Getting frustrated trying to find access to an airplane in San Antonio

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softtower

Filing Flight Plan
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San Antonio, TX
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Softtower
Hey all,

I am a student pilot, loving this board. As a long time lurker, but - after months of googling for answers to my growing list of questions - this is my first posting, hoping to hear some encouraging bits of info.

Here's my situation: I've been dreaming about being able to fly an airplane all my life. I've started my training to get a PPL about a month ago. After the knowledge test, a bit of flying and ground school (while keeping a day job) I am going to a flying school full time, 8am to 6pm every day, hoping to get my private license in about 5 weeks.

As I've started implementing the plan, I've been looking for solutions to my "next generation" problem, namely: where do I get access to an airplane to fly?

I live in San Antonio. I found exactly two groups that could be remotely called "flying clubs". Both can be best described as "six guys and a single 1972 Cessna". Not to offend them, and this isn't something everybody agrees to, but my belief is to avoid old hardware. I can get into this in depth, but it's not the central point to answering my situation: I do not want to fly that.

As far as I can tell, there are no opportunities to rent planes around here (San Antonio). My flying school uses excellent, brand new C172s but they don't rent them out.

What other options are out there for me?

Here's my mission/personal profile:

I can afford to spend up to $500K on a plane but I'd prefer someone more knowledgeable about maintenance to own it. I'd be happy to pay $20-30k per year to just having access and flying, not having to worry about maintenance or headaches of selling. An engineer in me also believes that the planes are made to fly, not to sit: therefore my own hours won't be enough workload to keep it in good shape, I can see maybe 80 hours a year.

And even if outright ownership is the only way out, I've been told that it takes *forever* to get rid of a plane, so dumping half a million dollars into something completely illiquid does not seem right.

This looks *ideal* to me:
http://www.planesmart.com

But these guys aren't available in San Antonio and their beginner-friendly GA fleet is just Cirrus.

I've been looking at doing a partnership with someone who's sharing my passion for aviation, and while I did find a couple of guys that fit this profile, they looked at me... funny when I started talking about co-owning a plane: it's just like marriage for most, it seems, and you can only do with with someone you know very well. No such luck in my case.

If I don’t resolve this problem I am not sure I want to proceed with the training. The pilot's license will be of no use.

My ideal use case would be to pay a monthly "membership" fee and have access to two types of aircraft:

- Something like C172 to continue my post-training VFR hour building. Slow, safe and new.
- Something like C182 or maybe a Cirrus for instrument training and occasional trips up the coast all the way to DC with one passenger and a bit of baggage.

Anything else I'm overlooking? What are the "hacks" to flying I haven't heard of?

Thanks!
 
Get your ticket, then go buy what you want. It'll be less of a pain in the ass than dealing with 5 partners. At $500K you can get something nice, nice planes sell.
 
Go out to Boerne (5C1) and rent there. Good planes, good prices, awesome people. They've got some good 172s out there. Good luck finding a Cirrus for rent anywhere near San Antonio.
 
Just read your thing about old airplanes, lube up of you want to fly new stuff, and stop being such a wussy.
 
bartmc said:
Get your ticket, then go buy what you want. It'll be less of a pain in the ass than dealing with 5 partners. At $500K you can get something nice, nice planes sell.
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This ^

You are putting up too many arbitrary barriers for anyone to give you any useful advice. This isn't a perfect world and you will likely need to fold on one of your objections if you want to fly. With your budget, there are lots of nice gently used modern airplanes on the market. Find a maintenance shop you trust and they will keep you informed on what maintenance needs to be done, but also educate yourself on your make and model and be your own advocate. This is way better then trusting an FBO to keep a well maintained plane on the line. You will always be the last person who used the plane and you will be aware of any changes to how the plane is flying. As far as selling the plane, a well maintained plane that is priced right will sell. The stuff that has been sitting on the ramp for the last 5 years... well it will sit for a while longer.
 
With that budget, you can be a sole owner of a nice AC.

If you aren't comfortable you know enough about maintenance, sign up with Mike Busch - www.savvymx.com.

If you want more hours annually put on the aircraft, I'm sure you'll find plenty of takers willing to help with that. Maybe buy the plane yourself and look to find one additional partner.
 
Also, there is absolutely nothing wrong with older aircraft. Believe it or not, newer aircraft does not necessarily equal less maintenance issues. It's not like a car.
 
You can buy your own brand new 172 for probably half your $500k and have money left over for training, maintenance, hangar, whatever. There is NOTHING like owning your own and you can learn the maintenance over time, with a mechanic you trust.

Or your budget would easily cover a late-model 182.

I don't agree with your dismissal of older aircraft, but you are entitled to your opinion - it's your money.
 
What do you want to do with the plane? For $500k, you have many options. I'd be looking a light turbine myself.
 
