Getting close to solo'

[Jhernandez04]

Hey guys, I started my private license quest in July! I work 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, so I have to schedule my training on my off days obviously. Here is where I'm at currently.


PA-28 235 Cherokee
11.2 Hours
41 T'n Go's (we've done the usual stalls, turns, ground school training etc.)

I want to focus more on the landings part, as this is where im getting really frustrated with my CFI.

I can understand him being extremely "handsy" on the yoke, I would be too! But doesn't there come a time when he will let me do it myself? On my 3rd hour he had all but let me do the takeoffs which I feel I'm doing great on! And it actually shows because he doesn't touch anything. But on the landings he's always telling me things like don't flare yet and then immediately telling me to keep back pressure as he's pulling back. Its confusing! My last 5 landing have been really good, I wouldn't called them greased or anything, but my wife who doesn't like me flying anyways commented on my landings being really good.

But its not all me, I feel like im doing 85% of it and just at the last minute my CFI always touches the yoke.... my frame of mind is, im on landing #41.... let me see where im at, is this a trust issue or does he really think I just cant do it? Its really messing my confidence up, is this common? I honestly believe I'm ready for him to not touch anything and do my solo, but his lack of trust is, disheartening.

I dunno, am I wrong to feel this way? Thanks for any constructive input.


On the other hand, I'm really excited about learning how to fly. Im really glad I made the decision to do this! I cant wait to be a licensed PP!!!

 

[Mafoo]

That is odd.

After the second lesson, I think my CFI only touched the controls once (when I balloned pretty high)

At the time of my solo (last week) I had done 43 landings. The last 35 or so he has not touched the yoke, and the last 20 he didn't say anything at all, accept for me to watch my speed a few times.

Not sure about the Piper, but in the C150, you got to do something really stupid to screw it up enough to do damage. A lot of those landings were pretty bad at the start, but he still just let me mess them up, and go around.

If my CFI was that hands on, it would drive me crazy.

 

[Henning]

Three hours before he let you take off? That's a lot especially in a plane with rudder trim.

 

[denverpilot]

Seems a bit cautious, but we aren't there. Consider asking another CFI to go up with you and see if something just isn't right.

Also specifically say to your CFI that you'd like to know what it is that you are doing or not doing that has them reaching for the yoke all the time, and explain that it's messing with your confidence which probably is a vicious circle.

In fact, do that first. They may not realize they're causing you heartburn. It happens.

My first CFI was hands off most of the time but when he came on the controls I could already see I was out of control or rapidly heading for it.

He also would wait until I plateaued on a particular skill and then offer to demonstrate one "better" to show it could be done.

"Mind if I try one?" was code for, "You're not trying hard enough."

At that point it was a challenge to me to try as hard as I could to keep him from offering to demo anything, because that meant I was doing well.

Or... a bet to see if I really knew the capabilities of the airplane... High on final, he'd say, "If you're not down and off by the first taxiway, you're buying me a Coke."

I respond well to challenges. Some people don't. A good CFI will see it and exploit it. Heh.

Jesse figured it out, too. "Bet'cha can't keep those needles inside the donut all the way down the ILS..."

Damn right I can! Hey wait a sec... You sneaky CFI.

Sometimes a student and instructor just don't click, too. But...

Start by giving the benefit of the doubt and explain your frustrations. If he's still "grabby", trial run another CFI. If he's grabbing but not offering specifics about what needs fixed, that's a problem.

And if you try another CFI and they're BOTH grabbing a lot, you're fooling yourself about the quality of your landings.

 

[jspilot]

My experience was similar to yours in that the instructor was still pretty involved in the landings at the stage you are in. I'm a bit confused by your thread title though because it would seem to me that you are not close to the solo if the instructor still seems to think he needs to be involved in the landing to the level you are decribing( actually taking control of the yoke). My experience was when you are close to the solo the instructor became more of a glorified passenger and will just sit there literally with his hands on his lap and mouth closed.

