Get my Rotory and Fixed wing certs at the same time???

Griffin2/147

Griffin2/147

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Griffin2/147
i am currently in training to get my rotary wings for the Army. i will have some "free time" until i get to my advanced aircraft, and i was wondering what i would need to do in order to transfer my training in rotary to the fixed wing side of the house. i am in the National Guard and i will not be flying full time for them. however, i want to make a career in Aviation for both the Military and Civilian. the goal is to be a CFI when i go back to my state. is that possible with only hours in the helos? where would i need to go and how long would it take to get up to a CFI rating for Fixed wing? i have about 3 to 6 months of "free time" to accomplish this, is that even feasible? i appreciate any and all pieces of information!

Thanks!
 
I'm not sure it's efficient to do both at the same time. There are motor skills that do not transfer between the two.

If the NG is paying for the helo training, I personally would wait until I could transfer that to civilian, then do the fixed wing commercial as an add on.

I'm not sure if your military training would get you an instrument rating. If not then fixed wing would be a cheaper alternative and the helo instrument is a fairly easy add on.

Doing the CFI together is certainly doable.

Just my 2¢

Joe
 
You can certainly get a CFI-RH with only helo time. You will be able to obtain an FAA CP-RH certificate based on your Army helo pilot training by taking a special FAA written test for military aviators after you get your Army wings. I'm not sure about the whether you get a helo instrument rating based on Army helo pilot training (the folks at Rucker will know that for sure), but unlike fixed-wing, you don't need an instrument rating to get a CFI for helicopters. There is no minimum time for earning your CFI once you have your CP-RH, but you'll have to take the Fundamentals of Instruction and CFI-Helicopter written tests, and be trained to proficiency as an instructor -- for a competent commercial pilot, that usually takes 10-20 hours of flight training for an initial CFI.

However, if you want to get your fixed-wing CFI ticket, you will have to start by adding an ASEL rating onto your CP-RH ticket, and that means filling all the experience squares for CP-ASEL in 61.129. You'll probably have most of the 250 hour total time requirement met with your Army helo time, but you'll need at least 50 hours of airplane time including probably 20 hours or so of training to fill them all -- assuming you can reach proficiency in that amount of time.

Also, before you can get your CFI-Airplane, you'll also have to earn your airplane instrument rating. If you get the IR-Helo based on your Army wings, you could do that in as little as 15 hours of airplane instrument training. Otherwise, you may need more instrument time to the minimum total of 40 hours of instrument time (some of which you can get with a safety pilot rather than an instructor). The good news is that any airplane instrument time you get for the airplane instrument rating will count towards the required airplane time for your airplane pilot category rating. All in all, it should not be hard to get that airplane pilot rating in 50 airplane hours after you get your Army wings.

Once you have your airplane pilot and instrument ratings, you can then go on to get your CFI airplane rating -- if you're already a CFI-RH at that point, that shouldn't take a lot of work, probably 5-10 hours of training to be ready for the practical test.
 
ghogue said:
It does.
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I know that's always been true for Navy/Marine and USAF helo pilots, who got fully instrument training before they got their wings, but not always for Army Aviators, because they were basically VFR-only when they got their wings with only something called a "tactical instrument rating" which the FAA didn't recognize, and could (but didn't always) get fully instrument-qualified down the road. When did that change? Are all Army helo pilots now getting fully instrument-qualified before they get their wings?
 
yes we do get instrument certified in rotors for the Army in both the trainer and the advanced airframe. What would I have to do to pull that over to both fixed wing and the Civ side? Thanks for all the info too!
 
Griffin2/147 said:
yes we do get instrument certified in rotors for the Army in both the trainer and the advanced airframe. What would I have to do to pull that over to both fixed wing and the Civ side?
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To get your rotary-wing qualifications over to the civilian side, you take the "Military Competence-Helicopter" (MCH) written test (here's one place to study for it http://www.dauntless-soft.com/products/groundschool/milcomp.asp), and then take the passing test report with your military flight records to any FSDO or Designated Pilot Examiner along with an FAA Form 8710-1 requesting issuance of a CP-RH-IH pilot certificate. You get issued a CP-RH-IH Temporary Airman Certificate on the spot, and your permanent "credit card" certificate comes in the mail a couple of months later.

To add the fixed-wing ratings, you do what I said above -- get with a flight school, get 50 hours of airplane time including whatever flight training with an instructor is needed to get you to the proficiency level necessary to pass the CP-ASEL and Instrument-Airplane practical tests (including at least 15 hours of instrument flight training), and then take the tests. You won't need an additional knowledge test for either the ASEL or IA add-ons since you already hold an instrument rating in a powered aircraft.

