Geriatric pilots dangerous?

[ClimbnSink]

It'll be your turn someday if you live long enough.

I sincerely hope not. Gladly trade a few years to die mobile and sane(well, functionally sane.)

 

[Everskyward]

Seriously, as someone who rides a lot and is very aware of other drivers 95% of the time someone almost causes an accident it's a woman talking on her cellphone or an old person.

Or an aggressive young guy who decides he's going to pass on the shoulder because he can't wait for the car making a left turn in front of him and subsequently spins out head on into a cement truck. It was the last thing he did.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Maybe. Maybe not. But it is a question I have thought about quite a bit lately. I know for a fact I do not have the chops I did when I was flying on active duty, but I think I am still as capable as most of the GA pilots out there. I have recently began re-exploring my very rusty IFR skills in helicopters and have been actually surprised at how fast the procedures came back once I got used to the smaller machine. I think the OP might be seeing the older generation through the eyes of youthful overconfidence and ignorance of the fact that while the body may be frail, once behind the controls the skills are at a level he has yet to experience.

 

[GCA319]

Meh...I guess it depends. One of the best pilots I've ever flown with is a retired Eastern captain in his 70's that I used to fly aerial photography with. You can't always generalize based on age.

 

[Everskyward]

think the OP might be seeing the older generation through the eyes of youthful overconfidence and ignorance of the fact that while the body may be frail, once behind the controls the skills are at a level he has yet to experience.

That might be true of the pilot the OP saw but it won't be true forever for any of us. It might be comforting to recall someone who is still sharp at 80 or 90 but that's not going to last forever and for most people it comes sooner.

I know some people here will keep on driving until they forget how to start the car or can't get into it unassisted no matter what someone tells them. Hopefully they will have the sense not to fly but judgment is one of the things that goes too.

That's not to say that I think we should test people for their cognitive skills at a certain age but to deny it happens is ignoring the hard truth.

 

[Xscaliber]

Old auto drivers...old pilots....

I was a not too slow auto racer for over 35 years until I decided self preservation was more important to me than when I was younger...

So I took up flying....

Now I'm one of those old (but not really old) pilots at 65, who's feelings are hurt by this thread....

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Determining ability and competence. Isn't that what the BFR is for?

 

[SCCutler]

Absent genuinely disabling physical condition, I will take age and experience over youth and physical perfection. Experience builds judgment. Note that the vast majority of accidents are pilot error, so I choose the experienced ones.

One of the best pilots I know displayed amazingly bad judgment in an airplane once- it could have ended his career before it started (or worse). Older pilots don't do that kind of stuff.

 

[yakdriver]

My Dad is 86 and flies his Aztec IFR and down to Mexico all the time. He is in great mental and physical health and a great driver also. I will fly anywhere with him. He has been flying an Aztec for almost 50 years so he wears the thing. Don

 

[Everskyward]

Absent genuinely disabling physical condition, I will take age and experience over youth and physical perfection. Experience builds judgment. Note that the vast majority of accidents are pilot error, so I choose the experienced ones.

Up to a certain point. I have had the experience of refusing to sign off someone's instrument check because he couldn't successfully do vectors to the ILS at his home airport after multiple sessions. He claimed his wife (who was a pilot but didn't have a medical) always helped him with the radios and navigation. But a Cessna 210 is not a two-pilot airplane. I think he knew what was wrong and was somewhat embarrassed by it.

This was an eye-opening experience for me because I was young at the time. I wouldn't be as surprised now.

 

[Geico266]

I know several pilots flying that are in their 80s. One owns several planes including a P-51, Lear, Bonanza, hyperbite, and many more. He regularly flies airshows in which he lands a Cub on top of a moving Suburban with a "landing strip" on top, races a dragster with the hyperbite inverted. Then does aerobatics in the Mustang. All within an hour or two.

It all depends on the pilot, not his age.