Take the $500K, put $100-150 into a well-equipped Mooney or Bonanza, then invest the rest. The return on that will cover the majority of your flying expense, including an expert mechanic to maintain it to like-new standards and even fly it on the weeks you can't to keep it healthy. And when you want out of it, the money saved will cover a discounted selling price that will get you a quick sale....especially with the TLC your maintenance guy was able to lavish on it.

Now, go get your ticket....or, better yet, buy the dream machine now and learn in it. That'll save you money on your training and your insurance in the long run.
 
I'd suggest you just go up to Arlington and talk to Van Bortle. They are a Cessna dealer and have a big selection of both new and used Cessnas. Their used inventory consists of almost entirely of late model well equipped airplanes, many of which will fit in your budget.

As others mentioned, Mike Busch (http://www.savvyaviator.com/ ) can arrange your pre-buy and do a lot of the management of your airplane.

I can't see you going far wrong by getting a nice Cessna 182, you'll keep that longer than C172. It's more airplane than C172, but it's not some kind of monster.

Whatever you get, buy a nice airplane, fly it for a year of so. After that you'll know what you really want.

Happy flying!
 
Piece of advice:

Airplanes are not like tech or cars, they are more like houses- treat them right and they'll be around a LONG time.

When looking at equipment, I'd say it's more important to look at MX and condition than age. The two junkiest planes I've flown were a 1978 and 2002. I've also flown 2001 planes that were nice, but the best-condition, best-flying planes I've seen are 1940's and 1950's vintage planes owned by people who cared for them. This, BTW, is substantially earlier than *I* came off the line.
 
Hey everyone, thank you so much for the encouraging answers. The advice to stop dismissing 40+ year old airplanes will not be easy to follow but I will try, perhaps a conversation with Mike Busch's team will help.

Again, can't thank you enough for the tons of useful info.
 
softtower said:
Hey everyone, thank you so much for the encouraging answers. The advice to stop dismissing 40+ year old airplanes will not be easy to follow but I will try, perhaps a conversation with Mike Busch's team will help.

Again, can't thank you enough for the tons of useful info.
Click to expand...

Some of the "sweet spots" for planes are the 40+ year old ones. Some have gotten heavy and bloated over the years.

Sounds like you need an RV10. :D
 
A flight school will not rent to rated pilots after the finish their rating?
What type of school is that? Sounds like ATP.
 
JimNtexas said:
I'd suggest you just go up to Arlington and talk to Van Bortle. They are a Cessna dealer and have a big selection of both new and used Cessnas. Their used inventory consists of almost entirely of late model well equipped airplanes, many of which will fit in your budget.

As others mentioned, Mike Busch (http://www.savvyaviator.com/ ) can arrange your pre-buy and do a lot of the management of your airplane.

I can't see you going far wrong by getting a nice Cessna 182, you'll keep that longer than C172. It's more airplane than C172, but it's not some kind of monster.

Whatever you get, buy a nice airplane, fly it for a year of so. After that you'll know what you really want.

Happy flying!
Click to expand...

Van Bortel has a deal where you can buy a 172 and they bill buy it back in 6 months. The terms are actually really good assuming you can swing the $350K initially. Then you have your own brand new airplane to train in and an unlimited choice of CFI's. If I were training, this is exactly what I would do. I got so tired of broken airplanes, BO, etc. For about the same cost per hour I could have just bought a new one.

I've bought a couple of airplanes from George, good people.
 
Also new planes around San Antonio:

*Bristell @ 5c1
*DA20 and Symphony (2005) @ Skysafety
*Others- Ryan Short, a member here, has a website that says he does training in a 2003 Skyhawk. Not sure what the status/setup for that is.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Van Bortel has a deal where you can buy a 172 and they bill buy it back in 6 months. The terms are actually really good assuming you can swing the $350K initially. Then you have your own brand new airplane to train in and an unlimited choice of CFI's. If I were training, this is exactly what I would do. I got so tired of broken airplanes, BO, etc. For about the same cost per hour I could have just bought a new one.

I've bought a couple of airplanes from George, good people.
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The one guy I know who bought a new plane won't be doing it again. Lots of little things to iron out.
 
You could buy a really nice plane and then sell shares in it to people that know more about maintaining it than you do.
 
warthog1984 said:
Also new planes around San Antonio:

*Bristell @ 5c1
*DA20 and Symphony (2005) @ Skysafety
*Others- Ryan Short, a member here, has a website that says he does training in a 2003 Skyhawk. Not sure what the status/setup for that is.
Click to expand...
I'm in the Austin / Burnet / Killeen area now. Also look for Anderson Aviation in Bulverde. That 2003 Skyhawk is now in San Marcos. I think that there are some newer aircraft in New Braunfels at the I3 subsidiary.
I'm in the older plane category as I choose to offer flight training in a 1946 Taylorcraft up here for tailwheel work.

Ryan
 
Do this: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/rvs/4506469115.html

Then take your leftover $488k and by a lot at 5c1 and build a hangar to rent back to the partnership.

Then take the leftover $300k and sock it away for a couple of years while you gain experience flying and owning and surveil the aircraft market.