That covers you for the pilot ratings, and the CFI ratings are discussed in my first post.

Oh yeah -- don't forget to get your Army Flight Surgeon to write you an FAA Aviation Medical Certificate -- you'll need that for solo flying and the practical test.
 
Ron Levy said:
but not always for Army Aviators, because they were basically VFR-only when they got their wings with only something called a "tactical instrument rating" which the FAA didn't recognize, and could (but didn't always) get fully instrument-qualified down the road. When did that change?
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'Bout 35 years ago. Right after Viet Nam.
 
I did what you are talking about way back in 1972. I was the in the second Army rotary wing class to get a standard ticket (IR). Previously, they had the tactical instrument rating.
We took our first phase of training in Mineral Wells, TX where we got our helo and IR ratings. At Rucker, we did tactical training and made the transition to UH-1s.

I had a break between Mineral Wells and Rucker over Christmas. In four weeks, I went to the local airport and got my commercial fixed wing rating. Military time did count to meet some hour requirements; I just had to show I had them.

After Rucker, I went to Cobra transition in Savannah during the day, and got my fixed wing IR at night. I sat for the written test Ron talked about to get my commercial IR rotary wing ratings. I just don't remember when, but I'm pretty sure it was at Rucker near the end of training. I had to submit some form showing my military training.

After Cobra transition, I went to a live fire exercise in Vietnam for a year. Hopefully, you won't have to do something like that. Here's a couple buddies in F9 in front of what we flew.

Hope it goes well for you. I had a great time.

Best,

Dave
 

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If you can endure another pic. Here is a pic on our way out to the A.O. It was one of the most glorious mornings I recall until the ground fire started.

Best,

Dave
 

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Wow! first and foremost, thank you for serving! and i love the pictures

how many hours did you have before you went to the local airport? it would be amazing if i could have my commercial before i leave Rucker!

is there anything else i should do while i am here? the goal is to have a civilian job lined up for me when i get back to my home state, or at lease have the ratings for one.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I did what you are talking about way back in 1972. I was the in the second Army rotary wing class to get a standard ticket (IR). Previously, they had the tactical instrument rating.
We took our first phase of training in Mineral Wells, TX where we got our helo and IR ratings. At Rucker, we did tactical training and made the transition to UH-1s.

I had a break between Mineral Wells and Rucker over Christmas. In four weeks, I went to the local airport and got my commercial fixed wing rating. Military time did count to meet some hour requirements; I just had to show I had them.

After Rucker, I went to Cobra transition in Savannah during the day, and got my fixed wing IR at night. I sat for the written test Ron talked about to get my commercial IR rotary wing ratings. I just don't remember when, but I'm pretty sure it was at Rucker near the end of training. I had to submit some form showing my military training.

After Cobra transition, I went to a live fire exercise in Vietnam for a year. Hopefully, you won't have to do something like that. Here's a couple buddies in F9 in front of what we flew.

Hope it goes well for you. I had a great time.

Best,

Dave
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Was that launcher in the picture loaded? I don't think I'd want to stand in front of a loaded one, or behind one for that matter.
 
Lance: Probably. You can see the red piece flopping around in the wind. That was to be pulled before takeoff. We had gotten pretty used to standing in front of rocket pods. As you observe, not the best thing to do. If the angle were different we could be sure, but it was quite common.

Best,

Dave
 
Griffin2/147 said:
Wow! first and foremost, thank you for serving! and i love the pictures

how many hours did you have before you went to the local airport? it would be amazing if i could have my commercial before i leave Rucker!

is there anything else i should do while i am here? the goal is to have a civilian job lined up for me when i get back to my home state, or at lease have the ratings for one.
Click to expand...

We had 220 hours when we finished our training. When I went and got my commercial fixed wing we probably had a little over half that; I really don't recall. But, we had met all of the commercial requirements. Ron would know those requirements better than I. I think I just had to learn the systems and to handle the bird to commercial standards.

The IR wasn't bad after having just completed the rotary IR. I liked instrument flight and still do; might not be the same for some others. The CO at Savannah didn't like me doing the instrument work at night. He thought I should focus on Cobra training; so, you might be discrete if it's an issue.

My CO at Mineral Wells really appreciated me working on my commercial FW during the long Christmas break; took me off duty officer rotation. Most of the fellas just took the time off. Of course, the Army didn't recognize my FW ratings as far as flying Army aircraft.