I hope you do get to solo soon as it is a great feeling but with just over 10 hours you still have plenty of time to practice before you nail down the skills.

 

[Jhernandez04]

My experience was similar to yours in that the instructor was still pretty involved in the landings at the stage you are in. I'm a bit confused by your thread title though because it would seem to me that you are not close to the solo if the instructor still seems to think he needs to be involved in the landing to the level you are decribing( actually taking control of the yoke). My experience was when you are close to the solo the instructor became more of a glorified passenger and will just sit there literally with his hands on his lap and mouth closed.

I hope you do get to solo soon as it is a great feeling but with just over 10 hours you still have plenty of time to practice before you nail down the skills.

Thats the strange part, he's telling me im getting close. I've asked him where he thinks i'll solo and he has been saying between 13-15 hours. I thought maybe this is decent because its a 235hp plane? I guess not.

I've also tried one other CFI, which I liked a lot... but everyone is so busy around here. I'm nervous to confront him about it because, what if I do suck? lol, that would be another confidence deflate'r.... I'll see how this next hour goes.


I'm not fooling myself I don't believe, bc the instructor says that my landings may have seemed rough, but actually they weren't bad at all. whatever that means......

 

[MAKG1]

I've been in your shoes. It's not doing you any favors. Have a heart-to-heart, and if it doesn't improve, find another instructor.

Feedback is essential; my CFI was afraid of "offending" me, and had some trouble getting past that. She also wouldn't get her hands off the yoke during the flare until I complained. One thing she never did well was "positive transfer of control," which grated on me.

You're a new student pilot. You do "suck," just like every other new student pilot. The point is to figure out how not to suck. Once you do that, you won't be new anymore.

Going up once with another CFI can help diagnose the problems, and can be very valuable.

You don't need good landings at this point. You need consistently safe landings under good conditions. That's a much lower threshold. Even on your checkride, safety is the concern, just under a wider array of conditions.

I've never flown a 235 HP PA-28, but the specs look quite similar to an Archer (PA-28-181), except for the gross weight. Approach and landing characteristics are largely determined by the clean and dirty stall speeds, and I only see 3 knots difference there.

 

[Jhernandez04]

I've been in your shoes. It's not doing you any favors. Have a heart-to-heart, and if it doesn't improve, find another instructor.

Feedback is essential; my CFI was afraid of "offending" me, and had some trouble getting past that. She also wouldn't get her hands off the yoke during the flare until I complained. One thing she never did well was "positive transfer of control," which grated on me.

You're a new student pilot. You do "suck," just like every other new student pilot. The point is to figure out how not to suck. Once you do that, you won't be new anymore.

Going up once with another CFI can help diagnose the problems, and can be very valuable.

You don't need good landings at this point. You need consistently safe landings under good conditions. That's a much lower threshold. Even on your checkride, safety is the concern, just under a wider array of conditions.

I've never flown a 235 HP PA-28, but the specs look quite similar to an Archer (PA-28-181), except for the gross weight. Approach and landing characteristics are largely determined by the clean and dirty stall speeds, and I only see 3 knots difference there.

Being so similar can you give me a run through on your set up starting with your base leg?

 

[MAKG1]

Setup starts on downwind, not the base leg.

And it will vary with conditions, especially headwinds, crosswinds, and density altitude. You WILL NOT "get it" by copying my procedure.

Having said that, here it is, used on Warrior, Archer, and with tiny modifications, Cessna 172.

Zero wind at sea level, it's 80 KIAS at 800 feet (local pattern altitude) fully trimmed and stable on downwind. Repeat the pre-landing checklist. Abeam the numbers, lose 200 RPM, 10 deg flaps right away, pitch to 75 KIAS and trim. Base, set 25 deg flaps, trim for 70 KIAS. Final, set full flaps, slow to 65 KIAS, adjust power to split the PAPI or to keep the threshold line constant in the window. Cut the power over the edge of the pavement (even if it's a displaced threshold) and glide in. Flare to hold a foot off the runway until in climb attitude. In the Warrior, do not wait for the stall horn (it's OK in the Archer).