Or put your own ad on craigslist; that's where I found my partners. More than 1/2 the responses you get will be from people trying to sell their plane. Especially if you tell them you are looking to spend $500k.

Seriously dude, slow down. And welcome!
 
softtower said:
Hey everyone, thank you so much for the encouraging answers. The advice to stop dismissing 40+ year old airplanes will not be easy to follow but I will try, perhaps a conversation with Mike Busch's team will help.

Again, can't thank you enough for the tons of useful info.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind the engines and the avionics - the bells and whistles - are rarely 40 years old..

If you've got that kind of bank laying around, go buy an old used airplane with a nice panel for under 100,000.... get your ticket in it... and sell it and go buy the nice new hotness that you have an eye for. You very well may even sell it for what you bought it for... if you are savvy...
 
bartmc said:
The one guy I know who bought a new plane won't be doing it again. Lots of little things to iron out.
Click to expand...

I've heard of a couple such incidents. Only thing worse than an old plane down for maintenance is a new plane down for maintenance....except for the warranty coverage!
 
You either buy old junk cheap (<25k) and keep it flying with regular infusions of cash, buy an old plane that has seen good care and upgrades with low hours and pay in the $45-$100k range, an older 'modern' era plane (max 10-12 years old) in the $150-$350k range, a <3yo plane for 30% off new, or a new plane for $500k-$1.2MM. You can also get a new vintage design (172, 182, 206...) in the $235k on up range. You can also get a new LSA aircraft in the $100k-200k range.

If you are looking for the best all around compromise between modern efficiency, low costs, and modern design and processes, the best value for a VFR trainer/2 seat cross country machine is IMO a Diamond DA-20. The only draw back to this plane is it is not and cannot be certified for operations in IMC.
 
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softtower said:
Hey everyone, thank you so much for the encouraging answers. The advice to stop dismissing 40+ year old airplanes will not be easy to follow but I will try, perhaps a conversation with Mike Busch's team will help.

Again, can't thank you enough for the tons of useful info.
Click to expand...

As far as 40yr old aircraft go, if you're ever up in the north DFW area, let me show off N55WB to you. A very nice 1975 C182P.

And there are many other very happy owners in the area for you to talk to who have aircraft manufactured between 1960 and 1980.
 
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There's a lot to be said for doing initial training in an old(er) plane, one that won't care about being beaten up, then buying something nicer. I chose that path when we had an actual vacuum system failure (and a few other things) during instrument training. Halfway through instrument training, I bought a very nice, IFR traveling-equipped Commander.... but I sure wouldn't want to use the Commander for initial.

All that said, there used to be a Mooney-specialized training operation at SAT. Can't remember the name of it, but the CFI I used for commercial did a lot of Mooney factory training.
 
wsuffa said:
...lized training operation at SAT. Can't remember the name of it, but the CFI I used for commercial did a lot of Mooney factory training.
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That would be All American Aircraft. The owner, Jimmy Garrison, gave me lots of good and free advice when I was airplane shopping a few years ago.

I think they also have a sister sales operation that specializes in Cirri.
 
There is nothing wrong with wanting a newer plane. If you have the money why not go for it.
 
RyanShort1 said:
This airplane is for sale pretty close to me...

http://austin.craigslist.org/for/4508803966.html
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If you can afford more than an unimproved old cheap plane, it is usually a better value to go ahead start with an upgraded plane for some extra money.

OP, figure out what you want to do with the plane, then chose it. In your position you cold even chose two, you could get a little C-140 or Luscombe in very nice condition and a nice Bonanza with a modern glass panel, and be in both of them for less than $175k. One machine to bounce around and have fun locally, one for getting places. You could also get the 140 and my 310...:idea:
 
Why buy any plane for training (other than the return example I gave)?

You don't want to keep a trainer long term anyway.

Who wants to try and sell an aircraft in this market?

Who wants to get stuck with a major repair that is likely a large portion of the planes value?

Who wants the potiential downtime in the middle of training?

I guess I just don't get it.:dunno:
 
Henning said:
If you are looking for the best all around compromise between modern efficiency, low costs, and modern design and processes, the best value for a VFR trainer/2 seat cross country machine is IMO a Diamond DA-20. The only draw back to this plane is it is not and cannot be certified for operations in IMC.
Click to expand...

Agreed - But the DA40 has the same advantages AND is IFR certified and has four seats. Flies beautifully, easy enough to train in, but fast enough that it'll keep you satisfied for a while. It's not a load hauler - Don't plan on taking 4 full-grown Texas-sized adults, but it'll do 2 and bags for the weekend or 3 for a day jaunt quite well. Safety record is excellent. Our club has been VERY happy with the DA40.
 
JimNtexas said:
That would be All American Aircraft. The owner, Jimmy Garrison, gave me lots of good and free advice when I was airplane shopping a few years ago.

I think they also have a sister sales operation that specializes in Cirri.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's one. I believe there's another, too, that focuses more on training.
 
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