 

[Concorde]

Well, it's like everything else, it depends on the individual. I've flown with some UFOs who were in fine shape mentally, and that's where it really counts. You don't have to be in that great of shape physically to fly, it's probably less physically demanding than driving a car, for sure your reactions don't need to be near as good in an airplane.

 

[Henning]

That might be true of the pilot the OP saw but it won't be true forever for any of us. It might be comforting to recall someone who is still sharp at 80 or 90 but that's not going to last forever and for most people it comes sooner.

I know some people here will keep on driving until they forget how to start the car or can't get into it unassisted no matter what someone tells them. Hopefully they will have the sense not to fly but judgment is one of the things that goes too.

That's not to say that I think we should test people for their cognitive skills at a certain age but to deny it happens is ignoring the hard truth.

Here's the question, since if I'm in that bad of shape I'm pretty much end of life. Why would I choose that time to quit flying? Heck, that's when it's time to take up aerobatics in the 310. End of life is when it makes the least sense to avoid risk.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Determining ability and competence. Isn't that what the BFR is for?

Yeah, and how many BFRs really do that?

 

[Mistake Not...]

Age isn't the problem. Determining whether or not you're able to fly, and then successfully preventing you from flying if you're not, is the problem.

We all know people who, through money, connections or luck, continue to fly long after they should stop. As the anecdata indicates, a simple age limit won't prevent this. BFRs won't prevent this, because you can always find a friendly flight instructor. I'm not even sure mandatory check rides with an FAA examiner would do it in all cases, because of the local politics.

 

[steingar]

My Dad is 86 and flies his Aztec IFR and down to Mexico all the time. He is in great mental and physical health and a great driver also. I will fly anywhere with him. He has been flying an Aztec for almost 50 years so he wears the thing. Don

My mother is 85, utterly incontinent and knows not who I am. Really healthy too.

The point the OP is making isn't such a bad one, however poorly it's made. The pilot population is getting older. That said, there is a process in place to ensure our elderly pilots are still capable, including medical certification and biennial flight reviews. These can be potentially gamed, but so can anything. Doesn't mean the process is bad.

 

[X3 Skier]

Lots of opinions but few facts as is typical for a forum. Anybody know where to look up accident rates by the age of the operator for cars and planes or boats or balloons or unicycles or any other means of transport?

If the FAA thinks fat people need special monitoring for no rational reason as far as anyone like AOPA and EAA can determine, I assume they could do the same thing for geezers like me but they haven't ......yet. OTOH, they did RAISE the age for ATP mandatory retirement.

Cheers

 

[PW_Plack]

An old geriatric driver trundling along about 20 mph too slow has a ripple effect that makes the conditions unsafe for the rest of us even if they don't directly contribute to accidents.

And none of the responsibility goes to all those other people following too closely or making impulsive maneuvers to pass?

We all know that old drivers are bad drivers. There is no debate there. They also make bad pilots.

We all know troll-speak is a points deduction in a debate.

If we needed biennials and medicals to drive cars, many of the older drivers responsible for the problems would be off the roads. It's a perfectly acceptable system for keeping dangerous pilots out of the skies, provided its enforced.

 

[Everskyward]

End of life is when it makes the least sense to avoid risk.

While that might be true I think we are mostly talking about risk to others rather than to yourself. If at that point you can remember how to do aerobatics in your 310 go out over the water where there are no boats!

 

[Henning]

While that might be true I think we are mostly talking about risk to others rather than to yourself. If at that point you can remember how to do aerobatics in your 310 go out over the water where there are no boats!

Small planes really pose a very minimal hazard to those on the ground, it's rare that we actually take out someone. That said, it's my sworn duty to take as many with me when I go as I can...

 

[Ghery]

Exactly.

The guy was slow because he has a bad back. Obviously he is no longer fit to fly because people with back problems are senile morons incapable of maintaining their membership in the mile high club.

You need a sarcasm smiley to go with that.

