quality of life issues. You do see some movement the other direction though.
 
Hard to call on this one. There are great corporate jobs and then there are corporate jobs. We had plenty of ex-corporate pilots come to World.


Henning said:
You don't see a lot of people going corporate to downgrade to the airlines, they usually move up in the corporate ranks due to the quality of life issues. You do see some movement the other direction though.
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Truer words have never been spoken......:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Slipkid65 said:
Some sage advice my dad gave me when I was starting out.....

The secret to quality of life as an airline pilot is to ALWAYS take the 1st class date (seniority), and NEVER commute (better QOL, even when you don't have seniority).
Click to expand...
 
Henning said:
You don't see a lot of people going corporate to downgrade to the airlines, they usually move up in the corporate ranks due to the quality of life issues. You do see some movement the other direction though.
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I fly with lots of former corporate guys at my airline. The main difference from others that came from a civilian background is that they tend to have been hired at a later age than their regional counterparts.

Conversely, I can't recall one leaving my current job for a corporate job. A few left for other majors over the years, for various reasons, but the voluntary attrition rate is very low, like less than 10 people in the last 20 years.

Like any job, corporate jobs can range from awesome to worse than the worst regional. The best ones, apparently, are the large ones that are run like, yep, you guessed it, an airline.

My experience in the corporate world was brief. I enjoyed what little flying I did, but, sitting around airports all day waiting for the passengers, living with a beeper, no set schedule, cleaning the airplane, arranging catering etc. etc. didn't suit my lazy pilot demeanor :D , nor was I building much time for the majors. It was a good "in between" job. I know guys that love it though, so whatever floats your boat.
 
Slipkid65 said:
I fly with lots of former corporate guys at my airline. The main difference from others that came from a civilian background is that they tend to have been hired at a later age than their regional counterparts.

Conversely, I can't recall one leaving my current job for a corporate job. A few left for other majors over the years, for various reasons, but the voluntary attrition rate is very low, like less than 10 people in the last 20 years.

Like any job, corporate jobs can range from awesome to worse than the worst regional. The best ones, apparently, are the large ones that are run like, yep, you guessed it, an airline.

My experience in the corporate world was brief. I enjoyed what little flying I did, but, sitting around airports all day waiting for the passengers, living with a beeper, no set schedule, cleaning the airplane, arranging catering etc. etc. didn't suit my lazy pilot demeanor :D , nor was I building much time for the majors. It was a good "in between" job. I know guys that love it though, so whatever floats your boat.
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I guess you get the guys that wash out of the Corporate sector into the airlines, failure to advance and not much personality, and those who get tired of the '2 hour call' lifestyle. Some departments, mostly Pt. 91, have much better quality of life conditions than others, most being Pt. 135. That's not to say there aren't demanding 91 jobs though, the same guys that own the yachts I run, often have jets as well. They can be taxing with their schedule demands to say the least. I know there are owners I wouldn't work for.
 
Henning said:
I guess you get the guys that wash out of the Corporate sector into the airlines, failure to advance and not much personality, and those who get tired of the '2 hour call' lifestyle.
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I'm sure that's it..... :rofl:

The pay and QOL is so bad at the majors that all of them have several thousand active apps on file, pretty much all the time. I'm betting that a lot of those apps are from corporate non hackers, so sick of the 2 hour callout lifestyle out there, that they're willing to take the lifestyle "downgrade" to come to a major. :eek:


Some departments, mostly Pt. 91, have much better quality of life conditions than others, most being Pt. 135. That's not to say there aren't demanding 91 jobs though, the same guys that own the yachts I run, often have jets as well. They can be taxing with their schedule demands to say the least. I know there are owners I wouldn't work for.
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Precisely. As I said, there are good and bad jobs in both worlds. If you get a good job in either world, consider yourself lucky, because luck is a huge part of the equation. This job is not for everyone, but neither is the corporate stuff.

I figured that corporate wasn't for me even before I started flying commercially, when I worked as a line guy at HTO. Every single day, folks would come in in beautiful corporate jets, the "beautiful people" would leave in their limo, and the pilots would end up sitting around our terminal all day. If they were lucky, they'd get to borrow one of our cars to go get something more substantial to eat than the gumball machine provided. We'd let the regulars hang out at our house if they were gonna be there for more than a few hours.

FWIW, as a guy who does not nor has ever worked for one, you seem to have strong opinions about major airline life. :dunno:
 
Slipkid65 said:
I'm sure that's it..... :rofl:

The pay and QOL is so bad at the majors that all of them have several thousand active apps on file, pretty much all the time. I'm betting that a lot of those apps are from corporate non hackers, so sick of the 2 hour callout lifestyle out there, that they're willing to take the lifestyle "downgrade" to come to a major. :eek:




Precisely. As I said, there are good and bad jobs in both worlds. If you get a good job in either world, consider yourself lucky, because luck is a huge part of the equation. This job is not for everyone, but neither is the corporate stuff.

I figured that corporate wasn't for me even before I started flying commercially, when I worked as a line guy at HTO. Every single day, folks would come in in beautiful corporate jets, the "beautiful people" would leave in their limo, and the pilots would end up sitting around our terminal all day. If they were lucky, they'd get to borrow one of our cars to go get something more substantial to eat than the gumball machine provided. We'd let the regulars hang out at our house if they were gonna be there for more than a few hours.

FWIW, as a guy who does not nor has ever worked for one, you seem to have strong opinions about major airline life. :dunno:
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The interesting thing in my business is it attracts a lot of people who are also pilots. I didn't pursue airlines (I had set out to) because 2 factors, the cost of getting to the majors was high, I was stepping down from high five and low six figures and was looking at a minimum of a decade to get back to that. I coupled that with the old time airline pilots glad to retire as well as less senior ones with 15 years that got furloughed (or the job vanished with the airline, a good one like TWA, a 1/3rd of my indoc class at Express One to fly Jetstreams came from TWA including a couple guys in L-1011s) from good paying jobs and are attending indoc with me going for an $18,000 a year job. The daily life QoL once you make it to a major and have a route is fine, the long term security and increase in risk with increase in commitment is a stressor. Your future is not assured with seniority in the airline industry because no matter how high you fall from, your next job will be at the bottom unless you shift laterally to a foreign contract carrier and live in Asia or the Mid East.
 
I flew corporate for a number of years before leaving for a national airline. It was a good job, I was happy for the experience, and it wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world if I spent my career doing it. A lot of guys like having direct control over pretty much every facet of the passengers' experience, so there's a sense of pride that occurs in a way that doesn't really happen at an airline, where you're merely a cog in a much, much bigger machine. Other guys hate it for exactly that reason. Different strokes. :)

There are definitely corporate jobs where the pilots are staying put. Big flight departments with multiple crews per airframe, guys getting scheduled time off, and so on. But for every one one of those jobs, there are a thousand jobs that are mediocre to downright terrible, and I think a lot of guys get tired of swimming around in that part of the industry while waiting for their dream Part 91 gig.
 
Yep, there is more 'Service' involved in the corporate sector, in the private jet sector it gets into 'Silver Service' levels. It's a much more involved relationship than flying self loading cargo.
 
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