Getting frustrated with IFR training

snoboy

snoboy

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snoboy
The other day during my lesson we were prepping for a checkride. I was flying using single axis KAP 140. We were flying into KTIW (Tacoma). I did a direct entry to the hold at SCENN (the IAF) for te ILS 17. I immediately realized the KLN 94 GPS was sequencing on to the runway but I went into brain fart and instructor had to tell me I had forgotten to press the OBS button to stop GPS sequencing, oops. I pressed OBS and commenced my R/H turn immediately. I did 2 more laps in the hold superbly toggling from HDG on the outbound leg to APR on the inbound. Well then about halfway towards SCENN on the inbound leg my instructor slaps the covers on and disengages the A/P for simulated partial panel. I choked big time I completely failed to maintain my scan, more brain fart and I end up going the wrong way. My instructor uncovered the panel took the controls and got us back on course. I did pretty well from then on, we shot a Localizer only followed by a GPS and then did a GPS back in to Renton.
I've been training IFR for a year and a half. I'm close to being ready but I keep failing 2-3 items each flight which just frustrate the heck out of me. It's just killing my confidence. I only fly once a week and wonder if twice a week would possibly kick me into high gear. Any advice I can get would be appreciated. I'm not a kid anymore, I'm 54 years old, started flying in 2008, got PPL in 2009. I don't have near the self confidence of my younger years.
 
You just need more practice to get more comfortable. Maybe you drop back ten and punt -- do more work without the simulated failures until you're more comfortable with the basics. Then do some simulated failures with prior warning so you're not as jumbled when it happens. It will come together eventually, but it takes older dogs more time to learn new tricks.
 
Buy yourself a flight simulator and fly more at home.
 
Ron Levy said:
You just need more practice to get more comfortable. Maybe you drop back ten and punt -- do more work without the simulated failures until you're more comfortable with the basics. Then do some simulated failures with prior warning so you're not as jumbled when it happens. It will come together eventually, but it takes older dogs more time to learn new tricks.
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Roger that. We agreed I need to go back to hand flying and practice maintaining a good focused scan as mine can get lazy. I have the KAP 140 autopilot pretty much under control. I still get confused on "Selecting Vectors" and "Activating Vectors" on the KLN94 and still lack a little confidence on when to engage the OBS (suspend) and when to release it.
 
snoboy said:
Roger that. We agreed I need to go back to hand flying and practice maintaining a good focused scan as mine can get lazy. I have the KAP 140 autopilot pretty much under control. I still get confused on "Selecting Vectors" and "Activating Vectors" on the KLN94 and still lack a little confidence on when to engage the OBS (suspend) and when to release it.
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Easy fix for that -- trade up to a Garmin 430.:D Seriously, I have to review the 94 book on that one every time I get in a plane with one to train someone for their IR, and I had one for three years in my last plane.
 
Practice, practice, practice. We all make mistakes(well most of us) and IF flying requires complete concentration and attention to details. We have all been there and will be there. Do not get fustrated. One thing for me that helped at least I think, was I did almost all of my IF training both approaches, and enroute by hand flying. I am also an older student, and found that hand flying and not using the AP made me more aware of what was going on.

Learn from your mistakes, and do not be too hard on your self.

For what it is worth, I did not find using a home simulator helpful, I was too concerned it would hardwire bad habits. Also I found it quite boring compared to the real McCoy.
 
Keep practicing and try not to get down on yourself. I think you need to get away from using the A/P and GPS and get back to the basics, but I really don't know from one post. Keep doing what you are doing and if you need to fly more than do so and see if it helps.
 
Ron Levy said:
Easy fix for that -- trade up to a Garmin 430.:D Seriously, I have to review the 94 book on that one every time I get in a plane with one to train someone for their IR, and I had one for three years in my last plane.
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We only have KLN 94s in our 172s. The 182RG I fly VFR in has a GNS 480 that I really like but don't know how it is for IFR. I'll keep on practicing and keep my chin up knowing I've got the moral support from my fellow IFR pilots. Thanks for the boosts of confidence.