But I modify this all the time. If I'm stable on glide with 25 flaps, I'll leave it. In a 15 knot headwind, unmodified technique will put me far short of the runway. One way of dealing with this is an earlier and higher base turn.

Some people like to use 90 KIAS on downwind for Pipers. That works, but I find the slower speed to help with following Cessnas (they really need the slower speed because Vfe is just 85 on a 172N).

 

[Henning]

Setup starts on downwind, not the base leg.

And it will vary with conditions, especially headwinds, crosswinds, and density altitude. You WILL NOT "get it" by copying my procedure.

Having said that, here it is, used on Warrior, Archer, and with tiny modifications, Cessna 172.

Zero wind at sea level, it's 80 KIAS at 800 feet (local pattern altitude) fully trimmed and stable on downwind. Abeam the numbers, lose 200 RPM, 10 deg flaps right away, pitch to 75 KIAS and trim. Base, set 25 deg flaps, trim for 70 KIAS. Final, set full flaps, slow to 65 KIAS, adjust power to split the PAPI or to keep the threshold line constant in the window. Cut the power over the edge of the pavement (even if it's a displaced threshold) and glide in. Flare to hold a foot off the runway until in climb attitude. In the Warrior, do not wait for the stall horn (it's OK in the Archer).

But I modify this all the time. If I'm stable on glide with 25 flaps, I'll leave it. In a 15 knot headwind, unmodified technique will put me far short of the runway.

Some people like to use 90 KIAS on downwind for Pipers. That works, but I find the slower speed to help with following Cessnas (they really need the slower speed because Vfe is just 85 on a 172N).

Why would you leave reduced flaps in? Do you glide into your landings? Why not add throttle instead to make your TD spot with full flaps so you have more precision of control in awkward conditions rather than less?

 

[MAKG1]

Why would you leave reduced flaps in? Do you glide into your landings? Why not add throttle instead to make your TD spot with full flaps so you have more precision of control in awkward conditions rather than less?

A couple of reasons. One is just fewer changes to configuration. If it's already good, it's good. On a really short runway (where short field technique is really important), full flaps are essential, and I'll do it there. The 2400 feet I have at the home field is shorter than most, but it's pretty comfortable as long as airspeed is under control; no short field technique is necessary.

There are also thermals every afternoon on the bayshore, even in calm winds, and full flaps gives you more fore/aft control, but less transverse control. With gusty winds, 25 deg flaps seems to work better. In still air, that's not the case.

I usually use partial-power approaches (it usually sits around 1500 RPM after losing the 200 I mentioned before), but I'll glide in if I'm high and fast after base to final, or increase it as needed if I'm low and slow (the other two cases will be corrected by pitch first).

Of course, there are a lot of variations on technique. Mostly, do what works.

The #1 error when learning is approaching too fast. I mean it when I say 65 knots. Not 66. Excess airspeed means floating, and it can be really scary with low or no flaps and an extra 10 knots on a 2400 foot runway in a Warrior.

Note that there are reasons to change that speed (heavy gross weight, gusty winds), but don't do it just out of sloppiness.

 

[Henning]

Solo in the planes you're talking about 65 is 5 too fast already. The questions I asked were for you to think on, I already know the answers you were going to give and I know they are inconsistent with achieving best result with regards to safety in a small light plane, it's just a way to consistently get an acceptable result while increasing risk and exposure to a loss.

Remember, the FAA program is set up to produce the safest airline pilots, not private pilots therefor many of the things learned during primacy are best practice for a jet, not a spam can. Spam can should be full flaps on every landing. Very likely this is what your CFI was taught and is all they know.