I've got a bad back right now and the key reason that is keeping me from flying is that there is NO WAY I could push the 172 back into the hangar by myself. Get this taken care of and I'm back in the air (weather permitting). I think the OP needs a little seasoning...

 

[BobThePilot]

And none of the responsibility goes to all those other people following too closely or making impulsive maneuvers to pass?

If I come across Granddad in his Buick in the left lane crawling along at 50 MPH, that puts me in an unsafe position where I am now forced to slow down to less than the average speed and then pass on the right instead of the left. What am I supposed to do? Just sit in the left lane and not get to work or an important meeting on time?

But we are off topic. My point is that at some point in time, most people reach an expiry date in terms of their abilities that is not reflected in any law that prevents them from flying any further. We have all come across older pilots who while we have enormous respect for them, we privately admit maybe they shouldn't be flying. I'm not talking about everyone, just a few select individuals.

We all know troll-speak is a points deduction in a debate.

Fair enough, I should have said "in my opinion". But in my defense 99% of everything on an internet forum is a personal opinion with no back up documentation or reference material. To those of you who back up their comments with references to the FARs, or to court documents, you're excluded of course but everything else is pretty much "troll speak". This troll accusation is thrown around a little too easily "in my opinion"

 

[Palamedes]

There are several pilots at my local FBO and where I'm doing my training that are easily in their late 80's. One in particular that I'm thinking about flies every day in a 152 around the airport..

He's been flying for 40+ years and flies like a champ. Infact to see him fly you'd never know his age. *shrug* Also, I'm pretty sure if I told him he needed to give up his license he'd punch me in the mouth.. haha No thanks..

The medical works the way it does for a reason.

 

[rottydaddy]

If the pilot observed by the OP were young, but had some problem that made walking and climbing in and out of the plane difficult for him, would that be cause for concern (that said pilot isn't fit to fly)?
My point is that age or even some degree of infirmity is not a reliable indicator of consistently good PIC ability. In the case of this creaky old-timer, as long as he knows his bladder/back/whatever are good for only X hours in the saddle and has planned the flight accordingly, he should be fine... unless he makes the kind of dumb mistake that any much younger pilot might make.

 

[oldShar]

This old hunched over guy came out and made his slow painful way over to a Mooney parked outside the gate. .

Was his name Bob Hoover?

 

[steingar]

Small planes really pose a very minimal hazard to those on the ground, it's rare that we actually take out someone. That said, it's my sworn duty to take as many with me when I go as I can...

Another of the numerous reasons I'm glad I don't live in Florida.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Yeah, and how many BFRs really do that?

So then the responsibility lies with the CFI that fraudulently signs him off, not the octogenarian. I'd suggest that if a CFI is too timid or fearful to speak the truth in matters of safety, they should defer and send the candidate to someone who will.

 

[weirdjim]

Prove the age at which pilots become dangerous and you can push for the new regulation.

It used to be a story passed around when you got your CFI (perhaps an OWT?) about the terrible 3's

3 hours - just starting to get a little of the hang of it and made a stupid fast mistake too close to the ground..

30 hours - damn near a private pilot and wanting to take the girlfriend out for an illicit ride to show her the house...stallspin

300 hours - brand new instrument ticket in your pocket and smack into some weather you'd never seen before (and wished you'd never see again)

3000 hours - TSO'd Superman ... knows everything.

30 years old - the graph peaks for accidents around this age.

Take it for what it is worth.

Jim
(Who became a septuagenerian about a month ago and is willing to take you young snapperwhippers up and have some fun.)

 

[creweite]

Go take a look at the UFO website, all folks that fly or have flown airplanes at age 80 or above! I have been to a couple of their events and have never seen anyone that would fit the description of geriatric, old maybe but capable.

 

[mcmanigle]

So then the responsibility lies with the CFI that fraudulently signs him off, not the octogenarian.

The medical works the way it does for a reason.

Yes, as far as I can tell the BFR and medical are about exactly the system we'd want to keep unsafe-because-of-age-related-deficiency out of the skies.