Mike
 
snoboy said:
We only have KLN 94s in our 172s. The 182RG I fly VFR in has a GNS 480 that I really like but don't know how it is for IFR. I'll keep on practicing and keep my chin up knowing I've got the moral support from my fellow IFR pilots. Thanks for the boosts of confidence.

Mike
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I have a 480 in my Cardinal and really like it, it is an incredibly capable IFR GPS, and as you probably know was designed from the get-go with WAAS. Its database includes both approach and airport data and you can even enter Victor airways into a flight plan. That said, it also has a few quirks and I found a steep learning curve, in part because my CFII wasn't willing to put in the time to learn it himself and there aren't any 480 experts in my local area. If your instructor knows the unit well then switching to it might be an option, but if you're really at the point of prepping for the checkride then it might make more sense to do the transition work after you have the rating.

It sounds as if you're just hitting a plateau. I think that's normal in any kind of flight training and can happen at any time. We just reach a point where too many of the skills we're in the process of acquiring are not quite automatic enough yet to free up brain cycles for anything new. Also, I don't know how well you mesh with your instructor but it sounds as if there is a disconnect. I know that I made FAR more mistakes with my first CFII, even during my last summer of training, as compared with after taking a couple of months off from hood training to retake my (expired) written and find a new instructor. I was a lot better focused and on top of things procedurally from my first flight with the CFII who eventually signed me off. Sometimes I can just feel psyched out by the way an instructor throws stuff at me. With a fresh start and a new instructor, I was able to put things together and convince myself (and him) that I really knew what I was doing.

I don't know how much of this applies to you, it's just a thought.
 
jnmeade said:
Buy yourself a flight simulator and fly more at home.
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This is what I did.

I'd set the weather to near minimums. Then I'd set the vacuum pump to fail at some random time in my flight. After the failure, I had to fly the approach, go missed, fly the hold, then an entire full procedure approach partial panel.

I can't tell you how many times I screwed it up. I drew squiggly lines across the sky... but I got pretty decent at it after hours and hours of trying.
 
I can sympathize with the brain cramps. I got my IFR rating at 55 years old and unfortunately took longer than I am sure I would have had I done it younger. I would encourage you to keep at it. I really enjoy having the rating, I don't use it for night flying to minimums in the mountains but here in Florida there are times when it comes in handy.
 
Instrument training is difficult, its a different kind of flying and there are so many tiny things that you have to absorb. The week before my check ride I thought about giving up, just flying VFR only. But I realized that isn't what I wanted at all. It's hard to get the airplane slowed, turned, descending, intercepting and hitting waypoints. Do all with one radio and any instrument students head could explode. My CFi would take me out and we'd do a lesson full panel. The next day or lesson we'd do the same one partial panel. Now, the only one radio thing I have An issuemwithnis holds at a vor intersection.. Lets just hope it never happens in real life (as I'm getting ready to head out the door for an ifr flight....) or my racetracks may be more square lol.

Try not to get too frustrated. It's very technical flying and I assure you everyone struggles with it. Nothing is more rewarding that that first solo ifr flight. It was more rewarding than my first passenger flight after my ppl. Keep it up, you'll do great.
 
I almost blew my check ride because of a sequencing issue (pilot error) with the KLN 94 and saved it last minute. As has been said, it's tough and very challenging mentally, especially for us in the over 40 crowd. It's amazing how all those instruments fail on every flight during instrument training, then one day it clicks and you just keep your scan going and keep flying the plane. Stick to it.
 
flyingokie said:
I almost blew my check ride because of a sequencing issue (pilot error) with the KLN 94 and saved it last minute. As has been said, it's tough and very challenging mentally, especially for us in the over 40 crowd. It's amazing how all those instruments fail on every flight during instrument training, then one day it clicks and you just keep your scan going and keep flying the plane. Stick to it.
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Roger that, thanks for the boost. Do any of you have a time limit your focus can last? My last two lessons have each provided 1.5 hr. of bumpy as hell hard, snowy, rainy IMC and it drains me big time. I know I'm getting close and I'm going to keep pressing on. I really want to be IFR rated before I take on my first Angel Flight mission.
 
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"I really want to be IFR rated before I take on my first Angel Flight mission."