 

[MAKG1]

Point taken. Almost certainly, my CFI taught me that because it's what she was taught. I've found several other examples of incorrect answers that came from that (e.g., leaning based on true altitude!).

I don't often fly solo -- the family is usually with me. In the Warrior or a 160 HP 172, that puts it near max gross at takeoff (of course, less than that after a few-hour flight). There is some margin in an Archer, and, yes, it likes to land on the slow side to minimize floating.

The question is what I do, not what is "right" or even appropriate for the different circumstances of the OP. That's why I said he wouldn't "get it" by copying my technique.

 

[Henning]

Point taken. Almost certainly, my CFI taught me that because it's what she was taught. I've found several other examples of incorrect answers that came from that (e.g., leaning based on true altitude!).

I don't often fly solo -- the family is usually with me. In the Warrior or a 160 HP 172, that puts it near max gross at takeoff (of course, less than that after a few-hour flight). There is some margin in an Archer, and, yes, it likes to land on the slow side to minimize floating.

The question is what I do, not what is "right" or even appropriate for the different circumstances of the OP. That's why I said he wouldn't "get it" by copying my technique.

The circumstance surrounding the use of full flaps and throttle to manage energy vs increased speed with reduced flaps never changes. You are using the easy path rather than the correct path gambling that the increase in odds of it going wrong being insignificant to the long term result. You may be correct with that, you may not, that's what makes gambling interesting.

 

[dell30rb]

Touchdown mains first (after a bounce too) keep it on the runway with rudder and keep it from flipping in a crosswind with aileron and you'll be fine! It is .. almost... that simple

With 11 hours I am not surprised your CFI is still coming on the controls, it is probably expected. If you get a few more hours and you and your CFI feel you are nearing solo and he is still 'helping' you with most landings and not giving you a satisfactory explanation, then you might need to start asking questions

 

[MAKG1]

I would argue that if the CFI is ever taking the controls without mentioning exactly why on the taxiway or during a debrief, that CFI is not helping. It's a safety thing, so this doesn't have to be done before taking the controls, but if it isn't done after, learning is less than optimal and may not be taking place at all.

 

[MAKG1]

The circumstance surrounding the use of full flaps and throttle to manage energy vs increased speed with reduced flaps never changes. You are using the easy path rather than the correct path gambling that the increase in odds of it going wrong being insignificant to the long term result. You may be correct with that, you may not, that's what makes gambling interesting.

Don't get me wrong -- I'll try this out. It's not hard to do. No need to gamble. The go-around is slightly more difficult, but I've done 40 deg go-arounds on a hot day and (separately) at 8000+ feet density altitude, so I know it's possible. One mainly has to manage the pitch-up (especially in a Cessna) and develop a positive rate of climb. It's not the first time I've corrected something from primary training (like the leaning I mentioned earlier -- that one should have been obvious to the CFI given the circumstances -- poor climb performance on a nasty hot day after some ground reference maneuvers).

 

[Henning]

Don't get me wrong -- I'll try this out. It's not hard to do. No need to gamble. The go-around is slightly more difficult, but I've done 40 deg go-arounds on a hot day and (separately) at 8000+ feet density altitude, so I know it's possible. One mainly has to manage the pitch-up (especially in a Cessna) and develop a positive rate of climb. It's not the first time I've corrected something from primary training (like the leaning I mentioned earlier -- that one should have been obvious to the CFI given the circumstances -- poor climb performance on a nasty hot day after some ground reference maneuvers).

You'll also find that it's a much better technique in a crosswind as the extra RPMs give more force to the rudder than the extra airspeed, you can be much more precise with your touch down spot, and when you are on you spend a lot less time in that danger zone of 'just about to fly' where a gust of wind can ruin your day and send you skidding off into the runway lights.

Excess speed is always the wrong answer to managing the low energy realm in a recip. It gets taught for jets because of spool up time, recipes don't have that problem, we have instant thrust augmentation.

