Gear Failure - Grass or Pavement?

[Matthew]

And often when a pilot makes decisions in an apparent effort to save the plane, and fails, the occupants perish.
All of us, I am certain, are familiar with far too many examples of this. This is amplified when it comes to piston twins, but even in a single acts like trying to "stretch the glide" to a bad result are not uncommon.

Thanks, but I'm sticking with my belief that the instant anything serious goes wrong my insurance company has made me a binding offer to purchase the plane at hull loss value. And my job is to get me, and everyone in it, safely on the ground no matter what. Even if it requires closing both throttles and putting it down wings level, straight ahead.

A guy I used to know said, "Never fall in love with anything with a spark plug." I think that's the attitude that helps pilots say, "It's the insurance company's plane, but I'm still the pilot and have pax to take care of."

 

[Lowflynjack]

Thanks, but I'm sticking with my belief that the instant anything serious goes wrong my insurance company has made me a binding offer to purchase the plane at hull loss value.

When my friend crashed in his Lance, the State Trooper asked me where we wanted the plane moved. I told him we didn't care. My friend no longer owned an airplane, the insurance company did.

 

[SkyDog58]

I agree wholeheartedly that if trying to save the aircraft puts you or your pax more in harms way, say screw the plane and let the insurance company worry about it. And if it’s a common mass produced part 23 plane, that’s easy to say. But, I bet the decision gets harder and one would be more prone to foolish heroics if the plane is a rare classic or an EAB that the pilot built. Circumstances can easily cloud one’s judgment.

 

[MauleSkinner]

That seems self evident.

But often when a pilot makes decisions in an apparent effort to save the plane, and fails, the occupants perish.
All of us, I am certain, are familiar with far too many examples of this. This is amplified when it comes to piston twins, but even in a single acts like trying to "stretch the glide" to a bad result are not uncommon. And how many pre-2010 Cirrus fatalities were the result of the pilot not deploying the CAPS? Were they trying to save the airframe?

Thanks, but I'm sticking with my belief that the instant anything serious goes wrong my insurance company has made me a binding offer to purchase the plane at hull loss value. And my job is to get me, and everyone in it, safely on the ground no matter what. Even if it requires closing both throttles and putting it down wings level, straight ahead. I couldn't give a tinkers damn about saving the airframe, engines or props from being written off.

The problem, IMO, is that most people haven’t thought about how or when to properly crash an airplane ahead of time, and therefore can’t make the decision to crash when it becomes necessary.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I agree wholeheartedly that if trying to save the aircraft puts you or your pax more in harms way, say screw the plane and let the insurance company worry about it. And if it’s a common mass produced part 23 plane, that’s easy to say. But, I bet the decision gets harder and one would be more prone to foolish heroics if the plane is a rare classic or an EAB that the pilot built. Circumstances can easily cloud one’s judgment.

As someone who has been in two crashes, one as PIC, one as a passenger, I can tell you I loved my classic Luscombe right up until the moment the engine quit.

I always laugh at stories about a pilot trying to avoid a 'school bus full of kids'. That's because that school bus looks hard! Your self preservation kicks in very hard when things go wrong and you'd better have practice getting that stick forward because all of you instincts will want you to pull up.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I always laugh at stories about a pilot trying to avoid a 'school bus full of kids'.

Not really funny, but a pilot did a stall spin into a soccer field next to TTF - the witnesses said the pilot did everything he could to avoid hitting people on the ground even though he had no control at all.

(NTSB concluded that a high speed pass over the runway was made just a little too low resulting in a prop strike - the attempted go around didn't work. 3 dead. )

 

[Matthew]

A lot of people on the ground say, "He tried to avoid hitting xxx."

Happened at my local field a long time ago, when I was a student. Plane took off into low IFR, overloaded, drove it into the ground, crashed into a yard, slid into a house, and dumped fuel into the first floor. Mom and kids were home at the time but were unhurt. The local landscape crew commented on the news that the pilot tried to avoid hitting anything or anyone on the ground.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...=20050126X00106&AKey=1&RType=Summary&IType=FA

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...ID=20050126X00106&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

Can't remember all the details - a husband and wife were heading on an anniversary vacation, the pilot had two other buddies tagging along for a golf trip. 5 people, luggage, and golf clubs - it all added up.

 

[Maxnr]

I can't believe that no one has suggested that the runway be foamed. (Not recommended)

 

[Zeldman]

Back when I was a flight instructor I also flew forest fire patrol in West Virginia. In the southwestern part of the state 2 coal trains hit head on. Big crash. Lots of news helicopters on location filming. One of the helicopters had an engine failure. The area was pretty heavily forested, and there was only 2 clear spots to land. One was a school yard full of play ground equipment, and the other was a empty parking lot for a coal mine.

The pilot did whatever helicopter pilots do for landing without power and also set up a pretty normal base to final pattern to land. The base leg of the pattern had him heading straight for the school buildings, then he turned and made a short final to the empty parking lot where he landed safely.

Of course with all the news helicopters around, it was recorded from several angles. Everyone, even the governor of WV praised the pilot for turning at the last minute to miss the school buildings.

I had a chance to talk to the pilot a couple weeks later and I asked about the school buildings. He said, ''What school buildings.?? I saw the parking lot and that was where I decided to land.''

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I worry more about protecting my own butt. The airplane is replaceable. I will pick paved runway every time because its predictable in outcome. Grass may be better for the airplane sometimes but it may also be much worse for me... so pavement it is.

 

[GRG55]

The problem, IMO, is that most people haven’t thought about how or when to properly crash an airplane ahead of time, and therefore can’t make the decision to crash when it becomes necessary.

Could not agree more.

Running through scenarios, just as a mental exercise (such as the proverbial just-before-takeoff "What will I do if the engine quits" options) is part of recurrent training, imo. We are training to make the best decision, if it is forced upon us moments later.

 

[GRG55]

Not really funny, but a pilot did a stall spin into a soccer field next to TTF - the witnesses said the pilot did everything he could to avoid hitting people on the ground even though he had no control at all.

(NTSB concluded that a high speed pass was made just a little too low resulting in a prop strike - the attempted go around didn't work. 3 dead. )

"NTSB concluded that a high speed pass was made just a little too low resulting in a prop strike..."

Which means the pilot DIDN'T do all he could to avoid hitting people on the ground.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"NTSB concluded that a high speed pass was made just a little too low resulting in a prop strike..."

Which means the pilot DIDN'T do all he could to avoid hitting people on the ground.

The high speed pass was down the runway. Not over the park.

He clipped the prop on the runway, tried to go around (I assume to put the gear down) and spun into the park which is east of the airport.

 

[GRG55]

The high speed pass was down the runway. Not over the park.

He clipped the prop on the runway, tried to go around (I assume to put the gear down) and spun into the park which is east of the airport.

Runway or not, was there a technical reason he had to do a high speed pass low to the ground? If not, my statement stands. It was unnecessary, and ultimately imperiled people in the plane and on the ground.