Is it not true that you need to be IR, have an Instrument capable aircraft and have a minimum number of hours to qualify for Angel Flight missions?
 
snoboy said:
Roger that, thanks for the boost. Do any of you have a time limit your focus can last? My last two lessons have each provided 1.5 hr. of bumpy as hell hard, snowy, rainy IMC and it drains me big time. I know I'm getting close and I'm going to keep pressing on. I really want to be IFR rated before I take on my first Angel Flight mission.
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Unless it was a cross-country, I tried to keep my instrument students up for just over an hour. IMHO ninety minutes is pushing it for concentrated training.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
Unless it was a cross-country, I tried to keep my instrument students up for just over an hour. IMHO ninety minutes is pushing it for concentrated training.

Bob Gardner
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It is. I did a couple lessons of 2.x on the hobbs (non-cross country) and I was completely fried. It would be something like 5 or 6 approaches in that time frame. Some circling, some going missed, some touch & go. It's a ton of workload in a tiny time.
 
DutchessFlier said:
"I really want to be IFR rated before I take on my first Angel Flight mission."

Is it not true that you need to be IR, have an Instrument capable aircraft and have a minimum number of hours to qualify for Angel Flight missions?
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No. PPL with 250 hrs total with 75 hrs. cross country PIC time are the minimums. For me doing a mission here in Washington in Feb. requires more than a VFR rating to safely accomplish a mission in a timely manor. Just a personal safety goal.
 
bobmrg said:
Unless it was a cross-country, I tried to keep my instrument students up for just over an hour. IMHO ninety minutes is pushing it for concentrated training.

Bob Gardner
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If there's time, two 45-60minute lessons with a break and debrief would make a lot more sense than a 2-2.5hr single non-XC IR training flight for most folks. A student who get's frustrated and/or flustered easily probably won't learn anything useful after the first hour or so and anyone working as hard as they should be practicing maneuvers or approaches has got to be brain fried much beyond one hour on the gauges.
 
snoboy said:
No. PPL with 250 hrs total with 75 hrs. cross country PIC time are the minimums. For me doing a mission here in Washington in Feb. requires more than a VFR rating to safely accomplish a mission in a timely manor. Just a personal safety goal.
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[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Requirements to Fly as a Pilot in Command for[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Angel Flight Northeast (AFNE)[/FONT]
​
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold](Revised May 2010)[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT]1) For the operation of any single engine piston aircraft, the pilot shall have a minimum total time of 500 hours, with not less than 400 hours as pilot in command​


3) Each and every pilot shall have a currently valid medical certificate, a current BFR, and an instrument rating applicable to the aircraft to be flown by said pilot, and shall be current with applicable flight times and rules as set forth in the FARs.​

Funny, I fly for AFE, AFNE and PALS and all have basically the same requirements as above. Noway you're a PIC without an Instrument Rating for these organizations, AF Central and AF South. I did see that AFW does not require an IR, and that's pretty surprising to me however YMMV​
 
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When I was getting kicked around during my instrument training, one thing that really helped was to slow the airplane to 90kts. Not only do you have more time to think between segments, but the airplane responds to turbulence a lot nicer and it’s easier to get back on track when the air pushes you around.
 
DutchessFlier said:
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Requirements to Fly as a Pilot in Command for[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Angel Flight Northeast (AFNE)[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold](Revised May 2010)[/FONT][/FONT]
1) For the operation of any single engine piston aircraft, the pilot shall have a minimum total time of 500 hours, with not less than 400 hours as pilot in command​


3) Each and every pilot shall have a currently valid medical certificate, a current BFR, and an instrument rating applicable to the aircraft to be flown by said pilot, and shall be current with applicable flight times and rules as set forth in the FARs.​

Funny, I fly for AFE, AFNE and PALS and all have basically the same requirements as above. Noway you're a PIC without an Instrument rating.​
Click to expand...

And for some stupid reason no experimentals. :rolleyes:

 
I hit a big plateau during instrument training when business started taking too much time and effort.

After a bit I realized that it is difficult to shift gears mentally- Busy, busy, busy, gotta run to the airport quick because I've got an appointment with the instructor, fly for an hour, gotta get back to work.