And yes, there are ways to "game the system" by lying to the doc or CFI, but I think we can agree that there are few palatable ways for the system to protect against lying pilots; a pilot with dementia hiding it from the doc vs a 50-hour private pilot accepting an IFR clearance are the same thing: a lie and danger that's on them.

How many other recreational activities have a built-in system where your mental capacity is evaluated every two years by two different professionals?

 

[Henning]

If you've been flying for a few decades, it's unlikely you have to lie to the doc or CFI to get signed off. There are enough out there who will keep you flying on a third class and sign off a flight review with suboptimal results.

 

[jmn444]

One of the fastest and best drivers in one of my autocross groups is over 70. He rides a scooter out to do corner flagging because walking isn't good anymore. I make no judgement about a persons capabilities based on age, you just never know.

 

[Dan Thomas]

The driver that have scared me the most, and the most often, have been young drivers. That goes for pilots, too. The young are far more arrogant, aggressive, and risk-tolerant than the older guys, except for a few older guys that never properly matured, never set aside the bad attitudes.

Young people are immortal. Just ask them. They already know it all. I did, when I was young. Until I scared myself a few times and found out just how dumb I really was.

Dan

 

[Everskyward]

Check up on some of these people in 10 years. No one said it happens at the same age to everyone but everyone has an age where it will, if they are still living. Hopefully they give up flying (and driving) voluntarily before that.

 

[ebetancourt]

Interesting thread, in spite of some of the silliness. There is some danger in comparing airplane pilots (specifically excluding helicopter pilots) with car drivers. The required knowledge is different, and the usefulness of "fast" reflexes is different. The car driver issue could easily be taken care of with driving simulators and real testing. The driving test in the US is a joke. I am for retesting on a regular basis... of all drivers. I have reached an age where when I complain about an old ____ driver, my wife frequently chimes in with, "I bet he/she is younger than you."

There are many reasons for poor performance in both driving and flying. Lack of practice, not stretching during that practice, I suspect are a big part of it. Some of those bad old drivers were once bad young drivers. Airplane pilots don't need super fast reflexes. They do need good judgement and basic skills. None of the recent 121 stupid pilot tricks were with pilots in their 70s, much less 80s. Asiana, AF, Colgan, the commuter at Lex, ...

It would be nice if BFRs were better at weeding out a lack of basic skills, but hey, some of those CFIs don't have them either. I personally don't think there is an age that works particularly well. I know a family with 5 living siblings and three have Alzheimer's. Of the three that do, NONE have reached 60 yet. One no longer functions normally, two are getting worse quickly. Really sad, but is 50 something therefore the right age to take away the medical?

It has to remain performance based not age based. If BFRs and medicals aren't working fix them, but trying to set a specific age never will.

 

[kontiki]

I think ideally fitness to fly should be a performance based evaluation. You never know about someones genes, medical conditions, diseases, currency or how well they take care of themselves.

 

[Shepherd]

I'm only 64, but concerned (translation: idiot) friends keep asking me how long I'm going to keep flying.
My answer: Right up until the plane kills me.
I use a similar answer when they ask me about riding my motorcycles.

 

[RV10flyer]

I'm only 64, but concerned (translation: idiot) friends keep asking me how long I'm going to keep flying.
My answer: Right up until the plane kills me.
I use a similar answer when they ask me about riding my motorcycles.

Very good answer! My FIL rides at 69. I just tell to be careful and have fun. It sure beats the heck out of internet or xw puzzles.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Is it reasonable to think that Steve Wittman could have survived the flutter incident triggered by the aileron fabric coming loose if he had been younger (say, 85) and sharper?

 

[Shepherd]

Very good answer! My FIL rides at 69. I just tell to be careful and have fun. It sure beats the heck out of internet or xw puzzles.

I had an uncle who rode up until he was 88. Quit when he could no longer pick up the Goldwing if it fell over. Wouldn't settle for a lesser bike.