 

[Jhernandez04]

Well I go back for another hour friday morning. Im going to mention to him that I want to try to land on my own and just to stay close. We'll see how that goes.

 

[jason]

Well I go back for another hour friday morning. Im going to mention to him that I want to try to land on my own and just to stay close. We'll see how that goes.

Instead of telling him what you want, why don't you just ask him why he's doing it? You're the person that doesn't know how to fly. He's the person that is teaching you. I'm not saying that he is or is not doing that well....but, to me, it seems awfully presumptuous for an 11 hour student to tell his instructor when he's ready to land a Cherokee 235.

I gotta say that I also don't understand students with ~10 hours asking their instructor when they're going to solo. You'll solo when you land it almost every time without much worry that you're going to damage the aircraft. If I was your instructor and you asked me that question my answer would likely be "when you're ready". If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't worry about when. I'd just concentrate on learning to operate the aircraft safely.

 

[Irish_Armada]

I know they are inconsistent with achieving best result with regards to safety in a small light plane, it's just a way to consistently get an acceptable result while increasing risk and exposure to a loss.

I find this whole conversation extremely interesting and helpful. Just so I understand this point Henning, you're saying that in the 172's we fly around, the safest way to bring 'er down is with full flaps regardless of situation (for the most part) because the greater power required with full flaps gives you more control surface effectiveness and thus the ability to be more precise on landing? And risk is increased when gliding or doing reduced flaps settings because engine power will be naturally reduced and thus decrease the amount of control you have over the aircraft due to reduced control surface effectiveness? This is definitely an area I know I could be more consistent in.

 

[denverpilot]

Partially true. You can also use full flaps and a very steep descent to maintain speed which kills the whole power over the tail thing. It requires very accurate flare timing because of the sink rate being high and probably isn't a great idea to be doing early on.

The main real math and physics reason to land with full flaps is simple... You're traveling slower at landing.

That's the whole point of having them. Have a loss of control event at a lower speed, there's going to be a lot less blunt force trauma, usually.

Otherwise on light aircraft we'd just build them without flaps and we'd use appropriately long runways.

 

[Jhernandez04]

update!

It seems liked maybe the CFI from another FBO discussed my issues with him because he first explained to me what he wanted today (something he really hadnt done). He wanted me to stay on the center line during landings better and keep the nose gear up during landing. (fixed gear, not retract)...lol


I went up with my CFI, started the taxi and handled the radios with confidence took off perfect centerline climbed to 1800ft on the downwind leg, turned to base (Called tower), set the final approach up perfect. Went to land and something strange happened.... he didnt touch anything! He calmly told me to keep the nose wheel up.... touched down! Flaps down, carb heat in and power in and took off again! Everything went even better from then on.

We did 5 t'n goes. We usually do like 8, so something was weird, but I was alright with it because I was really pleased with how the day went. He made me taxi on the 2nd turn and told me to park in my usual place but leave the keys in..... strange?!

We went over the pre solo exam, he said he was going to solo me today!!! Sadly, I misplaced my medical but we're set for Monday!!!

 

[denverpilot]

There ya go.

Figure out the standards and fly to or better than them and Instructors will leave your airplane alone.

Let us know how solo goes.

 

[Henning]

I find this whole conversation extremely interesting and helpful. Just so I understand this point Henning, you're saying that in the 172's we fly around, the safest way to bring 'er down is with full flaps regardless of situation (for the most part) because the greater power required with full flaps gives you more control surface effectiveness and thus the ability to be more precise on landing? And risk is increased when gliding or doing reduced flaps settings because engine power will be naturally reduced and thus decrease the amount of control you have over the aircraft due to reduced control surface effectiveness? This is definitely an area I know I could be more consistent in.

You got it. Also general rule of thumb, less than 20* flaps is more lift than drag, more than is more drag than lift, so max flaps also gives you the best brakes.