Time to back off, and wait until I can push work aside for a bit, and emphasize learning IFR with the whole brain.

By the way- I love the 480!
 
DutchessFlier said:
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Requirements to Fly as a Pilot in Command for[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Angel Flight Northeast (AFNE)[/FONT]
​
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold](Revised May 2010)[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT]1) For the operation of any single engine piston aircraft, the pilot shall have a minimum total time of 500 hours, with not less than 400 hours as pilot in command​


3) Each and every pilot shall have a currently valid medical certificate, a current BFR, and an instrument rating applicable to the aircraft to be flown by said pilot, and shall be current with applicable flight times and rules as set forth in the FARs.​

Funny, I fly for AFE, AFNE and PALS and all have basically the same requirements as above. Noway you're a PIC without an Instrument Rating for these organizations, AF Central and AF South. I did see that AFW does not require an IR, and that's pretty surprising to me however YMMV​
Click to expand...

500 hours?! I feel like that number keeps getting further and further out of reach.
 
DutchessFlier said:
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Requirements to Fly as a Pilot in Command for[/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Angel Flight Northeast (AFNE)[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold](Revised May 2010)[/FONT][/FONT]
1) For the operation of any single engine piston aircraft, the pilot shall have a minimum total time of 500 hours, with not less than 400 hours as pilot in command​


3) Each and every pilot shall have a currently valid medical certificate, a current BFR, and an instrument rating applicable to the aircraft to be flown by said pilot, and shall be current with applicable flight times and rules as set forth in the FARs.​

Funny, I fly for AFE, AFNE and PALS and all have basically the same requirements as above. Noway you're a PIC without an Instrument Rating for these organizations, AF Central and AF South. I did see that AFW does not require an IR, and that's pretty surprising to me however YMMV​
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I agree with you. AFW's standards are what they are but my personal standard is that I be IFR rated I'm comfortable enough with my 325 hrs total and 100 plus X/C PIC to get a patient safely from point A to B but I wont do it with out an IR.
 
snoboy said:
I agree with you. AFW's standards are what they are but my personal standard is that I be IFR rated I'm comfortable enough with my 325 hrs total and 100 plus X/C PIC to get a patient safely from point A to B but I wont do it with out an IR.
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Angel Flight West actually has slightly lower requirements. For a private pilot you need 250hrs PIC time and 75hrs PIC XC. If you're a commercial pilot all you need is the 75 hours of PIC XC. Easy. I will have my CPL before 250 PIC (about 200PIC I guess) and I plan on starting doing the flights then.
 
to the OP, if you're still a little frustrated with IR training. Go take a VFR flight and remind yourself how much fun it is to be flying. That's what I did. I had a hideous start to my training yesterday and when we got to the destination airport (Doing a short XC with approaches) I didn't put the foggles back on after takeoff and said "I want to remind myself why I'm doing this whole flying thing" My CFII just laughed and said "Fine" when it came to the logbook I could only put 1/2 the hobbs time as simulated instrument but I can't wait to go try it again on Tuesday, weather permitting.
 
Geico266 said:
And for some stupid reason no experimentals. :rolleyes:
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Think of Grandma, never been on an airplane before, much less "one O' dem leetle bitty playnes". She already thinks she going to meet her maker and she boards and sees in Big bold letters:
EXPERIMENTAL:hairraise:
 
Jaybird180 said:
Think of Grandma, never been on an airplane before, much less "one O' dem leetle bitty playnes". She already thinks she going to meet her maker and she boards and sees in Big bold letters:
EXPERIMENTAL:hairraise:
Click to expand...

I believe the :hairraise: emoticon was created specifically for the post above.
 
When you get a set back, just focus on S&L flight, stay in the hold (safe box), get yourself oriented and then put it behind you. You adapted well to the issue with the KLN-94 and that shows you know the unit and how to work around a problem. My question is whether your plane has vacuum or lectric gyros. If they are vacuum, your instructor should have left the KAP140 on. The best way to get the IFR down quickly is to do the prgram for several hours a day on successive days and progressively build the skills to second-nature status. The every time you get a chance to train model takes alot more time (and money) to achieve the proficiency you need to fly IFR.
 