Best,

Dave
 
One other point - does Army policy forbid students from "off-hours" flight training? I believe it did at one point, at least before you earned your wings.
 
I will have to check on that, i know when i arrived here there was a list of things the CDR put out that we (the students) couldnt do. i know one of them was no scuba diving, but i dont think "off-hours" flight was on there.
 
I guess I didn't mention it, but I didn't have any academic problems in my class; if you're having a bit of trouble, that would be another issue.

I just wouldn't be a good coach as far as what to do for a job. There are some other board members that have recently tackled that issue. They could give you much better advise. You might post that under a different topic in case they aren't reading this.

Best,

Dave
 
Griffin2/147 said:
I will have to check on that, i know when i arrived here there was a list of things the CDR put out that we (the students) couldnt do. i know one of them was no scuba diving, but i dont think "off-hours" flight was on there.
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It is...no private flying....but like most things in B Co....the rules get broken. I went through in 05 and took the FAA Comp. test in Daleville. When I got home I submitted my cert to the FSDO and it didn't take long to get a temp cert for my Comm Rotary and Inst. Rotary. (but it wasn't right away). The hard card took awhile. Most flight surgeons in the Army can't sign off on your civilian medical. I just went to a civilian doc and talked flying and paid my 50 bucks. I also got my fixed wing certs after Rucker but it took me awhile do to the usual delays (wx, maint, CFI hungover, j/k on the last one, and of course money). If you get your fixed private in your time off your doing good... I felt no need to rush into it because I wanted to enjoy doing it. After coming back from a deployment I want to get back into it and take my Comm. ride and later my CFI. Good luck and have fun at Mother Rucker. Ohh stay way from the cougars at Oscars.....:blowingkisses: :nonod:
 
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Ron Levy said:
I know that's always been true for Navy/Marine and USAF helo pilots, who got fully instrument training before they got their wings, but not always for Army Aviators, because they were basically VFR-only when they got their wings with only something called a "tactical instrument rating" which the FAA didn't recognize, and could (but didn't always) get fully instrument-qualified down the road. When did that change? Are all Army helo pilots now getting fully instrument-qualified before they get their wings?
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Ron,
It changed around 1972/73. Army stopped issuing the "Tactical Instrument" at that time and all aviators were required to qualify for the "Standard Instrument" rating, although the term "standard is no longer used. I upgraded to standard in 1973, walked into the Honolulu GADO and was issued my instrument rating from the FAA.

edit: I should have read the rest of the posts before answering, the other guys already covered it. Broke my own pet-peeve about reading the entire thread before answering.:rolleyes:

gary
 
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drizzt76 said:
It is...no private flying....but like most things in B Co....the rules get broken. I went through in 05 and took the FAA Comp. test in Daleville. When I got home I submitted my cert to the FSDO and it didn't take long to get a temp cert for my Comm Rotary and Inst. Rotary. (but it wasn't right away). The hard card took awhile. Most flight surgeons in the Army can't sign off on your civilian medical. I just went to a civilian doc and talked flying and paid my 50 bucks. I also got my fixed wing certs after Rucker but it took me awhile do to the usual delays (wx, maint, CFI hungover, j/k on the last one, and of course money). If you get your fixed private in your time off your doing good... I felt no need to rush into it because I wanted to enjoy doing it. After coming back from a deployment I want to get back into it and take my Comm. ride and later my CFI. Good luck and have fun at Mother Rucker. Ohh stay way from the cougars at Oscars.....:blowingkisses: :nonod:
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damn... do you think the rules are different for the guys in D Co? :) i guess ill just have to settle for the test then. i was hoping that i could knock out all the fixed wing certs and nab a job when i get back home. thank you for all the information. oh and the pack of cougars have already claimed one of my friends... its wasnt pretty... but thanks for the heads up:D
 
Griffin2/147 said:
damn... do you think the rules are different for the guys in D Co? :) i guess ill just have to settle for the test then. i was hoping that i could knock out all the fixed wing certs and nab a job when i get back home. thank you for all the information. oh and the pack of cougars have already claimed one of my friends... its wasnt pretty... but thanks for the heads up:D
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Don't forget that when you get back to your home unit, you will have to progress and honestly its were the real learning begins. Rucker is good for teaching rote memory but the IPs at your unit will develop your knowledge further. I jumped in my progression and didn't start my fixed wing training until that was done. I just wanted to start out right with my new unit and it did pay off. Each to their own....I've seen people take 1-2 years to become PIC and others never really do. Too bad for your friend.... somethings never change.
 
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