Do not let it get to you and mess up your confidence! Keep in mind that you are getting hit with so much stuff during instrument training. It could take years and years of real world instrument flying to experience everything that you get hit with in a short amount of time.
I actually do not like the way we train instrument flying. Rush through an ils, a hold or two then into the rnav, a vor to circle, cram in some maneuvers, and if your brain hasn't turned to mush yet we'll find some emergency procedures or something else to throw at you.

Just remember this. Instrument flying is just flying! You learned how to do that during your ppl training days. It's safe to assume enroute is not a problem. It's just a hdg and altitude, yes. So the bid deal is the arrivals? But what are the arrivals, it's still just flying the airplane. You fly a hdg, and altitude, except we throw in some descending, maybe some airspeed changes.

Maybe I'm over simplifying it a little, but the flying part is still just flying. I see with most people the problems starts when you start adding a lot of other little task. Stop watches, reading plates, trying to remember the "t's".

First things first, fly the airplane! Second, Instrument training is really cool when you let yourself enjoy it. It really is pretty amazing to know you can take that airplane, and from takeoff to as little as 200 ft' above the ground before landing you cannot see anything outside. And YOU did that, it is cool.
Also, a perfect flight never happens. Why do you think the airlines use two people? I can tell you mistakes happen A LOT! So don't let you confidence get shaken, just jump back in there, and keep on practicing. Have fun.
 
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Other that having WAAS, I would disagree. I've trained IFR pilots for several years using both units, a KLN94 in my Cherokee and a 430W in my Warrior and I actually find that the 94 unit is more intuitive to use. The quick reference for the 94 is only a few pages compared to the 430's QR book and the unit has the same basic functions of the 400-series garmin units, but has a slightly smaller screen.

If you have two good radios and don't need WAAS capability, I'd stick with the 94 for awhile and just get really used to it's nuances. It you do decide to go-garmin, You can re-sell your Nav/Com 1, KLN-94, and the shared indicator (usually a KI-209A) and the annunciator as a package for a good deal, maybe even enough to get a lightly used 430W and then just have to pay for the garmin indicator and installation.
 
DutchessFlier said:
"I really want to be IFR rated before I take on my first Angel Flight mission."

Is it not true that you need to be IR, have an Instrument capable aircraft and have a minimum number of hours to qualify for Angel Flight missions?
Click to expand...

Depends entirely on which AngelFlight. For example, AFWest doesn't require IR. As a rule out here, if it's IR, it aint wise to fly in our little spam cans.
 
At the risk of duplicating others' suggestions:

For both my private and IR, I took out a short term (6 month) loan, and used the money to pay for three lessons a week, for two weeks, before the checkride. I knew that the retention and sharpness from frequent practice would prove, in the end, more economical than the once-per-week lesson schedule I had been following.

It worked, both times.

snoboy said:
The other day during my lesson we were prepping for a checkride. I was flying using single axis KAP 140. We were flying into KTIW (Tacoma). I did a direct entry to the hold at SCENN (the IAF) for te ILS 17. I immediately realized the KLN 94 GPS was sequencing on to the runway but I went into brain fart and instructor had to tell me I had forgotten to press the OBS button to stop GPS sequencing, oops. I pressed OBS and commenced my R/H turn immediately. I did 2 more laps in the hold superbly toggling from HDG on the outbound leg to APR on the inbound. Well then about halfway towards SCENN on the inbound leg my instructor slaps the covers on and disengages the A/P for simulated partial panel. I choked big time I completely failed to maintain my scan, more brain fart and I end up going the wrong way. My instructor uncovered the panel took the controls and got us back on course. I did pretty well from then on, we shot a Localizer only followed by a GPS and then did a GPS back in to Renton.
I've been training IFR for a year and a half. I'm close to being ready but I keep failing 2-3 items each flight which just frustrate the heck out of me. It's just killing my confidence. I only fly once a week and wonder if twice a week would possibly kick me into high gear. Any advice I can get would be appreciated. I'm not a kid anymore, I'm 54 years old, started flying in 2008, got PPL in 2009. I don't have near the self confidence of my younger years.
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